BruceVC

And how is that any different than you expressing your view based on your perceptions and experiences? I honestly do not understand what makes your point of view special Bruce. For all you know, Bartimaeus' close circle MIGHT in fact be extremely polarized in their opinions. You might at least afford him the respect that his opinion deserves instead of being dismissive of it. Fair enough, I accept that Barti is correct about the polarization in his town or circles he moves in. I admit there are dysfunctional groups in the USA ....we all watch Jerry Springer But this doens't apply to the whole USA ....and you guys think I am being dismissive and arrogant, I have no issue admitting I am wrong...lets at least give me some credit ?

Thats not a bad assessment, I'm impressed with how you have identified some of the issues but each one you mentioned is actually more complex which only adds to the nuances For example as you said Zimbabwe tried the much threatened African diatribe " lets take the land from the whites and nationalize the economy. We are black Africans and we don't need whites or colonialists " and they did it .....could it work? African countries gave it tacit support as the perceived influence and ownership of resources that whites have in some African countries is a contentious point as you can understand But what happened? It didn't just fail...it was an epic fail. They don't use there currency anymore, they have an 80 % unemployment rate , they have very little productive land, they lost most foreign investment and 30 % of there population has become economic migrants and is forced to work in neighboring countries ....and they send money back to support the unemployed family members stuck in Zim This was a terrible lesson to learn for Zim but an important one for the region... " don't underestimate the value of white people...they do contribute " , So now in South Africa the ANC is aware of this and is understandably very nervous to do anything that will impact the economy. Our government run parastatals like the national airline and electricity provider are suppose to be profitable yet every single year they require billions of rands of bailouts to keep them afloat. So the ANC are well aware that they are not really good at running profitable businesses. So the public sector is a mess...yet the private sector where I work is very profitable and honestly keeps the country going due to the taxes and employment And now you understand some of the background this next point will make sense. Many black South Africans are unemployed and feel disenfranchised and disillusioned in the new South Africa...20 years after Apartheid they are not only unemployed but also the whites still own 65 % of the land And the ANC will not legislate to change this as everyone knows what happened to Zim. But the main reason for the high unemployment, about 30 % , is the fact they are unemployable ..the education system in the public sector is so bad that people are pushed through to grade 12 and " pass " yet they can't speak English. So they won't get a job in the private sector so they end up on social grants and basically never ever work But we accept this reality, we help the blacks we can. Anyway you can understand how some blacks feel upset and also feel whites are " privileged " even though Apartheid ended 21 years ago.

It doesn't matter where I live, human nature in a country as large and opinionated as the USA doesn't change. I don't need to live in the USA to have an opinion on its culture considering how accessible and transparent everything in the USA is. I can read blogs, go to websites and actually chat online to people in the USA at anytime who study the nature of discourse in the USA ...and I can promise you many people see the polarization as robust debate You made an original point that the USA is a polarized culture ...I said its probably just your view based on your perception And Barti please stop asking me to provide evidence to support my view ...you sound like KP, its annoying . Its irrelevant to my point when what I am saying is obvious. If I say " Obama is president of the USA " you won't ask me to produce evidence There is this new way of debating from some people on these forums where a standard response is " can you produce evidence " instead of just disputing the point intellectually Lets not be lazy, you notice I don't ask you for evidence

Thats the funny thing, I'm not trolling but I am teasing you a little and showing you the inherent contradiction in your guys logic...but you need someone to point it out You don't agree with me because you have your own opinion and I expect you to be honest? So we end up debating...someone who doesn't know us ends up thinking this " thread is polarized " ...yet it just us debating. So the word polarized is very subjective

Thanks for supporting my post, at the very least. I didn't like posting that, because it seemed very dismissive of Bruce's perspective - which wasn't my intention - but the fact remained that he was directly contradicting me (and on multiple points) without providing any actual sort of logical counterpoint or evidence while saying I was wrong and that he knew better. C'mon, Bruce: didn't we just have a discussion not too long ago about condescension? No it was nasty as you were directly disagreeing with me which many would say is you polarizing the debate...why not just agree with me?

Barti does live here after all and you don't, so I am more inclined to accept his first hand perspective than yours. Or at the very least to accept his viewpoint as being uniquely his. Your response (which is pretty dismissive if you want to know the truth) fails to recognize the possibility (actually likelihood would be more apt) that the circles you both engage in would have entirely different demographics that would make the internal dynamics substantially different and result in complete polar opposites in viewpoint. I would not even attempt to answer you unless you define what you mean by "the place they live"? Are you talking about your immediate neighborhood? your city? county? state? or the country as a whole? or perhaps your circle of school friends? or all of them? Edit: And it seems that I got ninja'ed. lol Yes since you guys suggested it appears I do know more about American society than you guys if you are seriously suggesting that US society is polarized Why do I have to point out the obvious? The type of polarization you guys seem to have an issue with is just a sign of an intelligent and robust society where people actually want to debate issues and are passionate I'm sorry you guys have an issue with free speech ....but its important to many Americans

But you see thats part of the fun of Romance, it has to be a challenge where you need to consider what you say to prospective partners If it was too easy it would lose its exciting unknown appeal ....where you are not sure of the next Romantic dialogue option I also use to give the best equipment to my Romance ladies ...so Viconia and Isabella were always very well equipped. For me I do tend to spoil my girlfriends in RL so this just seems normal

Ah my young friend you are misunderstanding the reality in the USA and seeing something that is just an aspect as the big picture You are confusing Internet debates and US politics as a reflection of the society. Ask anyone else on these forums from the USA if they think the place they live is polarized? I have never found that on my numerous trips to the USA ...but ask me what I think of the general level of Internet debates about lets say SJ issues and I will say " unhelpful, generalized, condescending, intransigent, bitter ...and polarized "

That's an interesting observation, I wonder how widespread that is? It may just be where you live...lets see what other US forum members think ?

My point, I guess, was that I'm trying to see both sides of the argument, and that the situation/issue seems terribly complex and nuanced...and it's unfortunate that all of us...or at least most of us...live in polarized societies where it's (increasingly?) difficult for people to consider the perspectives of those on the other side of the wall, and that issues such as these aren't likely to be resolved any time soon and/or with any semblance of effectiveness as a consequence of that. I edited my previous post some, in case that helps further explain my point of view any. Now that makes sense, I get that 100 % and its interesting How would you say you live in a polarized society ..who are you polarized from ?

Cool news I can run GTAV at full graphic settings with my new video card ...it just does it

I've read a tiny - very tiny - amount of literature on the subject, and the "don't attack the privileged, but try and motivate them (as well as everyone else) to get involved in better understanding and working towards improving the lives of those who belong to unprivileged social categories" seems to be the general motto of those are more reasonable about the subject (i.e. not usually the more extremist teenagers and young adults you find on twitter and tumblr and such). It's my belief, though, that people, regardless of their station (or lack thereof) in life, are generally too absorbed in their own lives in order for such movements to ever truly make progress. Most regular people are too busy working for their own lives and the lives of their loved ones and close friends, too much so to care about the intricacies of others' lives, particularly when it's concerning what seems to be semi-abstract social categorization and labeling. Throw in the people who claim to be "working for" those unprivileged groups but are really more just attacking what they consider to be privileged groups - particularly those who don't subscribe to their theory of certain categories being privileged and others being unprivileged - and you're bound for some equal anger and pushback. Such is life...and the polarized societies we live in. Barti you post is confusing ? Can you not just make your point simply...like ....me You see, no issues understanding me

Volo if there was one thing I had hoped you had learnt from me is lets not make excuses for others ineptitude ....lets" see the wood for trees " Greece borrowed the money and Greece needs to pay it back....any other point just seems like some irrelevant venting at other countries ?

But Amentep he is funny hey K ?

No its not as simple as " no Romance in PoE " ...haven't you been reading your own thread? Its about the real and surreptitious reason for why people say they don't like Romance .....there are things people aren't completely disclosing and its our duty to help them post the reason

But surly you don't still think Germany is evil ?

You funny Good one

Volo you sound like some radical feminist who never forgets the past ....we forgive countries and move on from past mistakes. Do you dislike Italy for Mussolini ?

Okay good, I was just worried it was a book There is a proven connection between cynicism and serial killers ....so you just rather play it safe Could you give a link to that proof? Because I've never heard that before. Of course I can provide a link...haven't you learnt by now I can always provide links But the reality is I don't believe you have heard of every single theory in the world around causes for what makes people serial killers....so just because you haven't of something isn't reason for me to prove it? So just take my word...you need to trust people more

Sure, but lets be fair here. You are a far more intelligent and confident person than most of the black people who suffered under Apartheid ....despite the fact you have also had tough experiences you came out stronger in many ways and that worked for you. So I get your personal view of not having much sympathy because if you can do it you believe others can...and in most cases that would be true but not in this case ....you need to accept you are Cuban....Cubans are not Africans What matters is ideology not just conditions, there have been some studies pointing out that middle class values lead inner city kids to success whilst the ones who embrace ghetto culture grow up into a life of crime. Generally speaking, smart people are rare and not really a measure of the general population but First world general populations have more information available to them than Third World. But that has no bearing on the subject of will and morals, you can work towards making your life better while being a decent person without being a Rhodes scholar. It is what a lot of people do and who are unfairly paired with the worst examples of their ethnicity because some people have the misguided notion that other people's choices is somehow their fault and responsibility. They are not children and they know right from wrong and there is a difference between a thief who draws the line at a moral relative and the ones who have no limits. Those things have nothing to do with culture. I have to be honest I would have thought you would be one of the people who understood my post and reasoning? I do understand it. I just think it's bull. I know white privilege is a thing. I just don't care because acknowledging it, or not acknowledging it, makes absolutely no difference. The questions you originally posed still weren't answered - what does it mean for him that you acknowledged it? He feels a little better because someone who was dealt a good hand in life acknowledged him while he was dealt a **** hand. He was already dealt that **** hand, however, so acknowledging doesn't change that. Playing your cards in a way to help people with **** hands dealt to them or to give new hands being dealt a better chance of being good, that's meaningful. The fact that the hand you were dealt was good due to no control of your own is pointless to dwell upon. You claim you're already doing a lot to try to make it a better place for less fortunate people, to educate people about racism, etc. so what does this change for you, going forward? Are you going to help more than you already did? What does this change for the man who got you to acknowedge it, going forward? Are you going to help him, specifically? Why and how does it matter? Why is your white advantage constantly under scrutiny while it's their black disadvantage we need to be taking a closer look at? The world would be a much better place if people pointing fingers and going "this person has an advantage I don't have, let's attack them" and started pointing fingers and going "this person has a disadvantage I don't have, let's help them" - more people would be helped, and less people would be polarized against those trying to help. Have you never stopped to wonder why so many people are now against those who talk about "social justice"? It's because they constantly focus on and attack people for **** that doesn't matter. So you've accepted your white privilege - so what? Here's a way to look at it - I've lived with mental disorders for my entire life. Products of my formative environment, who I was born to, how my bodychemistry works. People who don't have to deal with depression, chemical imbalance, social anxiety etc. have a massive advantage over me. I could spend my time bitching at people to acknowledge they have it better than me and their problems don't matter as much as mine, but how does that help anyone? Instead, I try to talk to people who deal with the same thing and help them and raise awareness by pointing out my disadvantage instead of their advantage. Because the fact that someone I talk to is healthy doesn't change anything. Guys thanks for the feedback, I haven't explained it properly and the reality is you wouldn't understand what I am saying unless you were part of something like Apartheid and I am glad neither of you has been Its not about guilt for me, its about an acceptance of something that exists in South African society that white people just need to recognize. But I won't be putting pressure on anyone I know. This is something you do on your own for yourself

Fair enough, you probably immune to the serial killer syndrome ....you dont seem irrational

Well the good news is because you are German you get a pass...and I'm not being facetious. Its valid The Germans did commit some atrocities in Namibia ( German SW Africa ) but that pales in comparison to what you did in WW1 and WW2. Yet despite your entire country being utterly defeated and carved up and your entire nation vilified you have rebuilt yourselves to an economic powerhouse ....its very impressive and is really testimony to the caliber and strength of German culture People don't seem to want to recognize this but I will. That is why I got so annoyed when the Greeks and others were blaming the Germans for expecting Greece to pay back its loans Your country had to do so much more and succeeded. I would be very proud to be German

Sure, but lets be fair here. You are a far more intelligent and confident person than most of the black people who suffered under Apartheid ....despite the fact you have also had tough experiences you came out stronger in many ways and that worked for you. So I get your personal view of not having much sympathy because if you can do it you believe others can...and in most cases that would be true but not in this case ....you need to accept you are Cuban....Cubans are not Africans

Yeah, how dare those plebs use their own reasoning and moral intuition to discuss things, and assume that the burden is on the accuser to bring across the meaning of his/her accusation. Don't they know that when accused with a fancy made-up word, they're supposed to duck and nod and go quietly read the Marxist sociologist elite's treatises on the topic and Listen And Believe™... You funny Ineth but I am hoping Baro does respond with RL information and personal experiences. I believe he has something to add....well he always alludes to it I have to be honest I would have thought you would be one of the people who understood my post and reasoning?

To be honest the first time I heard the word Romance was in a Bioware game ....but I'm South African so what do I know about Romance ?