BruceVC

Its not moderated enough and it allows these bizarre subcultures to exist and gives them a voice in its own limited way. When people are allowed to say what they want with no sense of consequence they start to believe what they are saying and this leads to anti-social behavior and perspectives Of course this doesn't apply to all of reddit, I am just highlighting the issues I have with it as you asked

Good story, when you think about all the advancements we have made in medicine its scary to think about your niece living 50 years ago (?) she probably wouldn't have made it this far. Yet our understanding of medicine has allowed her to have an almost normal life. We do live in the greatest era of mankind despite all our challengers

Some belated good news, my PoE shirt arrived yesterday that I got as part of my funding tier Its not a bad quality shirt so I am happy

Belated Happy 4th July for all our American members

Yeah, like the Tories have done in the UK. Economy still below 2008 levels, by a fair bit, GDP: debt ratio up to ~85% from 40% in 2009, despite all the rhetoric no actual surplus in sight. Iceland is doing better than that, despite their default. What's needed is pragmatism, and not slavish adherence to some Eton knob end's entirely on paper in Excel economic model that bears as little resemblance to reality as an 18 year old liberal art student's who has just read Marx for the first time. To be fair it would have been far better for the UK if your government had followed our Labour's 2000 era example in its pragmatism (ie paying back debt and establishing a proper pension fund- at 17% returns p/a- while the going was good in the early 2000s; in contrast our Tories have more than doubled debt and never had a surplus, just like yours) but it's too late to go back in time and tell Gordon and Tony that maybe they should pay back some money in the good times and not allow banks to be morans. Yeah good points Monte, Zora you were doing so well with convincing people that you cared about the Greeks and there situation...I almost fell for it But then the old " down with the West " sentiment comes through and we see the real invective and animosity that you feel that motivates most of your views So now the UK becomes a target of your criticism ....hey maybe we can blame the USA for this? You never know, there will be some website that will blame the USA for the Greek crisis ...you just need to look hard enough ? And lamenting the loss of Berlusconi ...wow....okay. He must be one of the most controversial and corrupt leaders Italy has seen post WW2 . You should see him getting replaced as something positive

Volo, you are misunderstanding a few things, this is also about the principle. You can't have teachers sleeping with students...surly you can understand this is a bad thing?

Melk I'm glad you decided to contribute towards this debate, Hi " waves " Can you share with us you are voting for and what the general sentiment in your circles is around Yes or No ? I know it is going to be very close in the vote tomorrow

I love the way some commentators are saying this vote on Sunday is " either the end or new beginning of the EU " Why? Worst case scenario Greece leaves the EU ...its not like every other country undergoing austerity is going to leave. In fact I would argue that when people see the economic consequences of what happens when you leave the EU under these circumstances it will be convince the likes of Spain and Portugal that the austerity measures are necessary I don't see the vote that Greece will make as the great "seismic event that will decide the future of the EU"

??? What is the American a symbol of that's so bad? Yes I am also interested in what Volo means?

He's so dreamy. I watched that whole video and he does make the Greek position in a reasonable way. The main issue I have with his story is the original loans from the IMF, Germany and the ECB were used to address the Greek solvency issues...how would you have prevented Greek bankruptcy without these loans?

Okay I see your point , funny enough there is a real view that a EU without Greece is a stronger EU under the circumstances. So if Russia wants to inherit the Greek issues in the unlikely event they leave the EU this is fine...it will be to there detriment But for me this isn't about geo-politics, this is about the best future for the Greek people and that lies with the EU and the painful but necessary austerity measures

You seem to think that Russia with its economic woes is just going to jump in to be able to give Greece billions of Euros ? The current Greek government has already been Russia to discuss this but we aren't privy to what was discussed yet clearly it wasn't ideal because Tsipras would have jumped ship to the Russians if he could have as he clearly doesn't like the EU that much And the Chinese? They have the money but generally don't interfere in these types of international events so I don't expect them to get involved ?

So I was reading these new required loans that Greece needs over the next 3 years For those people who are opposed to the lending of money to Greece and blaming Germany for actually lending money to Greece what is the next step around this? Where does Greece get this money from ? Because this has always been the issue, Greece has needed billions of Euros in relief to stay afloat yet when this money is then lent to Greece this is also criticized. So clearly institutions like the ECB and IMF are out this equation because they also been attacked for lending the money to Greece ....so what next?

Ideally they would have decided that Greece could not pay back their debt under any reasonable circumstance in 2008- they already have the largest primary (ie before interest payments) surplus at 5% in Europe and by a reasonable margin, plus the harshest austerity; if they aren't going to pay money back in those circumstances you've got to just face reality instead of continuing bullheadedly. Even more ideally in 2002 you either have a proper Euro zone with a proper common fiscal policy like aggregated borrowing and rules that are followed by everyone*, or decide to have no Euro. Since you cannot do either without a time machine and more political will than anyone in Europe has that leaves two options, reduce the debt to a reasonable level via a 'haircut', which is what happened for Germany post WW2, or let Greece leave the Euro on terms as amicable as possible and just take the damage from default. Increasing debt levels on Greece and increasing debt levels of your own when it cannot in any reasonable sense be paid back is simply stupid and benefits no one except those ideologically wedded to the ideal of the Euro for whom a grexit is simple anathema and the death knell of out and out integrationism. In the more general sense, there's no literal obligation on Germany to remember and reciprocate their debt being forgiven, that's a part of it being forgiven after all. Morally though? One of the fundamentals not just of 'good manners' but of diplomacy and all other forms of balanced relationships is reciprocity, the idea that you don't just do stuff to benefit yourself all the time and that when you benefit from another's action, well, one good turn deserves another. If Greece helped Germany out under circumstances where they'd be justified in saying "no" emphatically there is a moral obligation of reciprocity on Germany's part for precisely that reason. *And it should be noted, even the rules that do exist now are regularly ignored by nearly everyone. Fair enough, you make some good points. I guess we need to wait and see

Really Bruce, even for you that is particularly... unique* perspective given how many Greeks the Germans outright killed, let alone the damage they did to the country and its economy over WW2. Blame me for mentioning Lidice, I guess, even if I couched it as a economic comparison I clearly should have used Kondomari/ Kalavryta/ Kandanos instead- just on Crete, mind you. Just in case anyone doesn't know the details, Germany declared war on and conquered Greece during WW2 with commensurate deaths in combat, mass murder, starvation, destruction of property, mass appropriation and the like. 12 years after that they forgave Germany their debt. Bruce is right, that's not really similar circumstances- half a million (7% of pop) Greeks died as a result of WW2, I'm pretty sure not a single German has died due to issuing stupid loans that can't be paid back. BTW Bruce, won't get much more west than Greece, cradle of western civilisation and that. Oh,* * I am not looking at this whole Greek crisis in the context of WW2 or what the Nazis did. That is actually a complete distraction that seems to be gaining some semblance of support based on that excellent article Jaded posted. That article did raise some good points but it hasn't fundamentally changed my view on what Germany is expecting from Greece But just to add something to your point, after the disastrous implementation of the Versailles Treaty the European countries realized that punitive economic steps actually led to the rise of Hitler. So yes I agree the Greeks were magnanimous to be so reasonable to the Germans 10 years after WW2 but that also made economic sense. Sometimes integration is a better way to get a country like Germany to become a important member of Europe again. And that was the right decision considering how Germany now contributes to the overall EU. So without sounding dismissive of how the Greeks suffered in WW2 I still don't see how what Greece did for Germany in the 1950's should somehow influence what Germany does now around the Greek bailouts and austerity expectations? Honestly tell me what you would like Germany to do? I am going to be honest but I think most of this criticism from the European members on these forums towards Germany is actually based unintentionally on something that article mentions that Jaded posted. I think there is a strange and historical resentment towards Germany from many Europeans because end of the day some people don't like how the EU strategies seem to be influenced by a seemingly "belligerent and forceful " Germany .." we beat the Germans in two world wars but now they are telling us what to do " mentality I can understand this but its misplaced. Germany has become an economic powerhouse ..not a military one. The only ideology they are concerned with is good governance and member states adhering to necessary austerity. People should be grateful that Germany is being so forceful around the Greek issue..someone has to. What do you think would happen if the other countries in Europe undergoing austerity also had far left parties come to power and they also just decided they wanted to rewrite the austerity agreements. This contagion would lead to serious issues for the EU and its economic stability So once again Germany has to be relatively strict with Greece because of the consequences of them deciding not to continue to pay the required loan amounts. That would lead to a dangerous precedent and set a very bad example for other countries.

You see for me this post has some accurate and inclusive points but it seems to focus on the wrong considerations around the Greek crisis Why do we feel the need to blame a country like Germany for becoming the most dominant economy in Europe despite losing its holistic global identity for decades after WW2 and having to recreate its financial institutions. Yet despite all this they persevered and have a strong export based economy. I often hear people say " the EU was great for the Germans as it benefited there economic model...but not so good for everyone else in the EU like the PIGS " Why? Why couldn't any other country have also adopted an export model that worked well in the EU. Its almost like we are blaming the Germans for having the diligence and work ethos to become efficient in the EU ? Greece wanted to join the EU, they weren't bribed (?) and didn't need much motivation and there is evidence that they did exaggerate there economic status to join. You can't expect the Germans to take responsibility for ensuring the Greeks were being honest about what they brought to the EU? You did note IMO exactly why Greece is in this mess where you said And Greece, in particular, has been especially profligate with this credit-- it used it to fund a huge, well-compensated, well-pensioned civil service, and to avoid serious efforts at tax enforcement. And nobody cared until the '08 financial crisis taught us that banks couldn't just hedge away all their default risks anymore" These are the fundamental causes, the other things you mentioned I'm sure contributed but they weren't as relevant as the mismanagement above Lets expect countries like Greece with such ancient history and knowledge to at least manage its own institutions properly. And the criticism about the initial large loans that Greece asked for and now has become the fault of the various institutions like the IMF, Germany and Euro Central Bank for lending them the money seems utterly bizarre. If Greece asked for these loans and was prepared to adopt the austerity that was expected why shouldn't the money have been given to them. Imagine how embarrassing for the Greeks and condescending it would have been if the Germans has said in the beginning of the loan cycle " no we don't believe you can pay us back, we won't give you the benefit of the doubt and just kick you out now " Come on guys countries really need to take responsibility for there own actions and decisions....and lets stop blaming the Germans for having one of the few very functional economies in the EU I would like to advice you to read up more on the subject. I'd like to point you to der Spiegel, which is obviously written by Germans, who frequently point out how things are a little more complicated than "Hur dur, the poor hard working Germans lent all that money to the lazy, sneaky, greedy Greeks, and now they refuse to pay it back!!!". This is an interesting article, for example: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-power-in-the-age-of-the-euro-crisis-a-1024714.html I am sorry thats what you think I am suggesting, I am saying the Germans are not at fault with providing loans to Greece and trusting them to stick to there austerity agreements But thanks for the article, I'll read it

Okay but where is the relevance to the current Greek crisis? Are you saying that Germany was given a structured way to repay debt and Greece showed them some compromise and good spirt at the time Do you think this should motivate Germany to do the same now with Greece due to this historical decision? I can see the point but the circumstances are vastly different

That's unacceptable, you will buy both games on Day 1 or people will be forced to call you out as a " fake gamer " ...imagine the shame

Don't know about especially profligate, their debt: GDP ratio didn't spike until 2008 and didn't significantly increase from that of their Euro accession so their borrowing was keeping pace with growth. It was retrospectively stupid, massively so, but it was a retrospective stupidity nearly everyone had over the equivalent period and which they were at least somewh,at encouraged towards by the same people who are complaining now about bailing them out. Fundamentally, few nations paid back debt in the early-mid 2000s as they should have, and wherever they were. And I guess I'd also chirp in again there should be an obligation on lenders to lend with some responsibility as well as for borrowers to borrow responsibly, and significant consequences if they don't. The tax enforcement thing is also a bit overstated, though obviously more is better for their situation. I was rather surprised myself but in 2009 Greece's black/ grey economy was almost exactly 20% (wikipedia says 25%, but their maths is simply wrong, herp derp) of GDP with well regulated and efficient Germany having 15% GDP grey/ black economy. There isn't that much room for improvement, certainly not as much as there is generally implied to be. Yeah I knew without absolute certainty that you would be one of the people blaming the Germans and basically suggesting that the EU is fundamentally flawed. At least you are consistent with the anti-Western diatribe . I know whenever a discussion about the state of a situation in the world exists, be it Ukraine, Serbia or Syria, its always the West fault hey Zora ?

You see for me this post has some accurate and inclusive points but it seems to focus on the wrong considerations around the Greek crisis Why do we feel the need to blame a country like Germany for becoming the most dominant economy in Europe despite losing its holistic global identity for decades after WW2 and having to recreate its financial institutions. Yet despite all this they persevered and have a strong export based economy. I often hear people say " the EU was great for the Germans as it benefited there economic model...but not so good for everyone else in the EU like the PIGS " Why? Why couldn't any other country have also adopted an export model that worked well in the EU. Its almost like we are blaming the Germans for having the diligence and work ethos to become efficient in the EU ? Greece wanted to join the EU, they weren't bribed (?) and didn't need much motivation and there is evidence that they did exaggerate there economic status to join. You can't expect the Germans to take responsibility for ensuring the Greeks were being honest about what they brought to the EU? You did note IMO exactly why Greece is in this mess where you said And Greece, in particular, has been especially profligate with this credit-- it used it to fund a huge, well-compensated, well-pensioned civil service, and to avoid serious efforts at tax enforcement. And nobody cared until the '08 financial crisis taught us that banks couldn't just hedge away all their default risks anymore" These are the fundamental causes, the other things you mentioned I'm sure contributed but they weren't as relevant as the mismanagement above Lets expect countries like Greece with such ancient history and knowledge to at least manage its own institutions properly. And the criticism about the initial large loans that Greece asked for and now has become the fault of the various institutions like the IMF, Germany and Euro Central Bank for lending them the money seems utterly bizarre. If Greece asked for these loans and was prepared to adopt the austerity that was expected why shouldn't the money have been given to them. Imagine how embarrassing for the Greeks and condescending it would have been if the Germans has said in the beginning of the loan cycle " no we don't believe you can pay us back, we won't give you the benefit of the doubt and just kick you out now " Come on guys countries really need to take responsibility for there own actions and decisions....and lets stop blaming the Germans for having one of the few very functional economies in the EU

Sounds about right

I believe there are conditions to use the Euro but the Dollar is the acceptable global currency due to its traction that any country can use if there own currency collapses, like Zim Yet Mugabe still attacks the USA for "imperialism and interference " ....the hypocrisy annoys me

Don't me wrong, I agree the Greece issue is primarily self-inflicted. But I still don't want them to leave the EU....they just need to stick to austerity Remember I live in Africa, I cannot just ignore countries that have decided on policies that hurt there economy and or mishandled there finances

I have seen some really informed people suggesting that Greece should leave the EU as people are tired of there intransigence and lack of compliance with austerity. But for me Greece leaving the EU would effectively crash there banking institutions and who would now lend them money? You can forget the IMF as they owe them billions..maybe the BRICS bank but Greece would be considered a high risk and dishonest in its payment strategy. So Greece leaving the EU could devastate there economy to a point where they may spend 15-20 years recovering from it. Its a huge deal and really needs to be avoided Nope, look at notorious bankrupt Argentina... or even at the frigging Iceland (even though it is smaller). Bankrupcy will not devastate their economy for 20 years, in fact, it actually might help them out in the long run. Sure first 1-2 years will be bad, BUT, their tourism will becoame more affordable and attractive to even more people, their new/old currency will help their export and bring the economic growth, probably in the 2nd year, and will drive their economy up. People will actually have to work, instead of sitting in various governmental parasite institutions, and thus in the long run their workforce might become more competitive. Bankruptcy is not the end of the world for a country. Sure, you will always be viewed on the market a bit higher risk, and pay extra %s on your future bonds, but that's basically it. You just need to be smart about it. (I do not really have time to get all the data about Argentina and verify every bit of it, but they surely turned around their last bankruptcy into an overall better situation than it was before that) Was Argentina kicked out some economic union and forced to use there original currency? I am not talking about bankruptcy for Greece. I am talking about something much worse, They would return to the Drachma that would be worthless

I have seen some really informed people suggesting that Greece should leave the EU as people are tired of there intransigence and lack of compliance with austerity. But for me Greece leaving the EU would effectively crash there banking institutions and who would now lend them money? You can forget the IMF as they owe them billions..maybe the BRICS bank but Greece would be considered a high risk and dishonest in its payment strategy. So Greece leaving the EU could devastate there economy to a point where they may spend 15-20 years recovering from it. Its a huge deal and really needs to be avoided