Badmojo

Hmm, seeing a lot more sock puppeting in here with new members. Agreed, creating nothing. but stereotypes is bad, but avoiding them is just as bad. Then we have anti-stereotypes...stereotypes. Like someone mentioned earlier about women having a 150 IQ, is completely self sufficient, talks like a sailor, and says things that constantly remind the player she needs no help, showing no skin/sexiness, oh and has to save the guy every so often(a dude in a woman's body basically). That is actually worse in my mind, its basically PC ok stereotypes. THIS! And? Define huge? What PERCENTAGE plays RPG's compared to men? I know there are women who play, I know plenty who do. However, it will not be that large compared to the male players. I would love to see some actual numbers to settle this. I am sure your about to pull the ESA numbers that showed 49% are women gamers. Sorry, that number is BS. They included everything that had GAMES in the title, facebook, flash games, mobile games..etc. Strip out the casual crowd and focus on only the hardcore..especially RPG's and it will be a LOT smaller, I doubt it would be in the double digits. Now, if we pulled a poll of men to women KS backers for PE, what do you honestly think it would be? I am fairly confident the vast majority (like 90%) will be men. I could be wrong, but doubt it. Its not half the damn worlds population playing it, its a very very very small subset of half the worlds population playing it. You talk like if they change the game to this all inclusive package that the majority of women will suddenly JUMP in to play. No they won't. The majority of women have very different tastes. If I compare my hardcore RPG female friends to my casual female facebook game playing friends. Which group do you think is much bigger? The majority of casual facebook friends are just NOT INTERESTED in this hobby. If you build it, they WILL NOT come. Catering to every group is stupid (and bad) when the vast majority is a specific demographic. There are plenty of games that cater to everybody and they are such forgetable drizzle. The old games did not worry about trying to cater to everybody, they had a fixed demographic and that is why they are excelent. Changing it into a PC game is not what I think the majority of backers wants. Sorry white knight/fem, this is not about porn or sex, this about ideology and those of us who are sick of people like you shoving your PC utopia world view down everybody's throats. Well, the new armour is UNSEXY as hell. It went from one spectrum to the other. You mean the sexless person the character is now? PC IS bad, games always suffer because of them. Insecurities? Nah, Just sick of these threads white knight, but your side keeps bringing them up. So I will keep responding. These threads should be closed/moved to another forum, but I think the mods like to see everybody trolling each other.

Sorry, those squigles do not help. It can still be a guy in drag, the only thing that even hints at a woman is the makeup, remove that and there is no difference. There isn't much boobs there to highlight, its in a V shape for the upper body (post boob area) is way to subtle and barely noticeable unless your paying attention. Now, when they are turned to sprites you will not see them AT ALL and all of them will most likely look like the same as a male or female unless all the guys have beards which I hope they are NOT going to do for every guy.

Ok wait, one minute the white knights have been bitching that RPG's are only created for men, that the games are all sexist, no games are created for women! Now you are saying they have traditionally been gender neutral? Which is it? Besides, I was pointing to creating games TARGETED to the dominate demographic which will be men. Most women are just not interested in old school RPG's, no matter what the KS/fem group cries. Most women have different tastes, are there exceptions? of course. I have met them, however they are the exceptions and NOT the rule. The argument to change the game so it will draw in more female members is stupid. They are just NOT interested in this. However, trying to draw in more player from different groups is always bad, it turns dull and stupid. Look at bio(ea)ware games to see what happens when you try to please everybody and not offend anybody. Now compare that too the witcher 2 which is decidely made for a particular demographic. Sorry, s(he) is ugly. When they are put in small sprite form in the game you wont be able to tell if its a guy or a girl. There is NOTHING wrong with making characters sexy/attractive. I am sorry if this offends some prudes and white knights, but honestly even if obsidian caves to this, you will complain about something else about females, and then something else, and something else until the game turns into a PC wet dream game. I have no interest playing that game thank you very much.

I think you've missed the basic point about this discussion. It's about the "over" part. Exaggerated sexuality that doesn't make any sense. Heavily slanted towards one gender. 2 posts and this thread? Sock puppet

*citation needed* I've always known a wide female audience for old school rpgs. I'm not just talking about friends, I'm talking about going to cons and game stores and meeting plenty of women who absolutely loved such games. Are there as many as men, no, but the audience is hefty enough that it isn't one to be ignored. Most rpgs I've ever known have been pretty gender neutral in terms of audience. It gets a bit biased due to the high male to female ratio when it comes to development, but it's understandable in that regard. That doesn't mean you can put up your "girls not allowed" sign and cry about the lack of stupid looking armor. i don't know how rectifying bad design is considered feminists making things pc and bland because her breasts are less obvious and therefore she is completely ugly now i guess maybe i should say that i really like breasts. they're really great and i like looking at them because it makes me feel good inside. one less obvious pair of breasts in a game that is not about sex for the sake of better design isn't going to ruin the game and if i really wanted to go see nice boobies i'd just do a quick google search or something. also, jasede, i think the only reason why we're still talking about it is because people are crying about changing the design. that's what i got when i skimmed the original thread. *shrug* I never said girls are not allowed, I just said it should focus on its main majority of players which will most likely be men. Lets take a pizza analogy, say 90% of a group loves pepperoni pizza, but only (I am being generous with this number)10% hate pepperoni and wants cheese. Now, does it seem fair change the WHOLE pizza to cheese? Hell, even making half the pizza to cheese seems overkill to please less than 10% of the pizza eaters. Ok, not a great analogy, but it shows my point I hope. So there are women who play RPG's, I know many who do. However, that does not mean I want them changing the things I like to suite their tastes which are DIFFERENT than mine and the majority of the players. On a side note, I keep seeing chain mail bikinni mentioned over and over. NOBODY has said anything about chainmale bikinni's, that is something the white knights throw up to distract. We are talking about full body armour. The problem I have with removing boobarmour is that it turns the women into a dude in drag. Sorry, she is ugly as hell now. Do not get me wrong, I do think the boobarmour was a *bit* over the top, but at least she was obviously a she and it made her feminine, now she is some sexless thing. Might be a man, might be a women. Now every armoured character will be like this, male or female. Of course, the armour debate is BS, its just a distraction, the WK just want to remove any women attractive appearance/sexuality in the whole game. Reread the other threads, they do want ugly women (seriously, no joke) and do not want attractive women because its offensive and not "real"...whatever the hell that means in a fictional fantasy setting.

I would love for once to have a game blessedly free of those transmutated humans that Victorian writers have cursed literature with. Werewolves and vampires are not a product of Victoria era. Stoker did not come up with his Dracula out of thin air. Vampires are ancient mythological beings. In slavic mythilogy, for instance, a vampire is a revenant, a corrupt soul which returned to the body to prey on the living. This is only one of many myths about blood drinking or flesh eating spirits and demons. Werewolves also come in many flavors: from cursed men to warlocks (much like native american skin-walkers) to huge wolf-like man-eating beasts. So "vampire" or "werewolf" does not mean it must be a wimpy representation of such beings for teenagers. Yea, vampire mythology date back a long time and cultures all across the world have their own vampire type myths/legends. Here is wiki on it.

I was pointing out that it is a sub genre targeted to FEMALE readers which there is NOTHING wrong with that. Old School RPG's were/are targeted to male players because that is the core players that have always been there. There is nothing wrong with creating a game targeted to a specific demographic. There are games created for men, there are games created for women, trying to create a game for both and you lose something in the process in the trade off. Now, I am sure someone is about to come on here and say that women gamers make up half the gamer population. Sorry, but that is BS, that number comes from an ESA messed up poll where they included ANYTHING with a game in the title, from facebook games, to mobile games, to flash games. If it had been something like, how many RPG games like PST, ID, BG..etc. I am pretty sure the percentage would be in the single digits. I admit there is no proof and would love to see an actual REAL survey taken. However, going by the men to women ratio I have seen on boards, and other sources seem to confirm this. I am NOT saying women should be discounted, but I think trying to change THE WHOLE GAME to not offend/be inclusive is a recipe to make the game less fun. Also, the people who are arguing to change the game are NOT EVEN WOMEN mostly, but a white knight trolls and prudes. I suspect some did not even contribute to the kickstarter, obsidian really should have had a section for KS donators only to filter out the KS trolls who are not even buying the game, just trolling websites and shoving political agenda and to prevent sock puppetting the boards.

I actually like vampires, just not the twilight types. Damn twilight to a thousand torturous deaths for what they have done to vampires. Vampires were cool dangerous badasses, I want vampires to go back to that. I also want a whole bunch of different types of vampiric like creatures. Here is what I wrote on the vampire thread about it.

No, I said they caved to pressure. Sure they said they were going to change it anyway...right after they showed the original Armour and the WK's came on and demanded it be changed. If they were not going to use that Armour then they would not have showed it and would have showed the changed one instead. It is only AFTER the the WK's troll pressure to change it that they suddenly want to change it for historic accuracy. Yea sure. Common sense would tell said person they should not be an idiot and try and fight monsters, powerful mages, gods...or other big bad things. Also, common sense would tell them to wear NO ARMOUR since it is restrictive, slows you down, and would be a death magnet for mages throwing lighting/firballs at them. So much for common sense. Nope, trying to not offend anyone is guaranteed to turn the game into a horrible bland disney game. The fun of the old games is that it did not worry about pissing this or that group off (this is before the ESRB nanny came out), they created what they wanted and people bought it or didn't. This is why I supported kickstarters like this, however PC groups are trying to change these "old" style games to suite their political agendas. Do not put this in, it offends me, do not put this in, it offends this group, do not put this in, it insults X group...etc. You cannot make anything good listening to that noise. I put money in to get away from all that BS, if they listen to it, it will become pretty evident (like the obvious changes to the armour design). Pleasing the PC crowd is stupid, because I am sure most of the backers are thinking like me, creating a game with no restrictions including worrying about PC correctness in the game. I seriously will regret putting money into this if it looks like they turned it into a PC pleasing game and probably will not support them again in future projects if it is the case. Well, that was also EA's influence after the first game. I found it funny that the strippers were clothed in the strip bars. What right do you have to speak for your sex in a fictional universe who the vast majority of the audience playing will most likely be male? If that is the case then I demand men treated with dignity and respect in romance novels and not used for women vile sexist fantasies. I also demand romance novels to change the way they right and open up to male audiences. Not sure what your point is. Fanservice? Its something that people (not just men) OBVIOUSLY like. The only people complaining seems to be the prudes.

I never been a fan of human supposed to be the most evil/best beings around, or beings like gods are just powerful reflections of the worst/best of humanity like greek/norse gods. I would rather the gods be alien/strange. I am also not a fan of "angelic" beings, those beings who help people in need/good, but I love demons/devils (no relation to christian versions) who torment, cause discord, make pacts to get souls, seduce, try to gain entry into the mortal plane...,etc. I like the idea of being tempted to go dark side for power. Like I said, I want many different beings of power that each offer different things. Demons are just one type.

I like romances/friendships personally, they give your character a life outside of the all mighty quests.

Fudge, fine lets keep this vitrol thread going and who cares that this is politics and destracting and will probably end up ruining the game for many who do mot want political PC propaganda shoved in there face. Honestly, if this is the direction obsidian chooses, I will seriously regret giving them money. I gave them money to get away from publishers, esrb, and the pc crowd in orde to give them the freedom to create what they want without restrictions. The boobarmour showed a particular direction they were planning and they caved because of some pc trolls spamming the board. If they are changing the original ideas to please this group then this is a slap on the face for those who donated money exactly to get away from this. On a side note, So there are no sexy women waliking around in sexy clothes in real life, only in brothels? Funny, I just walked by a dozens of them just a few minutes ago heading into work.

The reasonable thing to do is to ignore the thread if it bothers you so much. Other people do want to discuss it. You CAN'T ignore it, it is top of the forum page EVERY-SINGLE-DAY and the VERY TITLE is a political advertising stance to one groups view. It is obviously being created by a group who are using sock puppet techniques which is TROLLING by any other definition. This is only distracting and preventing actual game improvement/idea discussion and DIVIDING the community. Also, EVERYTHING HAS ALREADY BEEN SAID. What possible new thing can be said? What? Can anybody name me a single new thing that has not been covered a bazillion times already? Here, let me summarize every single thread - boobarmour is stupid - no its not - yes it is, its unrealistic - its a fictional universe, and women Armour never existed so how do you know its unrealistic - it is oversexualizing the female form, games made primarily for men should not discriminate and be open for women - 0_o wait, what? what is wrong with having attractive women in a game, many of us liked it and the game is being made for the old school group which will be the vast majority male. - you sexist misogynist pig! - you sad pathetic white knight princess saving troll! - then it really goes down hill from there till the thread closes. Then ANOTHER thread pops up continuing this one particular groups view point. Like I said, this is not about game design or improving the game, this is about shoving a political agenda in peoples throats. I am saddened the mods seem fine letting one political view dominate the forum. If people want to discuss it, there is an Way off topic forum for it.

One post and this is posted? Another forum sock puppet.

Fetch quests are used as time sinks, if the fetch quests are interesting that feel like it actually serves a purpose they are fine, but getting a lot of: - get 5 radishes - get a key at the lowest dungeon around to open this wooden chest that nobody thought to bash open - get 7 dragon skulls - get this part, now this part, now this part to make this machine that does x thing - kill 15 rats, bugs, etc - etc And you are ready to punch the developers. Yea, those are the bane of RPG's

The main problem I have had with necromancy in most games is how limited it seemed to be. Bringing a few mindless skeletons, zombies, etc gets pretty old quick. At master level I should be able to raise a small army, yet its always just a couple who maybe are a bit stronger. Then I have not seen a zombie apocalypse like spell, an area affect where when an enemy dies near you, they automatically come back as a zombie to fight along side you until the spell ends. I know its because of the balance issue, but come on, that would be freaking awesome spell. Not to mentions it should be the peak of your ability. One other necromancy power I really want to see is bringing back someone/something as as an undead thrall. With their abilities/intellect/skills intact, but bound to serve you. I am shocked that skyrim is the closest game to do this. Perhaps you can capture the soul (limited soul storage slots) and you can summon their remains (or use another near by body as a containter that changes to the souls host body) anytime and combine the soul/body to serve you until you release the soul. Anybody read/watch naturo? I actually liked the edo tensei which creates this super undead thralls with the reanimated thralls having all their abilities/skills/intelect/personality intecat, but bound to serve the summoner. the ritual is nice, It requires a human sacrifice to perform. Something similar would be interesting.

If we get a summoner sub class for mage, and/or a added function to the priest class which would add more value to them (since we cannot use them to heal anymore, they need to do something to make the class interesting). They have their own powerful being they worship, but that does not prevent them from making contact with other beings (although those in oposition to the priests religion might not show or act negatively), there might be priests that have no fixed being of worship but just acts as a way intermediate to all the beings to those who want to make contact with them. I would like to see different powerful beings have different things they can offer. I want all the different type of beings, from demons, to gods, to incomprehensible ancient lovecraftian beings, to powerful spirits, to beings that defy understanding. I do think each being should offer something, the smaller the request, the smaller the price, the higher the request, the higher the price. The soul could be collateral until the character completes its end of the bargain. If the character dies, they are the toys of the being in question, although they can try to bargain their soul back or offer an alternative payment ("hey, how about two of my companions souls to get mine back?") What do people want? different things, - a thief might worship the goddess of darkness and made a pact to the goddess of darkness, the character gained the ability to be turn invisible, create an area affect of darkness, create shadow minions to fight for her, etc. The character first started with a small invisibility request, in exchange, the character agreed to steal a queens diamond mirror from the castle (very hard) and donated it to the cult that worships her (one time payment), since she has never dealt with the cult before, she has basically no standing so she will not get the power till after she pays. Later, However, the thief has been having trouble fighting a group of warriors that worship the god of light (the goddess of darkness are enemies to the god of light) so the goddess gives the area of darkness free as long as the thief agrees to never work with the servants of light for any reason, the thief has to agree to put her vision up as collateral, if she ever works with a being of light, she loses her eyesight *thief agrees*. Then later the thief is in way over her head when she is trapped in the light gods temple and seriously outnumbered, she makes contact with the goddess, and the goddess agrees to give her very powerful shadow minions to control, BUT anything she steals, half of it has to be donated to the cult (monetary value anyway) AND she has to put her soul as collateral. The thief knows she is getting boned here, but she has no choice(along with nothing to bargain with) and agrees, now she has super powered beings of shadow to call to fight for her. Now, as long as she keeps up her end of the bargain all is good, when she dies her soul is free to do whatever, IF however she breaks the rules, like working with a warrior of light she will go blind, or if she fails to pay half her profit to the cult, when she dies she goes to the goddess, or the goddess might send collectors to help her pass on the the afterlife as a thrall of the goddess. That was an example, Like I said, at low levels its usually a one time payment, but at higher level requests the soul is collateral, the beings usually want some kind of constant payment scheme going on. Sure you could take their soul, or you can turn them into the goose that lays the golden eggs and take their soul later anyway. Take demons/dark beings, at higher level you might ask for the usual faust like bargains, fame, ritches, carnal pleauses, love/lust of a person you desire, power, knowledge, immortality, etc. Depending on what it is, lets say your character is vain and wants to be rich, so the demon offers you a million gold, shapeshifting powers, and immortality in the exchange of having a mortal sacrifice (has to be the same level as the character, so no easy picking random person will do, might also have other requirements like being a noble, beutiful, young, happy..etc) once a month in the demons name. Some really evil characters might take advantage of their shapeshifting powers to replace the person sacrificed. Just some examples, I really like making pacts, but I hope we have different beings to make pacts with.

That's a very broad generalization. No one is actually condemning eroticism. They're condemning instances when it makes no sense. Not having non-sensical chain bikinis /= no sexuality or sensuality at all. oh please, the chain bikinis/boob armour are just the cover stories, every thread like this always degenerates into how women are portrayed, why they are too attractive, why they cannot be exactly like men, why do women have to be treated differently, why is there sex in the game, then it turns to feminists/white knight political debate on the state of feminism, why aren't games designed for women, etc. Its just vitrol of the worst sort. I wish the group who keep bringing these threads up stop being wasting everyone's time and just admit that it has nothing to do with chain mail bikinis or boob armour, but it wants the WHOLE game to be a PC propaganda machine. The worst thing obsidian did was cave to this group with the boob armour debate (I don't believe for a minute the alteration was to make it more realistic), now their boards are getting hammered with this stuff because they won a round.

Yes, because when there are no women around then it's OK to be sexist, just like how it's OK to be racist when there are no minorities around. Sorry, as mentioned in another thread, sexist, misogynist, etc has lost all meaning thanks to the white knights/fems. Its just a shock word used to cause quick emotion gut reactions. No matter what the argument is, the group uses those words like candy to accuse the other side of being sexist/mysogynist/rape supporter..etc. Its right up there with probable cause, no matter what you do or say, your a sexist/mysoganist/rape supporter. Those people who abuse the words are only hurting women in the long run. When someone actually deserves the words, it will be ignored thinking its just the white knight/fem trolls again.

Here they come to save non existing women everywhere.

Another negative I thought about relating to the don't heal normally. Perhaps they cannot heal normally, but they can suck out the life from others to heal their wounds, however like rouge in X-MEN it is always on. Great for combat use, but the person can never touch anybody without special protection clothing. Think of this or other negative affects that would do to a persons mind. They would probably hate their "savior" and might seek revenge to those who made him/her this way. Actually that would be pretty cool, recent dead souls are not a problem, but perhaps older souls have to be tracked to their new bodies and the new host has to be part of the Resurrection ritual. Heh, having someone chase you or one of your companions down to bring back an ancient hero/villian would be cool. Or perhaps to defeat the (insert situation), you need the knowledge/fighting skills of (insert person here), however that persons soul is in the body of a simple child/mother/father..etc. Do you kill that person to bring back the person you need? Souls are a bit of a mystery according to the devs, so maybe new souls are made, there is also souls that fracture, perhaps they divide like cells after a while, with the two halfs evolving in different ways.

Considering the op has not responded or posted anything else seems to support my opinion that this is just a sock puppet of another poster. I suggest closing this thread asap mods and moving it to the off topic forums along with any new threads made in the same vein. It is obvious trolling by a specific group and does nothing but distract from actual PE discussion and divides the community. However, this just shows what has been going on in other websites and why most of us are sick to death of the topic.

Your "new" and the first thing posted is this? S,cuse me if I am a bit (very)suspiscious that your a fem/white knight troll. These posts have been poping up on every website and whenever it is closed another magically pops up again and again. I believe we have some forum socket puppeting going on. For those of you who do not know what that is, that is one person opening multiple accounts and pretending to be different people to push an agenda.

The PC should not be raped, not sure where anybody got that idea from. I don't think anybody wants the PC raped. Nor do I think having a companion be raped either (although, I do think if I am evil I should be able to sell of my companion to slaver or sacrifice them to dark being, or use them in a ritual to give myself immortality..etc) However, I am for having gender references and characters being treated discriminatory or bonuses based on your gender and race in different situations. Sorry, it is a mature game, by its definition that includes mature adult topics like slavery, drugs, violence, kidnapping, rape, etc. The fantasy settings like DA series had rape, the witcher series had rape, the show game of thrones has it. It is not a just a fantasy game, its a mature game. The mature subject matters will most likely be listed in some form on the steam and other digital distribution page. If people buying the game do not read it or learn whats in the game, that falls only on them and nobody else. agreed. Again, as I said before, it does not have to be one or the other, there is no reason it cannot include all the different definitions of mature. Its going to have drugs, slavery..etc. Will seem weird to shy away from sex or sexual encounters, fallout 2 did it pretty good. On a side note, I have no problem with the game goes black during the sex scenes like the fallout 1/2 games, although maybe have the chracters portraits/avatar be dressed (depending on the situation) fit for the occasion.

I am sorry, but I strongly disagree. I have heard and seen this argument before. Horrible thing happened to friend X(or themselves), we should not include or talk about it in media/games because they may relive or is reminded of the horrible moment. Do not think I am insensitive, I do feel for your friend and others like them. However, that is not a good enough reason to not include it. I know people who have been shot, were abused, are addicts, and many other horrible things to them. We might as well remove all that as well because it might traumatize them. No, I am sorry what happened to them, but anybody that affected should not be playing/watching media that has it in it and should honestly get serious help. Sorry if I seem a little crass, but I have seen plenty of white knights/feminists pull the R card (not accusing you of this), when trying to force their ideology views down everybody's throats. They use it too shame the opposition to shut up them up and accuse people that oppose their views as rape supporters. Its sickening they would use a serious traumatic event for their own ideology games and they are the worst scum for doing it.