BruceVC

citation needed

I voted but you cannot expect people not to whine as they are different games so the comparison is unfair

Sure I'll respect your wishes but anyone actually bothering to read this will see you were disingenuous..." I want an apology " ....seriously ? Why don't we rather go skipping through the fields ..hand in hand

Haven't been for a while, but I enjoy the off-strip casinos as much as the wretched-excess monuments. The ones with gold lightbulb marquees and buffets for retired people. Next time I go, I'd like to catch a Supercross race, or bomb Natties with rednecks at the Speedway. No I wouldn't. Yes I would. The dirtbikes anyway. Monster Energy girls carry signs on the track that say "30 Seconds to Go" which somehow seems familiar and shameful at the same time. Why do you guys leave out the strip clubs ? Are you embarrassed...please dont tell me you guys did nothing similar to that in Vegas

I am not taking credit for anything. I made a statement of fact, whether the initial accussation against Gamergate that your side made was absurd or not, the fact remains that the diversity of race and gender amongst Gamergate was proven by the #notyourshield campaign. The harassment accusation was disproven by analysis of Twitter. These are simply two facts, whatever you think of them is irrelevant, they disproved false accusations and were victories for Gamergate against those whom were mislabelling it. They are facts, part of the five I have provided, you have provided none, thus you are proven to not be interested in pursuing factual discourse. That is the end of the matter. Now apologise for calling me a liar and prove that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise again, you have spent five pages skirting this issue and proving that you are both dishonest and unable to answer any question posed to you. Give me a straight answer for once, stop avoiding the issue like a coward. Oh I never said you were pursing a false agenda..I said sometimes you use grandstanding and hyperbole I am going to wait for someone else who is trustworthy to comment on who is correct, you and I are too emotionally involved You did accuse me of pursuing a false agenda at the end of the last thread but one, and I am perfectly calm and not emotionally invested at all, if you wish to be a coward and run away from an argument that you are losing that is fine. I expected nothing else from you. Since you are now proven to be incapable of engaging in factual discourse, have still not apologised for calling me a liar nor provided any evidence that I pursue a false agenda or offered an apology for that, I am going to ignore you again. One cannot get any kind of answer out of you nor expect any kind of honesty so discussion is pointless. Please don't try and engage in dialogue with me again, thank you. Nonek you need to understand I do this for a living, as in RL Your intentions were so transparent, you had no real interest in debating with me. You were never debating in good faith...but I did enjoy this little chat

I am not taking credit for anything. I made a statement of fact, whether the initial accussation against Gamergate that your side made was absurd or not, the fact remains that the diversity of race and gender amongst Gamergate was proven by the #notyourshield campaign. The harassment accusation was disproven by analysis of Twitter. These are simply two facts, whatever you think of them is irrelevant, they disproved false accusations and were victories for Gamergate against those whom were mislabelling it. They are facts, part of the five I have provided, you have provided none, thus you are proven to not be interested in pursuing factual discourse. That is the end of the matter. Now apologise for calling me a liar and prove that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise again, you have spent five pages skirting this issue and proving that you are both dishonest and unable to answer any question posed to you. Give me a straight answer for once, stop avoiding the issue like a coward. Oh I never said you were pursing a false agenda..I said sometimes you use grandstanding and hyperbole I am going to wait for someone else who is trustworthy to comment on who is correct, you and I are too emotionally involved

Nonek ...no offense but I am not sure if you understand my question. If you don't mind I just want confirmation from someone else that points 4 & 5 are indeed examples of a GG victory...I just don't see it? I repeat Gamergaters were labelled en masse as misogynist and racist, this was disproven by the #Notyourshield campaign, thus Gamergate scored a victory against those whom were misrepresenting it. This is simple and undeniable. Gamergate was labelled a harassment campaign, this was disproven by independent Twitter analytics, thus once more Gamergate scored a victory against those whom were misrepresenting it. This is simple and undeniable. I have provided five factual statements, you have provided none, thus I dismiss your claim that you are interested in factual discussion. Oh I take back that I said you are a liar, that was wrong Not good enough, apologise and please provide evidence that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise for that as well. I know you think I'm avoiding answering you but I'm actually helping you .....to say " we proved that GG wasn't full of sexists " was obvious. I engage with most of you guys everyday, I know you aren't sexist or misogynistic. Anyone who suggested that the thousands of people who flocked to GG were all sexist is making an utterly absurd and unsubstantiated statement...many of them were indeed white,male gamers but that is fine and understandable Please stop trying to take credit for something that was obvious

Oh I take back that I said you are a liar, that was wrong

Nonek ...no offense but I am not sure if you understand my question. If you don't mind I just want confirmation from someone else that points 4 & 5 are indeed examples of a GG victory...I just don't see it?

Numerous publications have changed or implemented new ethics policies - Okay well if you consider this a victory, I never had an issue with this , individuals such as Ms Alexander, Mr Kuchera, Mr Chipman etcetera have been shown the door for their blatant contempt for the custome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Alexander_(journalist) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Kuchera They seem fine to me? the twelve gamers are dead articles are now being frantically back pedalled from and their message desperately denied by the indoctrinated Yeah this was silly but I said you guys misunderstood this , the ridiculous accusation that the men and women of Gamergate are all misogynists and racists is becoming laughable, No this isn't true I agree and all this when the media have been spinning a proven false dialogue that Gamergate is a harassment campaign. Once again this is not an absolute and also false. I agree So to be honest I only see point 1 as valid ? The last two are just silly generalizations that were unnecessary and you shouldn't have worried about 1. So this is one fact I have made. 2. They were both removed from their previous positions, another fact. 3. The articles were published and are now being backpedalled from, another fact. 4. So you agree, another fact. 5. You agree again, another fact. All five of my claims were true, all five of yours were false. You have lied five times now, produced no facts and conceded that I have five times. Now please provide evidence that I am a liar and pursuing a false agenda as you stated, or apologise and deny that you are interested in providing any facts. This is not about facts in the general sense ..this is suppose to be about examples of GG victory ? How can you see 4 & 5 as examples? You are not taking this debate seriously

Numerous publications have changed or implemented new ethics policies - Okay well if you consider this a victory, I never had an issue with this , individuals such as Ms Alexander, Mr Kuchera, Mr Chipman etcetera have been shown the door for their blatant contempt for the custome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Alexander_(journalist) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Kuchera They seem fine to me? the twelve gamers are dead articles are now being frantically back pedalled from and their message desperately denied by the indoctrinated Yeah this was silly but I said you guys misunderstood this , the ridiculous accusation that the men and women of Gamergate are all misogynists and racists is becoming laughable, No this isn't true I agree and all this when the media have been spinning a proven false dialogue that Gamergate is a harassment campaign. Once again this is not an absolute and also false. I agree So to be honest I only see point 1 as valid ? The last two are just silly generalizations that were unnecessary and you shouldn't have worried about

I read this post and yet I still can't determine one example of " GG victory " . Once again Nonek drop the grandstanding and post some facts ? Anita and her kind are still active, certain websites still push SJ issues, companies like Bioware have embraced progressive change, E3 had all these token female developers and companies like Obsidian are concerned with the views of the LGBT community These are all " victories " to me...you see I post facts. Please do the same if you want to convince people of the GG victory I posted facts, you do not as I shall demonstrate: 1. Mr McIntosh's sock puppet is a laughing stock whose cause that games cause violence and sexism has been disproven. 2. Certain websites still pushing SJF issues does not invalidate the victories of Gamergate when those websites have had to implement ethics policies. 3. Bioware are doing what Origin did twenty plus years ago they have embraced regressive change. 4. E3 had less female representation this year than the last. 5. Obsidian are interested in making a profit, which has nothing to do with the struggle for ethics that Gamergate works for, their audience is their own business. Now please disprove the facts that I posted above, respond to my earlier question and prove that I am a liar and pursuing a false agenda as you stated, and for Gods sake read a dictionary and look up grandstanding, you are the one doing that not I. If you cannot do this and provide factual evidence then please stop responding to my posts, as I do not wish to hear the same condescending rhetoric repeated again and again. Nonek I was wondering when you were going to stop ignoring me...I admit I missed our chats and even the insults from you I am going to try very hard to answer your questions but sometimes I can't due to time restraints and the fact we were asked to not hijack the thread which was exactly why I didn't respond to you last time. So don't become too hangup when I can't respond, sometimes there are valid reasons. I need to research your points ....I would prefer not to but I will if you insist in the interests of proper forum etiquette ?

You funny, yes I would miss you You are very interesting person and you often misunderstood

What? Is this September 2014? This ride will never end. Seriously what is the end goal? There is something I must concede that I didn't want to develop. GG has created something meaningful..there is now a block of very connected and committed people who are opposed to SJ campaigns on different levels. It consists of mostly white, male gamers and they have some valid concerns and have a logical reason to exist I obviously won't judge my own race for making a misplaced stand so I am not opposed to them as much as people think Why does it need to have an end goal? It is pretty much born out of concern and a love for the industry and games, they want gaming to be better and not just SJ propaganda. If the SJ movement in gaming dies down then they the GG people will die down as well, or at least until the next outrage. They act as a consumers watch, which has banded together borne out of necessity since the journalists tend to be either on the side of publishers or ideologically inclined to causes not everyone shares. It will die down but I don't there will be a clear end. Ah finally a really relevant question...you ask " why does it have to have an end goal " Sorry to sound critical but I am going to be honest. I respect you see GG as a consumers watch and you really believe in this but the whole movement just seems nebulous around tangible objectives. Real objectives makes it easier to convince people about your narrative...and you do have valid concerns that could be positioned better. So ask yourself what your real goals are that gives you purpose and direction. Us SJW have this, that is what makes our views unequivocal and easier to explain I mean imagine meeting someone at a bar and trying to explain what GG is about ? GG has had short term goals which they have termed operations, that link to the larger goal of ethics in game journalism and (disavowedly) fighting SJ menace. Orog you are reasonable person so do you see what I mean. I gave you time to think about it and thats all you could think of ? Don't you see the issue...it lacks real substance. Its like you saying " oh well our goal is to fight SJW when it suits us " ?

To say your example of a GG victory is " I'm a gamer, still alive, playing violent games with B00BIES. That is PURE GG VICTORY " just seems like a very low bar to set yourself? Think about it and post something more significant, I'm actually trying to help you

I read this post and yet I still can't determine one example of " GG victory " . Once again Nonek drop the grandstanding and post some facts ? Anita and her kind are still active, certain websites still push SJ issues, companies like Bioware have embraced progressive change, E3 had all these token female developers and companies like Obsidian are concerned with the views of the LGBT community These are all " victories " to me...you see I post facts. Please do the same if you want to convince people of the GG victory

What? Is this September 2014? This ride will never end. Seriously what is the end goal? There is something I must concede that I didn't want to develop. GG has created something meaningful..there is now a block of very connected and committed people who are opposed to SJ campaigns on different levels. It consists of mostly white, male gamers and they have some valid concerns and have a logical reason to exist I obviously won't judge my own race for making a misplaced stand so I am not opposed to them as much as people think Why does it need to have an end goal? It is pretty much born out of concern and a love for the industry and games, they want gaming to be better and not just SJ propaganda. If the SJ movement in gaming dies down then they the GG people will die down as well, or at least until the next outrage. They act as a consumers watch, which has banded together borne out of necessity since the journalists tend to be either on the side of publishers or ideologically inclined to causes not everyone shares. It will die down but I don't there will be a clear end. Ah finally a really relevant question...you ask " why does it have to have an end goal " Sorry to sound critical but I am going to be honest. I respect you see GG as a consumers watch and you really believe in this but the whole movement just seems nebulous around tangible objectives. Real objectives makes it easier to convince people about your narrative...and you do have valid concerns that could be positioned better. So ask yourself what your real goals are that gives you purpose and direction. Us SJW have this, that is what makes our views unequivocal and easier to explain I mean imagine meeting someone at a bar and trying to explain what GG is about ?

At the start of this whole thing, I was mildly in support of GG: I agreed with a lot of their stated ideals (though not all), but I didn't particularly want to be associated with them due to reputation issues: more specifically, the louder more fringe (in my opinion) elements, but as well as the problem of needless polarization and demonization (again, in my opinion) between the different factions that I felt was at least partly borne out of what I felt was a combination of both ignorance and obtuseness on both sides. I just did not want to be a part of it regardless of which side I more closely aligned with. There was also the fact that I view the gaming industry as a bit of a lost cause for a variety reasons at this point anyways (and not limited just to GG's stances, I might add: I take at least few from opposing viewpoints, too, though I may have somewhat different thoughts on them...but that's true for GG's stances, too). Nowadays, even though my opinions in this regard haven't much changed, I feel more strongly aligned with GG than before - even though I sometimes still disagree with some of the methods and ideas employed by the movement, I disagree even more with some of what I consider to be the lunacy of the anti-GG. I am still, however, not actually associating with them, though. However...I find it ironic that you're the one asking me this, Bruce, because you're at least partly to blame for that: when somebody mentions "anti-GG", I can't but help think of you as being my sort of mental "representation" for their ideas and ideals and arguments...and your posts on this subject as well as in other political topics are genuinely so infuriating to me (yes, yours specifically: no-one else in these topics that I disagree with - even those I chronically disagree with - has ever gotten even half as bothersome to me so far), that the anti-GG side seems almost anathematic to me at this point. I don't mean this to devolve into a personal attack, particularly because you seem like a mostly genuinely pleasant person outside of these topics (and also you seem to attempt to be pleasant even inside of them, although it mostly seems to have the opposite effect on me)...but every time I enter one of these topics and I see posts like your latest ones in this topic (not necessarily the ones in reply to Amentep - besides the "degrade" one - or the one to aluminiumtrioxid, but the oh-so-condescending ones before in reply to Meshuggah and Orogun), I can't help but consider putting you on my ignore list because I know that there's no way that I can discuss with you in a acceptable manner (in regards to the rules and basic politeness) without at least reverting to extreme passive-aggressiveness...which is still not acceptable to me, seeing as I'm very often not correct/100% on the mark all of the time, which, combined with me likely sounding like a jerk to you and everyone else, is not something I really want to be engaging with. It's also not very healthy/satisfactory for me, either. Again, sorry if this seems mean and overly personal: I really don't mean to be, and I'm trying to make it as polite as possible while still being honest: you just drive me crazy in these sorts of topics, Bruce. I also recognize that this is purely a personal problem. Anyone who wants to criticize me in turn, feel free to take a shot so I can feel better about this post. Alternatively, you can deny me that and make me extra feel like a jerk. It's up to you, readers. (edit): Also, this took me literally like 45 minutes to write out. Don't say I didn't try my best, at the very least. Barti !! Stop being a bad boy I very very seldom take anything personally, so please I prefer your brutal honesty. I really don't mind because I have to be honest I feel I am right about all the points I make. I don't mind that most of you guys disagree with me....that doesn't change the fact what I say is true and if you understood it you would be a much more fulfilled and relaxed person as things would make sense (of course sometimes I am wrong and then I generally admit it ) But I can't force you to see things from my perspective so I just hope you come around on your own but if not I will continue to raise important and different views from what most of you believe about this whole GG fiasco

Sorry, wasn't meaning to make you feel bad; I did think supporting the publication of Hogan having sex in private with another man's wife because adultry was immoral was dispicable. Neither Hogan or the other man's wife really "deserved" their intimate moments to be posted to the internet. You did make me feel bad but I don't blame you....you played the guilt card marked with fact. There is a difference between Zoe Quinn who was a no name, diffident , depressed programmer having an affair with some equally no name " gaming journalist " and Hogan the super-celebrity sleeping with his friends wife...yet they are also similar so I had to concede I was wrong

Not if one of the groups is wearing hazmat suits. The hazmat suits would get dirty. And in taking them off the people inside might get dirty. And the person who cleans them might get dirty. And the person inside might get dirty if the suit isn't properly sealed... ...what was my point again? The hazmat suit wearers can wipe each other down before taking off their hazmat suits. Crisis averted. (edit): Except for those not wearing the hazmat suits. They're still dirty. Barti darling who do you support ..GG or anti-GG And before you answer please make the decision based on the overall state of this whole furor and not what you think people on this forum want you to say

What? Is this September 2014? This ride will never end. Seriously what is the end goal? There is something I must concede that I didn't want to develop. GG has created something meaningful..there is now a block of very connected and committed people who are opposed to SJ campaigns on different levels. It consists of mostly white, male gamers and they have some valid concerns and have a logical reason to exist I obviously won't judge my own race for making a misplaced stand so I am not opposed to them as much as people think

...How exactly are you expecting any good-faith discussion to ensue when you're literally incapable of not assuming the worst of the people sitting on the other side of the table? I don't think either side is capable of not assuming the worst of the people across the table. That's how "ethics in journalism" and "anti-harassment" and "better/more positive/more inclusive representation" and "disclosure of areas of potential bias in news articles" end up being opposing concepts (when there's nothing inherent in one that precludes the others other than the sides have drawn their lines in the sand). Lets not degrade both sides to the lowest closest denominator...GG is still worse than anti-GG at the end of the day if you look at everything that occurred ? When two groups fight in the mud, don't both get dirty? You cute with your diplomacy that builds at times to irrefutable logic....but not when I''m on the receiving end like when you called me despicable about the Hogan incident....it was true that's what bothered me and my code made it mandatory to accept I was wrong I can easily dispute emotion and invective....in fact I thrive on it but not hard facts

that is simply false and have been tried times and times again, especially by those that want GG to die. What is false? That if the Ethics Brigade had re-organized themselves under a different hashtag, it probably would have been harder to paint them as harrassers? I have a hard time accepting "this is false because reasons" as an answer, especially since the method hasn't been tried, therefore the conviction that it is, indeed, false, seems misplaced. "Maybe it would have worked but it's been decided that it's a slim chance, and comes with associated risks we're not willing to take" sounds vaguely more honest and less like outright accusing the other party of having ulterior motives is all I'm saying. What. I mean, "divide" I get, but how exactly can you get "conquered"? It's not like the group's been represented in a manner members saw as "fair" by media outlets that aren't manned by opportunistic ****bags (looking at you, Milo). Worst case scenario, instead of an amorphous blob that prides itself on being incoherent, you'd get two amorphous blobs, working ostensibly for the same goal, hopefully with a little less harrassment from one blob. ...How exactly are you expecting any good-faith discussion to ensue when you're literally incapable of not assuming the worst of the people sitting on the other side of the table? ...I'm shocked, shocked to discover that a splinter group centered solely on mockery instead of meaningful dialogue and an exploration of issues in journalistic integrity has failed to become a baggage-free bastion of enlightened discourse regarding ethics. You don't see a splinter-group as weakening GG? Weeding out the "bad" elements? Maybe a leader or group deciding what should be in or not? Kicking Milo because people do not like him? No dividing? lol, you're not even trying. GG has its cause(s) and that's it. Its existence should not, and will not be dependent on the approval of those that hate it. Oh, i did forget one thing, there is meaningful dialogue with the Society of Professional Journalists already: Meshugger I understand why you are trying to defend GG...you may actually believe it but please trust me its misplaced You have made your point about things that annoyed you like the Alexander article and even won some battles but now its time to move on..what do you gain by this "GG has its causes " ...do you even have an end goal?

...How exactly are you expecting any good-faith discussion to ensue when you're literally incapable of not assuming the worst of the people sitting on the other side of the table? I don't think either side is capable of not assuming the worst of the people across the table. That's how "ethics in journalism" and "anti-harassment" and "better/more positive/more inclusive representation" and "disclosure of areas of potential bias in news articles" end up being opposing concepts (when there's nothing inherent in one that precludes the others other than the sides have drawn their lines in the sand). Lets not degrade both sides to the lowest closest denominator...GG is still worse than anti-GG at the end of the day if you look at everything that occurred ?

It's very kind of you to say that, but I'm afraid that's not true, and claiming such isn't really doing the quality of the debate any favors. Sorry but I didn't say that to flatter you. I never do that, but its true. There will always be someone who is clever than you in a debate but knowing that actually helps you work out how to engage with them properly