JadedWolf

I almost feel sorry for the British, both the Remain and the Brexit camps are loathsome and contemptible, and they are both thoroughly British. Whether you vote for Brexit or not, you guys really need to clean up your political landscape.

Just to add to this: consider that in my small country, I can travel a few hundred kilometers to the north, east or south, and end up in places within my own country where the local dialects are like languages of their own, which I wouldn't even be able to understand. And these people with their own dialects feel closer to each other than to people elsewhere in the country. I mean, we have Friesland, which has a language of its own, and then we have Limburg where the citizens of one town can speak a completely different form of their dialect than the next. Limburg is also the youngest of our provinces (edit: with exception of Flevoland, which is a completely new polder). Its capital, Maastricht actually joined in the rebellion that would later divide the short lived Kingdom of the Netherlands into north and south. The only thing that kept the city in Dutch hands was the presence of a Dutch garrison under its commander Dibbets. It is said that the inhabitants of Maastricht were still pissing on the commander's grave long afterwards. Some Dutch in the north still refer to Limburg (and to a lesser extent Noord-Brabant) as "reserve Belgium". And this is just my tiny little country...

Once again so nice to see someone in the EU on this forum say something sincere and kind about how they feel about the EU "But we do also take care of each other when needed " I have been on these forums for 4 years and I have a semi-photographic memory and thats the first time anyone has ever said anything personal and real about each other. Seriously, 4 years and not one person who lives in the EU out of all the members ever just said something like " I may have issues with the central government but I care about my fellow EU members " Even people like Elerond who is positive would say " yes I like the EU but structural changes must happen " Normally I would say something because its not normal but I left it as my second home is the UK, after SA , and this was one of those rare times where I felt I am not going to try to convince people how lucky they are \ So I left it ..... But thanks for being honest Yeah, I am afraid you are taking it the wrong way. What I mean is that a lot of European states have a model that allows freedom while people still take care of each other, and this is something I like about Europe in general. But this taking care of each other is mostly only for people of our own nationality. We simply don't have the same connection with other Europeans as we have with people of our own nationality. And why should we? I mean, I have to be honest here, if I compare myself to the average French person for example... Well, it makes me glad to be Dutch. Apologies to any French person reading this.

Considering the closest language to how they spoke in those days is current day Icelandic, my tongue is quite happy that the above never happened.

And some of us fall in between both, and would prefer to have the best of both worlds while avoiding the evils. To be honest, that's the thing I generally like about Europe. We allow each other freedom, but we do also take care of each other when needed.

Bruce, I feel you're missing the key thrust of this. It's not a question of whether they'll be benign or not. The question is would you really, truly be perfectly happy to abandon your say in your government purely on the fuzzy promise that they'll look after you in the future. But if they don't.. you'll have given up your chance to argue with them or vote them out of office. You see to me that is not an issue because I currently have no say in government and my vote is irrelevant ...but thats because of our history so its not a big deal Also let me not hide this, I am in a very fortunate position where I could get a job in the UK and possibly the USA because of the work I do. So I never ever feel trapped not that I want to leave SA That's great for you, but completely irrelevant to the situation at hand. You have to understand that most people, well, they're not you. In fact, this bears repeating, because I feel it's something that you should really take to heart. Most people are not you, Bruce. Most people are not in your, dare I say it, privileged position. Now I am not saying you should be ashamed, but you could maybe try to see things through other people's eyes sometimes. I am saying this without a trace of irony, by the way.

Yes, well, countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland and Denmark may feel quite a bit more uncomfortable in an E.U. without GB to balance out Germany and France, so I wouldn't be too sure things will be business as usual. Especially since GB's contributions to the budget will fall away, and that money will have to come from somewhere. And it sure won't be coming from those nice Eastern European chaps... I am very glad you are asking these questions, sometimes I feel you guys in the EU just dont care or realize how beneficial the EU is So I agree, its not a nice thought to think of someone like the UK leaving but the reality is no other country can just leave because of the single currency and the fact the majority of countries in the EU have had to sacrifice old financial structures to integrate. This is also normal and what was required You may not believe me but I promise you its very relevant....there is no leaving the EU unless a country is prepared for a economic meltdown....thats why the UK is different Now being forced to stay may not seem ideal but it is, so people will complain but no one will leave. To be honest I hope we see a reaffirming of commitment and loyalty from some EU members, like PIGS countries, and they contribute towards the deficit from the UK leaving But to be fair you cant expect the East Europeans to fix the gap but never forget the loyalty of the Scandinavian countries The EU will adapt and survive but yes it will be a initial revenue impact I can't speak for other countries, but as someone who lives in the Netherlands I can assure you that you shouldn't underestimate the possibility of people actually voting parties in power that want to leave the E.U., no matter how bad the economic consequences would be, if the people in charge of the E.U. don't start offering solutions rather than more problems real soon. Whatever happens, things are going to need to change.

Yes, well, countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland and Denmark may feel quite a bit more uncomfortable in an E.U. without GB to balance out Germany and France, so I wouldn't be too sure things will be business as usual. Especially since GB's contributions to the budget will fall away, and that money will have to come from somewhere. And it sure won't be coming from those nice Eastern European chaps...

As someone who actually admires many aspects of British culture, and who at the same time thinks that Europe really does need to work together if we don't want our future to be dictated by other foreign powers, it pains me to think that maybe GB really doesn't have a future in Europe. It's so close in the polls that I wonder that even if they do win, could that really be considered a mandate for staying? Say the Remain camp wins but with 52% of the vote and with 48% against, could that really be considered to be a strong mandate for staying in the E.U.?

Sad. A lot will probably be said about the reasons and possible prevention for something like this, but the truth is that there is not much you can do against lone wolf attacks like this. Let's hope for calmness and rationality, and that people will withhold from pointing fingers at each other or use events like this to score points in the political debate.

Brexit would be a huge gamble, and anyone claiming to know what would follow it is lying through their teeth. I mean, sure, it could end very well for the U.K. If all parties stay rational, and there is an amicable split where there are no hard feelings. Favourable trade agreements between the U.K. and the E.U., and indeed other countries outside the E.U. framework, could undo any potential economic damage from leaving the E.U. framework. Scotland could be convinced not to hold another referendum as leaving the U.K. would be too much of a risk and Scottish oil isn't worth what it used to. Relations with commonwealth nations could intensify and lead to more trade. Etc. Etc. Or trade could take a hit, as the E.U. is forced to make sure that the U.K. does not get any favourable trading position in Europe as they are forced to make an example out of the U..K. for fear of the U.K. doing so well that other countries want to leave the E.U. Or it could start the collapse of the E.U., and a global economic recession from which the whole of Europe would never recover. Once one country leaves, another might. Then the Euro fails. Stock markets crash. People become even more nationalistic and paranoid and vote in autocratic leaders with rather funny ideas. One good from the last scenario though. No more immigration. The immigrants wouldn't want to be here anymore.

Yeah, what I learned from video games is that if you're driving in your stolen car and you see a Hare Krishna procession you have to try to drive over all of them for bonus points.

Bruce may just be young at heart. To be honest, judging from his posts I would never have guessed he is 41. But you are quite right, at age 41 you should be doing things like playing golf with other near-pensioners while discussing what fine wines you've added to the collection, not smoking weed with teenage girls in car parks. That sort of thing is simply not done! /nod nod

http://Robot monk blends science and Buddhism at Chinese temple

I laughed. I guess I'm going to hell...

I can only throw one person overboard? Come on man, me and Doggie will have a much better chance with just the two of us.