Umberlin

A Witch Hunter is an interesting concept, but a hard counter that makes magic users useless the second they run across one is not interesting at all.

I . . .took the martial training being a potential lead as more along the lines of the Monk styled partial artist, or something along those lines, even if not a Monk or eastern in natural, drawing upon spiritual power to enhance their own abilities. I didn't take it as the Fighter can suddenly and inexplicably cast fieballs.

Always a nice touch when it's actually practical, the question is . . . is it practical for the setting, story and general form of game? I suppose we'll find out.

A well done setting can have the more traditional races and creatures. Still, a well done setting can completely get rid of the traditional and still be just as engaging. It's all about the direction they want to take. Personally I really am ready for something new visually. The amount of traditional content RPGs I've come across, or traditional content RPGs 'with a twist' that I've come across is ungodly massive in comparison to the unfortunately few that really tried to break from tradition.

I'd heard about this before, but I feel no less sick knowing that such underhanded people exist. It reminds me of why series I loved stopped getting updates and sequels because publishers ate the developers, their properties and destroyed them or deformed them or ran them into the ground or, I'm looking at you Sierra, sat on the rights and did nothing with them refusing to sell them even to the original creators for the longest time.

True enough, but it's still neat to think about.

Try out the quest for glory series, they'd actually prevent you from resting, not just in certain situations, but if your character really just didn't feel tired (they had a pool of stamina) or if they'd rested recently. While it didn't use the systems like, say, DnD Spell Books and such, it did prevent you from just going on forever and never having to worry about your resources. Then, of course, some places/situations you outright could not rest no matter what. - Actually I want to talk about NWN, because, I believe, it was either Darkness Over Daggerford (my absolute favorite addition to NWN) or HotU (possibly both, since it's been awhile) that would in fact spawn enemies on you when you tried to rest at times. I bring this up because the above mentioned Quest for Glory series did have that in addition to rest limitations, in that resting in the wild could result in a monster or bandit coming across you.

Isn't that a bit actiony? IMHO should be at least partially done automatically by the character, if you set him up to provide counterspelling support. An interesting question but if we're already talking real time combat that you can pause, one can understand why systems may be in place to take advantage of the pausing - like countering. Then again Quest for Glory, which what I posted above was done in real time and there was plenty of time to counter without the game being too 'actiony' though I wouldn't dismiss your concern either.

That has it's merits too, if implemented and controlled just right.

The resting every three minutes thing should just not be possible in the first place, if you try to rest too soon you should be getting a, 'you're not tired' or 'you don't feel like resting now' message to prevent you from just resting constantly and completely obliterating the limiting mechanics that are in place.

Only if they're done right. No junior dragons for low level adventurers. If you come across a dragon it should be exactly what I remember reading in the books; insanely intelligent, skilled in magic and physically powerful and mobile. A Dragon shouldn't be a run of the mill encounter but one of those things you have to plan for so very, very well or face certain doom. Also nothing frustrates me more than a Dragon actually coming down and landing for the melee players to hit it. Because if you can fly and bombard people that are trying to kill you from a safe distance - you would. Especially if you're an intelligent thinking creature that can strategize. Fighting a Dragon should be multi-layers, and involve having to figure out a way to cancel out its mobility before even thinking of really engaging it. Even then it should be the sort of fight that leaves you wishing you'd never messed with the thing, regardless of reward. And at absolutely no point in any game should low level adventurers be succesfully taking on a Dragon. Ever. Yes I have an axe to grind.

I always though the time limit in Quest for Glory II was well thought out. For example the Elementals would show up by a certain day, but they wouldn't destroy the city instantly, you had a few days of them rampages through the city to stop them before they grew too powerful to stop and you got the bad end animation of your character watching the city be destroyed. You had time limits on quite a few things in Quest for Glory II that never actually got in the way of play and left plenty of time to do things on the side. Oddly you could actually miss some aspects and still continue on, but without those things to help you later. Possible buy harder via your own actions. I typically managed to do everything needed with time to spare, and, frustratingly, I'd actually have to wait some time in Rasier waiting for time to pass . . . because I'd managed to do everything . . . just waiting for the Guards to come arrest me. The timer on the final area of the game, while present, and you could fail, made sense because you only had until he was done with the riual that summoned Iblis. A tangible time limit. Those are always preferable.

The Magic User in me wants a good ol' Wizard's Tower or a deceptively humble house that's not on the inside as it appears on the outside. An NWN2 style keep would be welcome as well. The most important thing to me, however, rather what the home is . . . would be that you can upgrade it, improve on and make it your own in some manner - even from a style point of view, much like the decorator in NWN2 or, er, Fable 3 (*ducks*) could decorate your home in different themes.

There's a lot here I'd agree with. I'd much rather be running a Linux system and, whily I'm not currently, I have nothing but support for those that do. In that vein I have nothing but support for any stretch goal that enables a linux version. I hope it's reached for the sake of those that prefer to use Linux. That's why it's a stretch goal and not a part of the base.

I wonder if you can't combine the idea of a mana pool-like system with a memorization system. For example think of the idea of the more potent spells as those that require memorization, that you only get a very limited number of uses from, however, combine that with a second class of spells that use a mana pool-like system, that are much, much weaker, but can be used more consistently, You could definitely make use of a specialization oriented system that suggested you needed to either branch out, or specialize, depending on your play style and goals for your character. However you'd specialize your weaker mana pool-like spells separately from your memorized spells. They might share a school system, but they'd cover different realms of that system. The Memorized spells would be your bigger, more complex spells. The mana pool-like spells would be simple spells that at their best might compare to cantrips, while still putting a limiter on them like a slow regenerating mana pool-like system. Though I'd prefer a small mana pool to the large ones. - You could take the second tier of your poll, and, again, use both. Have the very specific styled spells be your memorized spells, specific named spells that you can only memorize so many of at a time. In contrast your mana pool-like spells would use the upgrade of older spells. In my mind this means specialization would be even more limiting for the mana poo-style spells in this context where you have both. Because the memorized spells would be your variety, even if you've specialized in an entire school, but your mana pool-like using spells would be limited to one or two spells that you could highly customize and upgrade to your needs. Think of these cantrip level mana pool-like spells as being like your character in that you'd need to level them up toward different functions. Example: Perhaps your cantrip-like spell is a little ball of electricity. At a base you launch it toward an enemy and it does very little damage. Now, you could upgrade its damage to an extent, but your memorized spells would always do far, far more damage (or be better at any given/equivalent) effect we're talking about, we're just using a damage spell in the example). However you could also customize the ball of electricity to split itself when you launch it or to become a swarm of projectiles or to track enemies or explode or pierce or what have you. You'd only be able to upgrade it so much as you leveled, but you'd be able to customize it and combine upgrades to an extent to your character's needs. Regardless they'd always be weaker than memorized spell equivalents, and used not as a main means of attack (or whatever the function of the spell) but as a sort of natural wand. In fact I'm not entirely sure the system should be, 'those one or two wands (or a staff, or whatever you're thinking) you're taught to craft that have a slowly regenerating power supply in them' that you can upgrade and augment as you gain levels and different forms of upgrade are made available to you. You could treat them as weapon sets, and prevent you from equipping new equipment in battle, but allow a character to switch between those two weapon sets letting you change between two of these effects. Obviously much more limited than Memorized casting, but pointedly so. In contrast your memorized spell of 'the big squishy energy fist of doom' would be a named, already customized - by another mage long ago - spell that you have to memorize. You'd memorize charged of it much like in DnD. The spell's function would always be the same. However it would also be much more potent, and always be so. - I'm not entirely sure you have to go with an Arcane/Divine model at all . . . what if you made more base distinctions than that? I always felt, for example elemental (obvious) from arcane (the more wierd non-elemental effects and spells) and divine from nature. Regardless I'd want there to be much less cross over than you saw in DnD. I'd definitely want spells in one area to be wholly unique from spells in another, especially where memroized spells are concerned.

I always felt like the Quest for Glory series actually, strangely for not being a pure RPG series, handled countering magic very well. This was likely because they were part puzzle game, as well as RPGs. In QfG:II you had to pass a test to be admitted to W.I.T., in GfQ:III you had a magic duel with a Shaman where you had to counter his spells with the correct spells, and only could only use each spell you had once, in QfG:IV you were ambushed by fairies and had to duel them, again using your spells intelligently. And of course the ending battles always required you use your abilities to partially fight, and partially solve, the battles. The actual implementations were very interesting. Reversal This is the first 'obvious' counter spell you get. You cast it, it lasts for a period of time, and it reflects any spell directly cast at you back at the attacker. In theory your expertise in the spell should determine the power of spell it can reflect but that never came into play in the game that I remember. Calm The Calm spell is actually one of the first you get. And is a great example of a counter spell, but not an obvious one meant 'just' for countering. You see its first apparent use you're introduced to is calming creates that try to harm you. In combat it doesn't work, the person or creature is too worked up (or they'll just calmly eat you), but if you catch someone unaware you can use it to relax them to sleep, and other such uses. It won't work on everything (no calming the undead) but that's not the point. However, as you learn more about magic over the course of the games you find something neat. You see, it can calm things besides people and creatures. For example you can use it to calm a fire, as one example. And, indeed, you do eventually get into situations where you battle other magic users who realize you have a spell of Reversal, so they try indirect means to kill you. They set the ground beneath you on fire, for example. The Calm spell is a counter to that. Dazzle The Dazzle spell is another spell introduced that has a dual use you don't realize up front. The obvious use at first is that it creates a blinding light, temporarily blinding those nearby. It's used in several ways, maybe to keep a monster that's chasing you from catching you, for example. Later you use it to blind guards so that you can sneak past them. Eventually, however, you realize it can also dispell illusions. A Shaman creatures an illusionary snake in the third game, and you use the spell to disrupt his illusion. It's a counter to such things, though it couldn't dispell a more tangible thing like a person that's been truly transformed. Aura Aura was pretty up front. It's a magic user's protection from powerful undead, it won't destroy them or keep they, or lesser undead, away but it can prevent their life draining aura from slowly draining away your life. A counter to life draining magics. It lasts for an amount of time after cast, dependant on your skill in the spell. Resistance This is actually an advanced spell that you don't get as soon. It resists elemental damage, but that means reduce, not prevent. It's more like armor against elemental damage. Juggling Lights This is a maintained spell of sorts, it only lasts for as long as your character keeps it up and, at first, doesn't really seem to do much. Whoo juggling lights. Well, outside of the spell you learn being a joke, it's also a light in the literal darkness. It makes things lighter and acts as a counter to magics that shroud an area in darkness. You also had other spells like detect magic, which could tell you if something was magical or affected by magic. It's an interesting spell because in theory if you got more skill in it you'd receive more information on what you sensed . . . but the game never did that. There was also the Trigger spell, often used in conjuction with the Detect Magic spell because it activated magical enchantments and the like. For example a spell on a Bell to make the Bell ring would go off when Trigger was cast upon it. It could also reveal magically hidden objects to the physical eye for all to see, as well as other similar uses. It literally triggered or released spells. This was made more complex with the introduction of the magical staff because trigger would release all the magic a staff had been imbued with, essentially causing it to violently explode due to all the magic being released at once. These were interesting ways of countering and dealing with magic via spells, in some cases, that actually would have had very different uses until you applied your brain to realize that could actually be used for secondary purposes to counter magical effects of sort. It added depth to the game and was more interesting than simply, "the counter spell to this spell that is only used to counter this spell" though . . . some did unfortunately suffer from that (Aura, Resistance . . . ).

If nothing else I do understand where you're coming from with this. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

And people wonder why my general view of some, if not most, publishers is about the same as my view of lawyers. Not evil, really, just . . . bleh. Some people just make you feel unclean for knowing about their existence, you know?

I feel like any type of encounter, whether it be combat or not, have some point to it. A bunch of wandering zombies in the forest that are just 'there'? I don't really want to see that. Having the undead involved in a storyline though? A good one? Even a side story, so to speak? I'm for that, as well as any sort of creature, for any reason, combat or otherwise, as well as it's well handled and thought provoking. I've never been much for the MMO style monsters just wandering around in a field stuff though. Things need to have purpose. In short, if they're there, "Why are they there?"

Yeah, yeah it's important to me. In and out of the game, to find those little extras that make the world what it is. If you're making a role-playing game, a real role-playing game you need that information to make a character that really fits in the world you're playing in. You can't do that unless you have some basis. Otherwise you just hop into a game, and the storyline drags you along by the nose with no care for what sort of character you're playing. To make a background about who your character is, what they do and everything else you need that supposed fluff. Otherwise your character might as well have appeared out of thin air.

Good point about the poll being more about how gritty or not gritty . . . - On the point of your community, though, who knows what goes on behind closed doors. Sad but true things, that's what, far more often than most decent people would prefer. I'd agree it wouldn't be realistic for such things to be happening constantly on the street, unless you stumbled onto a village of cannibals, then I guess it'd make sense that they'd not find eating people offensive. Bleh. The behind closed doors point was, you know, pointed, if you find something terrible, especially in a area in the game world with laws against 'whatever bad thing we're talking about' then it would be hidden. A mystery, a crime, you've unraveled and so on and so forth. Then of course there are questions of what the game world considered moral and immoral. A good example is slavery, since anyone that played Morrowind knows slavery was just a reality in that particular area. If something isn't illegal then, well, it wouldn't be hidden.I suppose what I'm getting at are that such things, if present at all, are a sort of case by case basis in regard to what's proper for the game world, and, of course, different areas of the game world that might have different laws from one another. I'm not really disagreeing with you obviously, just talking.

Attacking a metal golem with a dagger..... it may take a while to break it down. Heh, pointed. I'd agree. - I do think there should be some immunities. Physical and Magical. When I play PnP and come across that 'one guy' that has to specialize evocation and use nothing but fire spells . . . I want him, so badly, to come across that thing that fire does nothing to. Just as I don't think a Wizard should over specialize and min-max I think the same of ranged and melee characters and their potential damage types. You should be preparing for combat, making use of a couple of weapon sets. You really shouldn't be able to go into combat with X weapon, that, for whatever statistical reason, is the best weapon and just bulldoze your way through. The game should force you to prepare tactically and think on your toes tactically. Strategy and planning, thinking, should be the names of the game. Not rushing into a ominous room head first with an expectation to survive every time 'because'.

I couldn't be happier that they said that. Thank you so much for saying every single word of this.

Both can have their place, if done right, and hybrid models have worked before too. It's hard for me to say what I'd want to see specifically because I know they can all work quite well - it's a matter of the Developer and their dedication to making it work right. I'm curious, certainly, to see what they'll do. A level based, class based with some skill/ability/feat type management intermingled . . . would not surprise me though.

I like crafting systems in the first, but I can respect your stance on them. I actually wanted to talk about the spell improvement point you made. I think it's either a good idea or a bad idea, depending on how the rest of the game works. For example if you can melee without cost, auto-attacking for lack fo a better term, for decent damage and never run out of a resource, thus attacking continuosly forever without penalty . . . I'm not sure a limiter like backfire has a place. If there are limiters for all forms of combat though, then a limiter like backfire definitely has a place. Personally I like limiters for all forms of combat, that make you have to expend energy of some sort for a given action. I never felt like an action should be free whether it be swinging a sword or spreading an oil slick along the ground. I say this because I like it when I have to think before I leap, so to speak, and I really think having to pick and choose what you do, and when, is one, out of several, ways to ensure a character has to think and create tactics to tackle a given challenge. I like the idea of cost, but if there is cost for one there needs to be cost for all. If one person can simply run out of 'whatever their main mode of challenge interaction is' then all should be able to run out. In my my if you're that guy that has a resource that can run out, and you have another guy along with you that can just keep going forever . . . there's something wrong - unless the guy that can keep going forever is much, much weaker . . . which wouldn't be very fun. I imagine it's really hard to make these systems. The more I think about it the more I realize the complexity and laters that need to go into them to reward and challenge the player. Anyways, sorry, rambling, but your note on Spell Improvement just made me think about that.