BruceVC

Got to be honest nothing in this thread I am finding interesting enough to engage in debate in ...sorry guys But I don't like starting a debate unless I feel I can commit to it

It doesn't have to be something you "actually want to do" for it to be something you want to be ABLE to do if you don't think royalty should be any more exempt from insults than the regular joe (or if you can envision a scenario...or if there's actually been one already...where it seemed appropriate for you to do so). Nah, that's just some pseudo-justification for people who don't want to be civil and maintain a level of decorum Both those things should be banned in the interest of a more peaceful environment. If people can't live without insulting policemen or the Dutch royalty than they should just immigrate You .......you....anarchist

Wait. How is my free speech not like yours? In fact i can say what the **** i want, about what the **** i want without less restritcitons than you do, without fearing a goverment agent knocking on my door. I can tell a police officer to **** off with out getting arrested. ****, you are living in a police state that can bring you into prison without much of an offense. I think you are being ironic but i can´t tell, because your link is useless and doesn´t prove anything. :> Really? Here in the Netherlands, it's a crime to insult public servants like police officers. I'm also not allowed to publish anything insulting regarding the royal monarchs. Which is a good thing considering how rude you Dutch can be And please dont say this is something you actually want to do ?

" a lot of people criticize the West (and particularly the U.S.) because they want the West to do better " That's cute, I admire that kind of naivety The people that dislike America and criticize it will vary with there feelings. Sadly many people actually really resent and or hate the USA . I don't know anyone that dislikes the USA because they want to improve it. Your next question should be " why " because I can promise you Barti 95 % of the reasons are uninformed, biased and exaggerated And you have this fairly large sector of the Muslim community outside the USA who automatically hate the USA because they are ignorant in most cases and believe the USA is on a crusade to surreptitiously destroy Islam " Yeah right you say....you exaggerating " sadly no. On these radio stations I listen to every single Muslim caller phones in and lambastes the USA ....they are completely brainwashed and intransigent and you cannot change there mind. They believe a whole host of conspiracy theories about the USA like The USA did 9/11 to itself so it can conquer the Muslim world The USA created ISIS The USA created Ebola to destroy Africa The USA illegally attacked Afghanistan I have tried to change there minds but its pointless...its really bad. But the good news is people like me support and defend the USA constantly ...in fact I get great satisfaction from proving with facts that people are wrong on the radio And why do I defend the USA...am I this sad sycophant who loves another country more than his own? No its about the strategic picture that the USA is the real foundation of Capitalism and Western ideology. We stand and fall with the USA whether we like it or not ..unless you a prefer a world dominated by Russia ? So of course I want the USA to succeed and make the right decisions

Oh so you know I'm pro-Western? I assume I don't have to ask you, I'm sure you are a patriot

How are his views mistaken? Going, "you're wrong: don't you think you should reconsider your views now (editor's note: lol) to be more like mine even though I'm not not gonna bother countering anything you just said? Also, these people that agree with my views are unbiased, and the people that agree with yours are biased, though I will fail to illustrate how...and by the way, here's some more condescension..." isn't exactly the most convincing argument for your side of the argument that I've heard. Nah that's just the SJ view we use to not hurt peoples feelings, someone always has to be right in this type of debate Barti you on my side right? I don't personally know enough about how economies work for me to feel comfortable in committing to a side. Interesting things have been said on both sides, and I'm leaning towards "austerity doesn't really seem like the correct course based on the evidence..." ...but the sample size is oh so small, and it's easy to look at the effects of certain actions in hindsight and go, "Yeah, look at what austerity/not doing austerity did!" ...if you're not considering how small that sample size is and the fact that there may be much more to do with it than just one particular factor. In my opinion, situations usually have a tendency to be much more complex than they merely appear, and if there were ever a complex situation, this would be one. Really, I just popped in to keep you on your toes. Barti trust me you don't want to be on that side, have you seen all the anti-Western people on that side Wouldn't it be better to be on the side of the countries that have managed there economies ?

Interesting so Greece spent all its money paying for protection...that makes sense. We should let the Germans know, they may be more lenient ?

How are his views mistaken? Going, "you're wrong: don't you think you should reconsider your views now (editor's note: lol) to be more like mine even though I'm not not gonna bother countering anything you just said? Also, these people that agree with my views are unbiased, and the people that agree with yours are biased, though I will fail to illustrate how...and by the way, here's some more condescension..." isn't exactly the most convincing argument for your side of the argument that I've heard. Nah that's just the SJ view we use to not hurt peoples feelings, someone always has to be right in this type of debate Barti you on my side right?

Again you are not going into the links he posted or the one i posted (with sources from the IMF itself) that show that it clearly doesn´t work. You are trying to justify your nonsense with backpedaling on your inital point and now throwing in meaningless phrases like "different kind of success". You sound like an politican. Differences are given because of country specific economies. But there is no such thing like "it half worked", because then it still failed to achive what it meant to do. Because the debt didn´t shrink, unemployment is not shrinking but rising, the living standart is sinking, austeritiy did, effectivly not work. You bring in examples like economical growth and think this is a result of austerity. Yet the IMF report i linked to shows that this only a short time effect, because the real cost of austerity measures takes some time to come into effect. You also seem to forget that a) after a complete meltdown of a state, growth in some form is natural effect. It´s easy to say Spain has some growth when they were allready laying on the floor. Every country in history had growth after a financial disaster, but in my believe, with my knowledge, and with documents by IMF and others, Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and others would be better off with a) no austerity or very little, b) not having to conform with EU laws that may hinder them and c) their own currency with the ability to combat their problems. Even the EU is now acknowledging that the Euro might be the wrong thing for Greece. This is like Elrond saying that the EU helped Finnland. It´s easy to turn around and look at Finnland in the crisis and say "well the EU helped us" and in some aspects he is right. But you have to look at the long run. They too, are not doing well, no signigicant grow in economical terms, billions of loses due to sancations, and no way to devalue their currency (as they did many times in these cases) to make it easier. The same goes for a lot countries. A lot of people only look at the south, but Austria isn´t better. The french economy isn´t that great as reported in the news also. Stagnation is pretty evident in the Euro zone, and its the fault of the EU and a currency that should not be there in the first place. I mean seriously Spains youth unemployment rate is almost 50%. with only slight fluctuations. The youth rate is a good indicator on how well an economy is doing. It doesn´t look better in the other south countries btw. Portugal, living under austerity, has longer waiting lines infront of soup kitchens then the greece infront their banks. So, i ask you now, please with sources that are not easily debunked. How did austerity help anyone. Except the banks, and no you are wrong and right at the same time when you say a healthy bank system is needed for an economy. That is the case when you have financial control over your own currency, then it´s important. If you have a foreign currency, which the Euro effectly is, and you can´t influence it then you are a victim to that system because you can just react (bank bail-outs). THe only ones who make a profit on this system ARE the banks, not the people, not the country. Thats infact how these (illegal by EU law) loans to greece and others work. No country has billions laying around. So they take a credit getting into more debt, to loan that money to the troubled countries, yet most of it goes to that banks (who in return are mostly owned by the big banks who gave out the credit in the first place), while the people in the troubled country get austerity (often with privatization, greece shipyards, the backbone of their country, bought up by the owners of big banks say hello) so that country can pay the loans back and the big banks make the profit. How do you, who thinks he is so smart, DOESNT SEE HOW BAD THAT IS. No, i don´t expect a real answer from you, but surprise me. One more thing. Now i know you are not very well educated on this but really? "Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher" There are no high standars in the US. That country is trillions in debt...growing, with no chance every paying it back, and is only afloat because the dollar is still the world trading currency (a trend that is decreasing). They print that money like crazy, which also doesn´t work forever. And the backbone of their economy, the military complex, still finds countries to bomb into the ground. They have no economy to speak off, considering their size and population. Their unenployment rate is extremly high, it just looks low because the white house reports ignore a lot (easily debunked by experts all the time..look it up yourself). It´s always funny when the US lectures someone on debt. Heck, that goes for Germany too, they never paid their debt, they are in no possition to lecture anyone. Do you mind sharing with me where you were born? Are you native Austrian, the reason I ask is you and I are so far apart on most issues there has to be a valid reason like some Serbs who have a dislike of the West for Bosnia and Kosovo. There is nothing wrong with being honest, I am a white South African who was born in South Africa I am sorry to offend you now, I don't mean to but I can see no other way to make this point...you clearly don't understand what austerity means and how it is suppose to resolve the various economic issues plaguing certain EU countries Sorry but its true, I'll explain it later but not now. Two points that will confirm my suspicion is you linked the "IMF Report " as credible proof. Its a good read and paints an accurate and gloomy view of the EU and austerity ...except its over two years old, it came out in Jan 2013. It was only after that austerity started to see positive results..like Ireland leaving the bailout program end of 2013 So your " proof " is not only old but was wrong with its predictions Then your view that 24 % or 50 % unemployment is another sign that " how can you possibly say Spain is on the road to recovery " . You see you don't understand that there are various metrics the EU Troika uses to measures the success of austerity, two of them are the health of the banking system and the fact there economy is growing. You may ignore these and only focus on unemployment but that is not the accepted view of economists and EU Troika...and there opinion is what matters Native Austrian. If you think you can imply some sort of racial bias you are wrong. We Austrians are very liberal and open, naturaly if you take a close look at our history. Yet, we are not stupid when it comes to destroying our culture in favour of an overruling EU policy. You clearly have no knowledge about Serbs or their and our history, don´t mention them you will only embaress yourself. You are not offending me. That IMF report is a proof on how austerity doesn´t work, BECAUSE it showed it two years ago, NOW look at greece. Did it work? THe answer is no, they knew it didn´t work. And don´t even try to turn your words around again because the IMF is one of the creditors and thus a perfect source. Again you have nothing to show. This report is 2 years old, yes BUT THAT IS THE POINT IDIOT. Now Greece is dip**** in trouble. BUt hey. tell me..show me how in the last 2 years the austerity in these countries worked...i beg you..show me. And also how me a forcast, especially in a europe losing millions because of iditoic sancations. I would like to see that...but you can´t no matter how you bend...try it (except the EU losing alomst 100Billions because of nonsense sanctions..thanks US) 24% - 50%. Can´t you ****ing read? Your 24% unemployment rate is the general rate. Youth unemployment is alomst 50% THAT is more imporant then the general number. What the TROIKA, the DEBT firm says is of no matter, when it doesn´t make up the reality. No, you don´t get it. It doesn´t matter what the TROIKA says, if there is rising unemployment, and sinking living standarts, then it doesn´t matter what the Troika says. It´s irrelevant because it´s not the reality. Infact, it doesn´t matter **** what the Troika says because the member states don´t act nor care about it. Again..you didn´t answer the questions. How has any country benefited from austerity, (this includes the people living there in the long run, because thats the idea). How is the EU policy better than sovereign states? How is having a currency better than having your own? How is it better to not have your own border control and let anyone in? How can you, speaking out for democracy on me several times, support a non democracy (EU) organisation? Any ideas yet except "i will answer latter" like you did in my Ukraine post, but didn´t find anything against it? Try...at last..i will enjoy it Interesting, so you are Austrian. But there is something you aren't telling me. Why are you so anti-EU and anti-West? Austria has been a loyal member of the EU...what is the reason you don't like the USA. And I'm not judging you, I am just trying to understand your perspective You can ask me anything if you want ?

KP its been great to get your feedback, you have done your research and its been interesting But your views on Greece are mistaken. I don't know why you are influenced by people like Zora and 2133. They are very bright guys but it should be obvious they are biased. Even if you don't believe me..believe Monte or Elerond? And the reason I am specifically questioning your view is I really don't want you in the future to be on the wrong side of these debates....and its weird that you are American and are doing this which is why I am suspecting you have been influenced? Normally I would blame Nonek for his bad influence in you but he hasn't been around

You see Volo that's where it gets complicated. Technically you are right and many people I know would consur. Many white people feel like they are targeted for verbal abuse and blamed for the inefficiency of the ANC, so they refuse to do more But there are groups of people like me who ignore this " blaming the whites " and realize we have to help build the new South Africa. This may sound arrogant but there are many valid reasons that white people need to stay in South Africa

Are you seriously trying to make an argument that unemployment isn't a key indicator of economic health outside the US because the president doesn't rely on it to campaign? Unemployment and real wages are the key indicators for the economic health of citizens. Private corporations being able to turn a larger profit is a hollow victory while half of young people are jobless and what jobs there are pay less than before. No, I was judging it based on Iceland which did not do austerity but rather went for stimulation. And it worked out far better for them than austerity did for the successful example you gave, let alone how its worked out for Spain and Greece. There was a complete recovery , or more complete, for Iceland. You know how they pulled it off? They forgave mortgage debts, indicted private banks rather than bailing them out, and provided support for the poor. Which is exactly the opposite of what EU austerity has done over the last five years and judging by the effects it's clear that austerity does not result in growth and is an awful idea for a depressed economy. No what I am saying is various metrics are used to measure the effectiveness of austerity and umemployment is just one of them " Unemployment and real wages are the key indicators for the economic health of citizens. Private corporations being able to turn a larger profit is a hollow victory while half of young people are jobless and what jobs there are pay less than before" not when a country is undergoing austerity. Check this link http://www.bbc.com/news/10162176 So you will see the austerity objectives and they are all based on structural reforms to achieve two objectives ...to return stability and then growth to there economies They were not concerned with unemployment, that will come later as the free market naturally seizes opportunities So you cant see austerity in the light of unemployment By the way why are you on the Greek side? Why are you defending there failure to reform. You live in Texas, most people you know understand the EU perspective and are more loyal to it, don't be an ideological traitor now KP

I think you misunderstand me. I personally have a low threshold for what I consider scumbaggery and Cosby definitely fits the bill (see what I did there). As do all pedophiles, obviously. But thankfully for all concerned, they do not allow me to mete out justice, because I probably would not be able to strip out emotion and look at things objectively. That's why you must let the judicial system run its course, criminally. Socially/professionally hes already a dead man walking. I meant to say I know the majority of you guys aren't supportive of Cosby in any way ....you just not passing judgement like me I didn't mean to imply anything or make you feel guilty

Again you are not going into the links he posted or the one i posted (with sources from the IMF itself) that show that it clearly doesn´t work. You are trying to justify your nonsense with backpedaling on your inital point and now throwing in meaningless phrases like "different kind of success". You sound like an politican. Differences are given because of country specific economies. But there is no such thing like "it half worked", because then it still failed to achive what it meant to do. Because the debt didn´t shrink, unemployment is not shrinking but rising, the living standart is sinking, austeritiy did, effectivly not work. You bring in examples like economical growth and think this is a result of austerity. Yet the IMF report i linked to shows that this only a short time effect, because the real cost of austerity measures takes some time to come into effect. You also seem to forget that a) after a complete meltdown of a state, growth in some form is natural effect. It´s easy to say Spain has some growth when they were allready laying on the floor. Every country in history had growth after a financial disaster, but in my believe, with my knowledge, and with documents by IMF and others, Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and others would be better off with a) no austerity or very little, b) not having to conform with EU laws that may hinder them and c) their own currency with the ability to combat their problems. Even the EU is now acknowledging that the Euro might be the wrong thing for Greece. This is like Elrond saying that the EU helped Finnland. It´s easy to turn around and look at Finnland in the crisis and say "well the EU helped us" and in some aspects he is right. But you have to look at the long run. They too, are not doing well, no signigicant grow in economical terms, billions of loses due to sancations, and no way to devalue their currency (as they did many times in these cases) to make it easier. The same goes for a lot countries. A lot of people only look at the south, but Austria isn´t better. The french economy isn´t that great as reported in the news also. Stagnation is pretty evident in the Euro zone, and its the fault of the EU and a currency that should not be there in the first place. I mean seriously Spains youth unemployment rate is almost 50%. with only slight fluctuations. The youth rate is a good indicator on how well an economy is doing. It doesn´t look better in the other south countries btw. Portugal, living under austerity, has longer waiting lines infront of soup kitchens then the greece infront their banks. So, i ask you now, please with sources that are not easily debunked. How did austerity help anyone. Except the banks, and no you are wrong and right at the same time when you say a healthy bank system is needed for an economy. That is the case when you have financial control over your own currency, then it´s important. If you have a foreign currency, which the Euro effectly is, and you can´t influence it then you are a victim to that system because you can just react (bank bail-outs). THe only ones who make a profit on this system ARE the banks, not the people, not the country. Thats infact how these (illegal by EU law) loans to greece and others work. No country has billions laying around. So they take a credit getting into more debt, to loan that money to the troubled countries, yet most of it goes to that banks (who in return are mostly owned by the big banks who gave out the credit in the first place), while the people in the troubled country get austerity (often with privatization, greece shipyards, the backbone of their country, bought up by the owners of big banks say hello) so that country can pay the loans back and the big banks make the profit. How do you, who thinks he is so smart, DOESNT SEE HOW BAD THAT IS. No, i don´t expect a real answer from you, but surprise me. One more thing. Now i know you are not very well educated on this but really? "Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher" There are no high standars in the US. That country is trillions in debt...growing, with no chance every paying it back, and is only afloat because the dollar is still the world trading currency (a trend that is decreasing). They print that money like crazy, which also doesn´t work forever. And the backbone of their economy, the military complex, still finds countries to bomb into the ground. They have no economy to speak off, considering their size and population. Their unenployment rate is extremly high, it just looks low because the white house reports ignore a lot (easily debunked by experts all the time..look it up yourself). It´s always funny when the US lectures someone on debt. Heck, that goes for Germany too, they never paid their debt, they are in no possition to lecture anyone. Do you mind sharing with me where you were born? Are you native Austrian, the reason I ask is you and I are so far apart on most issues there has to be a valid reason like some Serbs who have a dislike of the West for Bosnia and Kosovo. There is nothing wrong with being honest, I am a white South African who was born in South Africa I am sorry to offend you now, I don't mean to but I can see no other way to make this point...you clearly don't understand what austerity means and how it is suppose to resolve the various economic issues plaguing certain EU countries Sorry but its true, I'll explain it later but not now. Two points that will confirm my suspicion is you linked the "IMF Report " as credible proof. Its a good read and paints an accurate and gloomy view of the EU and austerity ...except its over two years old, it came out in Jan 2013. It was only after that austerity started to see positive results..like Ireland leaving the bailout program end of 2013 So your " proof " is not only old but was wrong with its predictions Then your view that 24 % or 50 % unemployment is another sign that " how can you possibly say Spain is on the road to recovery " . You see you don't understand that there are various metrics the EU Troika uses to measures the success of austerity, two of them are the health of the banking system and the fact there economy is growing. You may ignore these and only focus on unemployment but that is not the accepted view of economists and EU Troika...and there opinion is what matters

You need to start pushing this point, you have been almost unconcerned about the excuses and justifications. And you are far too knowledgeable and reasonable to allow this to go on unchecked. People will believe the hyperbole if you don't say something, you know most people automatically dismiss my view even if I'm right And I believe you are a person of principles and integrity...so demonstrate it It feels like I am the only one pushing this view and saying " Greece needs to take responsibility " ...and I don't even live in Europe

Makes sense, the reason I am asking is this is something we grapple with in South Africa. We ask questions like " can you forgive people who discriminated against you ", " how do you forgive people who discriminated against you ", " what does it mean to be a South African...do we as whites need to accept some sense of responsibility for Apartheid even if we were kids at the time and had no influence " and other similar questions So I was interested in your view

Why? Most of europe has free speech. Historicaly speaking long before the US, which is no suprise because the US constitution is based on the Magna Carta Libertatum and it´s various interpretations. Long before the US even existed. I will never understand this. US people are so high on their "freedom" of everything, which compared to us, is just a given thing. In fact considering some laws you have, and the the goverment can do what it want, i would say your idea of freedom is even less than what we consider freedom in europe. Or Russia, which, surprise is also a democracy. I don´t get that "we are the land of the free we can say what we want" when this is standart in europe and factual isn´t even the case in the US. I just don´t get it. Do you care about the notion of free speech....seriously think about it, don't just say " yes " And tell me why you care if you don't mind ?

Forget that example, thats not the point What about pedophile rings that get busted? Don't you automatically assume they scum and guilty ? no, we don't assume they are guilty or scum. however, depending on the evidence made public available, we might protest or boycott. we might even use our First Amendment rights to criticize the State if it appears to us that there were a failure on the part o' lawyers or police or whomever that made it possible for seeming guilty folks to go free. we need be convinced that a person is scum... need more than mere accusation. however, what convinces Gromnir is likely gonna be different than what is required to convince gifted or bruce. good. am not seeing a problem if evidence made public is unconvincing to gifted but satisfies Gromnir that _________ is scum and we will henceforth never voluntarily do business with the d-bag. stuff such as "innocent until proven guilty" is not a standard for the court o' public opinion. if __________ is an accused pedophile, then how much evidence do we require to convince us that ___________ is not somebody we wanna leave alone with our pre-teen cousin, regardless o' whether or not we is certain that they is legal guilty? chances are that we need little such evidence in that situation, eh? for us, legal guilt is a complete different query. there can be any number o' reasons why the State fails to prosecute a scumbag. is even more reasons why the State may fail to gain a conviction o' a scumbag. am understanding that such a pov can seem self-contradictory. HA! Good Fun! No its not self-contradictory but offers a more honest, nuanced and complex perspective which I enjoy Do you consider the First Amendment as sacrosanct? And from some of your personal experiences growing up and being discriminated against by "Americans " I am impressed again that this didn't make you jaded and unconcerned with the US Constitution....or did you resent White people when you were younger and if so what changed ( I remember you did mention this that you had some animosity towards Whites because of how they treated you and your Gran )

The court of public opinion is not the same as a court of law. One of the reasons for a court is to strip away the emotions and examine the facts. Fair enough, I need to give you a valid analogy ....okay let me think about it. The problem being Cosby hasn't been charged yet Here is a good read that may change your mind http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/08/us/bill-cosby-sexual-assault-allegations/index.html

Forget that example, thats not the point What about pedophile rings that get busted? Don't you automatically assume they scum and guilty ?

Interesting answer, you see when it comes to my personal views on Cosby I can't separate the guilty and the fact he is a dirtbag You do have more temperance than me but that doesn't surprise me because of your life experiences. For me its simple, if a guy commits rape on this scale I cannot show much restraint if we believe he has done wrong, then we want to see the process applied fair. we don't need legal punishment per se. ... am gonna admit that there is cases in which we suspect that the process has been subverted. is the State v. Defendant in a criminal case. is not victim v. Defendant. is society as a whole that is s'posed getting justice. however, as a complete random example, a wealthy defendant might be able to convince a victim to refrain from testifying. is pretty much 0 chance a prosecutor is gonna try and nail a defendant for rape w/o the cooperation o' the victim. so, am much bothered when we see a professional basketball player (again, is complete random example) possible escape justice by what amounts to paying off the victim. such results offend us. HA! Good Fun! Yes but what about people who do wrong outside the USA ....like ISIS You would judge them right? I am missing the part of why you guys don't want to pass judgement as I think we do it all the time ?

Interesting answer, you see when it comes to my personal views on Cosby I can't separate the guilty and the fact he is a dirtbag You do have more temperance than me but that doesn't surprise me because of your life experiences. For me its simple, if a guy commits rape on this scale I cannot show much restraint

I'm not talking about my personal feelings because I'm trying not to make this about personal feelings. Here is what I'm seeing: Woman accuses guy of rape More women accuse guy of rape People complain the public isn't believing the weight of the accusations against guy and point to this being a "Rape Culture" that denies rape and enable rapists So my questions stands, how should society treat a guy accused of rape so as to not be a part of "rape culture"? Should we fire him? Boycott his work? How do we demonstrate that we don't support rape? What vigilante justice will make our society right in light of accusations - regardless of how many - that have never led to a court decision? So its okay to "make it real" without his day in court? What penalty should be lodged by society towards the accused to show it has been made real? "Woman accuses guy of rape More women accuse guy of rape People complain the public isn't believing the weight of the accusations against guy and point to this being a "Rape Culture" that denies rape and enable rapists" Is this a common issue because only then would your concern make sense ? Surly you aren't worried this may happen?

I don't think anyone took the stories more seriously because some comedian said something. But my point is what defines taking the accusations seriously in the first place? Somebody is accused of rape by multiple people. What should our reaction be? make the accused the subject of gossip and rumor? assume the accused is guilty until proven innocent? publicly denounce the accused for their alleged actions? shun the accused? ensure the accused loses their job and livelyhood? ensure the accused loses custody of their children? ensure that the accused is cut off from all ties to the human race? In short, what precisely is the appropriate reaction when a person has been accused as opposed to found guilty (criminal) or liable (civil)? I'm not talking about whether a person thinks he's guilty or not. What I'm talking about is what is the desired reaction to an accusation of rape? Because what is apparent is that there are people who believe that we should treat an accusation of rape as proof of rape. That apparently giving the accuser the benefit of the doubt as opposed to storming their house and tarring and feathering them isn't the right reaction. So tell me, how should we react to demonstrate we are against rape? Not intentionally I'm not. Again as I said yesterday I've made no claims intentionally regarding people making up their own mind or forming their own opinions. But you - amid the news reporter-pundit types as well - keep talking about how "the general public has failed to take the stories seriously". So here's my question, how are we supposed to demonstrate that we take the stories seriously? What does that mean? What rights do we deprive the accused of to demonstrate that we're taking these accusations seriously? This is the point I'm getting at. I think you need to use common sense when it comes to rape allegations ...are you really telling me that you don't think he is guilty because he hasn't been convicted or charged ? You need to respond how you feel is appropriate when someone is guilty of habitual rape...I imagine surprise and condemnation and sorrow for his victims. And then a reminder of how much work is still to be done so going forward people don't get away with it Desired reaction? Nothing really expect for personal views and forum comments ...but he needs to see his day in court to make it real for most people

Gromnir your view on this topic matters to me because I generally agree with your logic Surly you believe he is guilty and please don't say " no I always wait for trials before formulating an opinion " What do you think based on everything that has happened ?