BruceVC

He did say that actions of Greece's debtors are terrorism, so I would guess that he would not get most warmest welcome in meetings with other eurozone's finance ministers. Meaning that if Greece hopes to have any change in any negotiations with their debtors he probably should not be part of those negotiations. Yeah I have heard that argument, hopefully that is exactly the reason and outcome But the issue is he represented a certain symbolism around the Greek defiance. Many Greeks really liked him and believed what he said Now the rhetoric is over and the NO vote has won he resigns...what does that say about the veracity and credibility of the NO argument ? Surly for the all the millions of Greeks who stood by his views he needs to continue to represent the NO perspective and ideological stance ?

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-07-06/greek-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-resigns/ Unbelievable, so one of the main proponents and architects of the referendum, the Greek finance minister, has resigned He claims it will be easier to negotiate better terms on the loans if he isn't involved. This is UTTER BS....the issues with the loans are not to due to clashes of personality but structural around the actual terms of the payments I don't believe it will make any difference who Greek sends to renegotiate the terms... there will always be certain conditions that Greece has to adhere to. I just find it concerning Varoufakis seems to be jumping ship when we will now see the true impact of the NO vote

Yes of course this is accurate, the primary reasons the Greek economy is in the state its in is due to mismanagement Its not just the bloated and problematic public sector and ineffective tax collection. Its factors like the low retirement age and as you mentioned this puts massive pressure on GDP Zora highlights the fundamental misunderstanding around the Greek crisis where he says " Now, hopefully, there will be some good sense and good will shown by both sides" This view makes the spurious point that the solution to the Greek problem is around the terms of the loans...no. The Greeks needed to implement serious economic restructuring and under this new government they will be delayed from doing this, yes some loan relief will help but the loan payments are just a symptomatic problem. The core issue is how the Greeks have managed there economy ...and the NO vote will reduce attention from the important and required changes the Greeks still need to make Remember we mustn't forget the reason for the loans initially was because the Greek government was about to go bankrupt, so for all the people blaming the loans and bailouts as the root cause of the current financial crisis in Greece maybe they can explain that one? In other words the economic problems existed in Greece before the loans

I don't think it's the eagle head you're focusing on...

Yes the view that Russia with all there economic woes is going to bail-out the Greeks is ludicrous at best and pure never-never land logic at worst

Fair enough, you make some good points in support of reddit. I can understand why people would want to create an unusual or possibly older discussion like that example you gave about Frozen 2. You wouldn't have the same number of people participating in that type of discussion if you created a thread like that on these forums So then what went wrong in your opinion? It seems that the reddit admins don't really understand the relevance or importance of the moderators that maintain the smaller discussions and subreddits ? Is that why there is "reddit revolt " from some forums ? Small correction to what I said: I was actually trying to say Frozen...2 years after it was released. Not Frozen 2...years after it was released. Doesn't really matter, but Frozen 2 hasn't, you know, released yet or anything. I think a number of things went wrong...and are continuing to go wrong. Funnily enough, what Zoraptor and Barothmuk kind of mention one aspect of it: the terrible functionality of the website...though not quite in the way I think they were talking about. Moderators have to install third party plugins for their browsers to be able to moderate beyond anything besides basic functions. I didn't know this until recently, but apparently they've been complaining about this for years, with the administrators consistently promising change but delivering nothing. Another problem is the issue of censorship...the former CEO of reddit, some guy named Yishan, said that the stated ideal of reddit was to be a free speech platform. The current administration, under CEO Ellen Pao, has gone against this, saying that it is not meant to be a free speech platform. Even though this wasn't really true, in my opinion, even with the previous administration, they've certainly kicked things up a notch or two since, banning subs that are determined to be "harassing"...and being extremely inconsistent in doing so. I have mixed feelings about this: on one hand, I don't like those harassment subs myself...but I don't think they should be Big Brothered. I also think that a company like reddit should have the ability to clean itself up of content that it, and most normal people, would find reprehensible. What I would've preferred to have seen is removal of such offending subs from ever being visible from the /r/all front page (essentially, the page where all subreddits can be visible depending on some upvote/time created formula...which is the page that guests users see when they visit...as opposed to what is simply called the "front" page, which is personalized based on what subreddits you're subscribed to as a logged in user): not only would this clean up the site, it would decrease the likelihood of new subscribers/content for those subs. It also would've likely prevented the huge crapstorm calling out reddit for its censorship as well as its inconsistency: the subs that were banned were vile, yes, but there were many more just like them that have still not been touched in any way since. As a result of these complications, the userbase was kind of split on whether the subs being banned was a good thing or not: some thought free speech (to a point) trumped whatever reasons for banning them were, others hated the content so much they were simply glad that it was gone and weren't really interested in any such implications. Then there was the fact that Victoria, almost absolutely the favorite admin for being an apparently genuinely wonderful person as well as actually critical to some subreddits...the very large default subreddit iama as well as smaller subreddits who would do similar things and employ Victoria's services...was fired for reasons still not yet explained, and absolutely no communication about it was conveyed by the admins to the moderators who required her services in order for events in their subs to work. Furthermore, the admins have been pretty unhelpful even since the crapstorm: took a look at kirottu's post above, where you can see the head admin basically try and strongarm the iama science mods (who were going to do an AMA with Stephen Hawking before Victoria got fired) without offering any real information or *anything* concrete in return for cooperating. (EDIT: If you're having trouble reading that image, uh...I can't blame you. Took me a bit, too. Pay attention to the "to" and "from" fields: red kn0thing is the admin, the green users are the moderators, and when the message itself is green, it means the moderator is sending a message to that user. There are still a few odd bits - like, why does the admin repeat lines of what the moderator says and then stick on additional bits - but that should help.) Just stupid behavior on the parts of the admins. FURTHERMORE, what was probably the SECOND favorite admin was also fired recently...and for, get this...having cancer. That admin ran the reddit secret santa program, which you can Google if you want more information about, as well as this story, if you wish. Finally, Ellen Pao, the CEO, keeps going onto news sites like buzz feed and trying to downplay the events that recently transpired, as well as the complaints of the userbase, saying that it was "minor", and that most users did not really care about all of this. I don't know how much truth to that there is, but the fact of the matter is, you shouldn't be saying crap like that as the CEO of one of the largeset websites in the world...that just got more or less incapacitated by those so-called "minor" issues/complaints. Bah. Interesting, thanks for sharing. You have given me some new views and insights

Sure, I agree that in the media aesthetics play a part and I'm sure have a degree of influence around hiring policies But its not all about good looks, the person still has to be competent to get the job. And that is what is overlooked by some when they see someone like that weather girl ...some people will immediately think " well there is someone who only got hired because of her looks " And what they don't realize is they are unintentionally adding to the culture of objectifying women by only looking at her from one angle

Fair enough, you make some good points in support of reddit. I can understand why people would want to create an unusual or possibly older discussion like that example you gave about Frozen 2. You wouldn't have the same number of people participating in that type of discussion if you created a thread like that on these forums So then what went wrong in your opinion? It seems that the reddit admins don't really understand the relevance or importance of the moderators that maintain the smaller discussions and subreddits ? Is that why there is "reddit revolt " from some forums ?

Did you feel guilty that you were responsible for her getting suspended ? Oh wait ....this happened to " someone you know "

This is actually a very valid point, I would dispute the point that she is a " victim " in any respects If you look at all the various international news channels you will see there are many examples of beautiful and intelligent women who discuss news and global events. So it would be quite patronizing to suggest to these very competent women that they were only employed to satisfy the lascivious urges of the male demographic So lets take this weather women, my only questions is " can she do her job effectively and professionally " ...the same question I would ask of any news presenter The fact that she also happens to be smoking hot should not be how we judge her at all

Its not moderated enough and it allows these bizarre subcultures to exist and gives them a voice in its own limited way. When people are allowed to say what they want with no sense of consequence they start to believe what they are saying and this leads to anti-social behavior and perspectives Of course this doesn't apply to all of reddit, I am just highlighting the issues I have with it as you asked

Good story, when you think about all the advancements we have made in medicine its scary to think about your niece living 50 years ago (?) she probably wouldn't have made it this far. Yet our understanding of medicine has allowed her to have an almost normal life. We do live in the greatest era of mankind despite all our challengers

Some belated good news, my PoE shirt arrived yesterday that I got as part of my funding tier Its not a bad quality shirt so I am happy

Belated Happy 4th July for all our American members

Yeah, like the Tories have done in the UK. Economy still below 2008 levels, by a fair bit, GDP: debt ratio up to ~85% from 40% in 2009, despite all the rhetoric no actual surplus in sight. Iceland is doing better than that, despite their default. What's needed is pragmatism, and not slavish adherence to some Eton knob end's entirely on paper in Excel economic model that bears as little resemblance to reality as an 18 year old liberal art student's who has just read Marx for the first time. To be fair it would have been far better for the UK if your government had followed our Labour's 2000 era example in its pragmatism (ie paying back debt and establishing a proper pension fund- at 17% returns p/a- while the going was good in the early 2000s; in contrast our Tories have more than doubled debt and never had a surplus, just like yours) but it's too late to go back in time and tell Gordon and Tony that maybe they should pay back some money in the good times and not allow banks to be morans. Yeah good points Monte, Zora you were doing so well with convincing people that you cared about the Greeks and there situation...I almost fell for it But then the old " down with the West " sentiment comes through and we see the real invective and animosity that you feel that motivates most of your views So now the UK becomes a target of your criticism ....hey maybe we can blame the USA for this? You never know, there will be some website that will blame the USA for the Greek crisis ...you just need to look hard enough ? And lamenting the loss of Berlusconi ...wow....okay. He must be one of the most controversial and corrupt leaders Italy has seen post WW2 . You should see him getting replaced as something positive

Volo, you are misunderstanding a few things, this is also about the principle. You can't have teachers sleeping with students...surly you can understand this is a bad thing?

Melk I'm glad you decided to contribute towards this debate, Hi " waves " Can you share with us you are voting for and what the general sentiment in your circles is around Yes or No ? I know it is going to be very close in the vote tomorrow

I love the way some commentators are saying this vote on Sunday is " either the end or new beginning of the EU " Why? Worst case scenario Greece leaves the EU ...its not like every other country undergoing austerity is going to leave. In fact I would argue that when people see the economic consequences of what happens when you leave the EU under these circumstances it will be convince the likes of Spain and Portugal that the austerity measures are necessary I don't see the vote that Greece will make as the great "seismic event that will decide the future of the EU"

??? What is the American a symbol of that's so bad? Yes I am also interested in what Volo means?

He's so dreamy. I watched that whole video and he does make the Greek position in a reasonable way. The main issue I have with his story is the original loans from the IMF, Germany and the ECB were used to address the Greek solvency issues...how would you have prevented Greek bankruptcy without these loans?

Okay I see your point , funny enough there is a real view that a EU without Greece is a stronger EU under the circumstances. So if Russia wants to inherit the Greek issues in the unlikely event they leave the EU this is fine...it will be to there detriment But for me this isn't about geo-politics, this is about the best future for the Greek people and that lies with the EU and the painful but necessary austerity measures

You seem to think that Russia with its economic woes is just going to jump in to be able to give Greece billions of Euros ? The current Greek government has already been Russia to discuss this but we aren't privy to what was discussed yet clearly it wasn't ideal because Tsipras would have jumped ship to the Russians if he could have as he clearly doesn't like the EU that much And the Chinese? They have the money but generally don't interfere in these types of international events so I don't expect them to get involved ?

So I was reading these new required loans that Greece needs over the next 3 years For those people who are opposed to the lending of money to Greece and blaming Germany for actually lending money to Greece what is the next step around this? Where does Greece get this money from ? Because this has always been the issue, Greece has needed billions of Euros in relief to stay afloat yet when this money is then lent to Greece this is also criticized. So clearly institutions like the ECB and IMF are out this equation because they also been attacked for lending the money to Greece ....so what next?

Ideally they would have decided that Greece could not pay back their debt under any reasonable circumstance in 2008- they already have the largest primary (ie before interest payments) surplus at 5% in Europe and by a reasonable margin, plus the harshest austerity; if they aren't going to pay money back in those circumstances you've got to just face reality instead of continuing bullheadedly. Even more ideally in 2002 you either have a proper Euro zone with a proper common fiscal policy like aggregated borrowing and rules that are followed by everyone*, or decide to have no Euro. Since you cannot do either without a time machine and more political will than anyone in Europe has that leaves two options, reduce the debt to a reasonable level via a 'haircut', which is what happened for Germany post WW2, or let Greece leave the Euro on terms as amicable as possible and just take the damage from default. Increasing debt levels on Greece and increasing debt levels of your own when it cannot in any reasonable sense be paid back is simply stupid and benefits no one except those ideologically wedded to the ideal of the Euro for whom a grexit is simple anathema and the death knell of out and out integrationism. In the more general sense, there's no literal obligation on Germany to remember and reciprocate their debt being forgiven, that's a part of it being forgiven after all. Morally though? One of the fundamentals not just of 'good manners' but of diplomacy and all other forms of balanced relationships is reciprocity, the idea that you don't just do stuff to benefit yourself all the time and that when you benefit from another's action, well, one good turn deserves another. If Greece helped Germany out under circumstances where they'd be justified in saying "no" emphatically there is a moral obligation of reciprocity on Germany's part for precisely that reason. *And it should be noted, even the rules that do exist now are regularly ignored by nearly everyone. Fair enough, you make some good points. I guess we need to wait and see

Really Bruce, even for you that is particularly... unique* perspective given how many Greeks the Germans outright killed, let alone the damage they did to the country and its economy over WW2. Blame me for mentioning Lidice, I guess, even if I couched it as a economic comparison I clearly should have used Kondomari/ Kalavryta/ Kandanos instead- just on Crete, mind you. Just in case anyone doesn't know the details, Germany declared war on and conquered Greece during WW2 with commensurate deaths in combat, mass murder, starvation, destruction of property, mass appropriation and the like. 12 years after that they forgave Germany their debt. Bruce is right, that's not really similar circumstances- half a million (7% of pop) Greeks died as a result of WW2, I'm pretty sure not a single German has died due to issuing stupid loans that can't be paid back. BTW Bruce, won't get much more west than Greece, cradle of western civilisation and that. Oh,* * I am not looking at this whole Greek crisis in the context of WW2 or what the Nazis did. That is actually a complete distraction that seems to be gaining some semblance of support based on that excellent article Jaded posted. That article did raise some good points but it hasn't fundamentally changed my view on what Germany is expecting from Greece But just to add something to your point, after the disastrous implementation of the Versailles Treaty the European countries realized that punitive economic steps actually led to the rise of Hitler. So yes I agree the Greeks were magnanimous to be so reasonable to the Germans 10 years after WW2 but that also made economic sense. Sometimes integration is a better way to get a country like Germany to become a important member of Europe again. And that was the right decision considering how Germany now contributes to the overall EU. So without sounding dismissive of how the Greeks suffered in WW2 I still don't see how what Greece did for Germany in the 1950's should somehow influence what Germany does now around the Greek bailouts and austerity expectations? Honestly tell me what you would like Germany to do? I am going to be honest but I think most of this criticism from the European members on these forums towards Germany is actually based unintentionally on something that article mentions that Jaded posted. I think there is a strange and historical resentment towards Germany from many Europeans because end of the day some people don't like how the EU strategies seem to be influenced by a seemingly "belligerent and forceful " Germany .." we beat the Germans in two world wars but now they are telling us what to do " mentality I can understand this but its misplaced. Germany has become an economic powerhouse ..not a military one. The only ideology they are concerned with is good governance and member states adhering to necessary austerity. People should be grateful that Germany is being so forceful around the Greek issue..someone has to. What do you think would happen if the other countries in Europe undergoing austerity also had far left parties come to power and they also just decided they wanted to rewrite the austerity agreements. This contagion would lead to serious issues for the EU and its economic stability So once again Germany has to be relatively strict with Greece because of the consequences of them deciding not to continue to pay the required loan amounts. That would lead to a dangerous precedent and set a very bad example for other countries.