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Agreement in Iran Nuclear talks


BruceVC

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http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/14/opinions/glaser-logan-iran-nuclear-deal-positive/index.html

 

Guys this is a big story, much more important than people may realize 

 

Anyway well done Kerry and all the other negotiators who spent months patiently getting to this point. I'll comment on this later but this outcome is much better than the suggested military option from some  :geek:

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iran-nuclear-deal-israel-to-try-to-hinder-agreement-in-u-s-congress-1.3151028

 

Netanyahu is upset, stating

 

"Iran will get a jackpot, a cash bonanza of hundreds of billions of dollars, which will enable it to continue to pursue its aggression and terror in the region and in the world."

Edited by Malcador

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iran-nuclear-deal-israel-to-try-to-hinder-agreement-in-u-s-congress-1.3151028

 

Netanyahu is upset, stating

 

"Iran will get a jackpot, a cash bonanza of hundreds of billions of dollars, which will enable it to continue to pursue its aggression and terror in the region and in the world."

 

Yeah, I saw that

 

But I'm not too concerned about what Netanyahu thinks. He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting. I say lets give the negotiations a chance....what do you guys think ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

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"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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"He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting."

 

Kiddin' right? His country has been fighting for its very existence every day since its creation.

 

\The biggest issue with this deal is that it relies on trusting the Iranian powers to be. That is why it is EPIC FAIL.

 

 

"The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down."

 

L0L

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

Yeah I agree. I have actually changed my mind about the best way to achieve stability in the ME. I use to believe that the best way to achieve this was through the traditional allies of the West, the Sunni states like Saudi Arabia and UAE but they have proven ....disappointing. Iran needs to be incorporated back into the global community

 

I know they support Assad and fund certain terrorist groups that have killed Western troops over the last 15 years but we need to see the big picture. Iran is not just a country of religious hardliners...there are moderates and those are the people we need to reach out to. Which the West has been doing obviously

 

Suddenly compared to ISIS and its brutal ideology Assad doesn't seem that bad ...now the enemy is ISIS

 

But we need to be aware that there are several factors that seek to destabilize the negotiations...like Israel and certain Republicans. So Obama must just stay the course

 

Also I hope this is the last time people dispute the notion that sanctions don't work ...clearly they do. They just take time :) 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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"He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting."

 

Kiddin' right? His country has been fighting for its very existence every day since its creation.

 

\The biggest issue with this deal is that it relies on trusting the Iranian powers to be. That is why it is EPIC FAIL.

 

 

"The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down."

 

L0L

Volo we need to stop seeing this whole Iran issue in black and white,,,there are grey areas 

 

What would you prefer ? For the USA to bomb Iran ...maybe send ground troops 

 

Israel would need the USA to effectively attack Iran ...and thats not going to happen

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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But I'm not too concerned about what Netanyahu thinks. He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting. I say lets give the negotiations a chance....what do you guys think ?

 

I agree 100% with you there. Netanyahu wouldn´t sacrifice his own troops, he would try to trick the US into doing it.

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

It´s not that difficult honstely. The gap between operating a power plant and being able to construct a bomb are huge. Not to mention they have been observed in the past and the new contract gives access to every sight, including secure military bases. I would be, and i am, more worried about Israle who clearly has nuclear bombs (illegaly) and no one does anything about it, despite their history of expansion with military means. Iran? Iran has not fought in an agressive war for hunderts of years, i´m not worried.

 

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

Yeah I agree. I have actually changed my mind about the best way to achieve stability in the ME. I use to believe that the best way to achieve this was through the traditional allies of the West, the Sunni states like Saudi Arabia and UAE but they have proven ....disappointing. Iran needs to be incorporated back into the global community

 

I know they support Assad and fund certain terrorist groups that have killed Western troops over the last 15 years but we need to see the big picture. Iran is not just a country of religious hardliners...there are moderates and those are the people we need to reach out to. Which the West has been doing obviously

 

Suddenly compared to ISIS and its brutal ideology Assad doesn't seem that bad ...now the enemy is ISIS

 

But we need to be aware that there are several factors that seek to destabilize the negotiations...like Israel and certain Republicans. So Obama must just stay the course

 

Also I hope this is the last time people dispute the notion that sanctions don't work ...clearly they do. They just take time :)

 

 

For who exactly is Assad a problem? Syra and it´s people are behind him or the war would have been lost. Turkey doesn´t like him, but Erdogan and Assad were friends until Erdogan backstabed him. Assad really blocked only the gas pipe the Saudis wanted to build (and the US backed) thus...war..that is a geopolitical war and nothing else. Assad is not the big evil in this world or some new Hitler :)

 

 

"He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting."

 

Kiddin' right? His country has been fighting for its very existence every day since its creation.

 

\The biggest issue with this deal is that it relies on trusting the Iranian powers to be. That is why it is EPIC FAIL.

 

 

"The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down."

 

L0L

Volo we need to stop seeing this whole Iran issue in black and white,,,there are grey areas 

 

What would you prefer ? For the USA to bomb Iran ...maybe send ground troops 

 

Israel would need the USA to effectively attack Iran ...and thats not going to happen

 

 

Never say never, there are always different sides. You can bet the military industry would love a war, thats billions of money for them. Netanjahu would love it, being the extremist he is and he clearly has a lot of leverage in the US, but thank god not as much as he thought, otherwise we might look at a different scenario.

 

Still. This agreement stinks, it´s very hypocritical when it comes to the sanctions that were imposed on Iran in the first place.

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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But I'm not too concerned about what Netanyahu thinks. He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting. I say lets give the negotiations a chance....what do you guys think ?

 

I agree 100% with you there. Netanyahu wouldn´t sacrifice his own troops, he would try to trick the US into doing it.

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

It´s not that difficult honstely. The gap between operating a power plant and being able to construct a bomb are huge. Not to mention they have been observed in the past and the new contract gives access to every sight, including secure military bases. I would be, and i am, more worried about Israle who clearly has nuclear bombs (illegaly) and no one does anything about it, despite their history of expansion with military means. Iran? Iran has not fought in an agressive war for hunderts of years, i´m not worried.

 

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

Yeah I agree. I have actually changed my mind about the best way to achieve stability in the ME. I use to believe that the best way to achieve this was through the traditional allies of the West, the Sunni states like Saudi Arabia and UAE but they have proven ....disappointing. Iran needs to be incorporated back into the global community

 

I know they support Assad and fund certain terrorist groups that have killed Western troops over the last 15 years but we need to see the big picture. Iran is not just a country of religious hardliners...there are moderates and those are the people we need to reach out to. Which the West has been doing obviously

 

Suddenly compared to ISIS and its brutal ideology Assad doesn't seem that bad ...now the enemy is ISIS

 

But we need to be aware that there are several factors that seek to destabilize the negotiations...like Israel and certain Republicans. So Obama must just stay the course

 

Also I hope this is the last time people dispute the notion that sanctions don't work ...clearly they do. They just take time :)

 

 

For who exactly is Assad a problem? Syra and it´s people are behind him or the war would have been lost. Turkey doesn´t like him, but Erdogan and Assad were friends until Erdogan backstabed him. Assad really blocked only the gas pipe the Saudis wanted to build (and the US backed) thus...war..that is a geopolitical war and nothing else. Assad is not the big evil in this world or some new Hitler :)

 

 

"He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting."

 

Kiddin' right? His country has been fighting for its very existence every day since its creation.

 

\The biggest issue with this deal is that it relies on trusting the Iranian powers to be. That is why it is EPIC FAIL.

 

 

"The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down."

 

L0L

Volo we need to stop seeing this whole Iran issue in black and white,,,there are grey areas 

 

What would you prefer ? For the USA to bomb Iran ...maybe send ground troops 

 

Israel would need the USA to effectively attack Iran ...and thats not going to happen

 

 

Never say never, there are always different sides. You can bet the military industry would love a war, thats billions of money for them. Netanjahu would love it, being the extremist he is and he clearly has a lot of leverage in the US, but thank god not as much as he thought, otherwise we might look at a different scenario.

 

Still. This agreement stinks, it´s very hypocritical when it comes to the sanctions that were imposed on Iran in the first place.

 

 

Assad is a brutal dictator who instead of making political changes that large numbers of his people wanted when the Arab Spring first swept through Syria he  resorted to use his army and security forces  to brutally crush the political dissension. I cannot understand why you would support him or think he has done nothing wrong ? I don't ever support any dictator who stays in power through military means

 

He is only still in power due to the support from Iran 

 

I believe Netanyahu sees this in ideological terms...he only cares for the Jewish state. I can't expect him to see the big picture and frankly that's his issue. The USA and others see the benefits of negotiating with Iran and thats all that matters 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Assad is a brutal dictator who instead of making political changes that large numbers of his people wanted when the Arab Spring first swept through Syria he  resorted to use his army and security forces  to brutally crush the political dissension. I cannot understand why you would support him or think he has done nothing wrong ? I don't ever support any dictator who stays in power through military means

 

He is only still in power due to the support from Iran 

 

I believe Netanyahu sees this in ideological terms...he only cares for the Jewish state. I can't expect him to see the big picture and frankly that's his issue. The USA and others see the benefits of negotiating with Iran and thats all that matters 

 

 

That is a simple issue of realpolitik - everything else would be worse from our perspective.  This is particularily true for Syria's regime who more or less is beset by rebels of various factions and almost all of them extremists no damn sight better. We, as "the West", just supported some of the rebels because Assad also has the support of Russia and annoying Putin is currently all the rage, which is at the end of the day just a really silly reason to do anything and doesn't help any.

 

A few years ago we thought removing Gaddafi was a good idea. Look what that has wrought, both for Libya, the EU and the people drowning in the mediterranean sea. Iraq is a mess. Egypt peacefully removed a dictator to elect Mursi (what a laugh) only to end up under the rule of the military after even more chaos and more protests.

 

Given all this, why would handing over Syria to religious extremists the revolutionaries be any better? It's this chaos that allowed ISIS to gain a foothold in the first place, and between them and Assad, oh, well, I don't know, I'd freaking take Assad any day. :)

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Assad is a brutal dictator who instead of making political changes that large numbers of his people wanted when the Arab Spring first swept through Syria he  resorted to use his army and security forces  to brutally crush the political dissension. I cannot understand why you would support him or think he has done nothing wrong ? I don't ever support any dictator who stays in power through military means

 

He is only still in power due to the support from Iran 

 

I believe Netanyahu sees this in ideological terms...he only cares for the Jewish state. I can't expect him to see the big picture and frankly that's his issue. The USA and others see the benefits of negotiating with Iran and thats all that matters 

 

 

That is a simple issue of realpolitik - everything else would be worse from our perspective.  This is particularily true for Syria's regime who more or less is beset by rebels of various factions and almost all of them extremists no damn sight better. We, as "the West", just supported some of the rebels because Assad also has the support of Russia and annoying Putin is currently all the rage, which is at the end of the day just a really silly reason to do anything and doesn't help any.

 

A few years ago we thought removing Gaddafi was a good idea. Look what that has wrought, both for Libya, the EU and the people drowning in the mediterranean sea. Iraq is a mess. Egypt peacefully removed a dictator to elect Mursi (what a laugh) only to end up under the rule of the military after even more chaos and more protests.

 

Given all this, why would handing over Syria to religious extremists the revolutionaries be any better? It's this chaos that allowed ISIS to gain a foothold in the first place, and between them and Assad, oh, well, I don't know, I'd freaking take Assad any day. :)

 

 

You raise some good points but I see it differently on some levels 

 

I support regime change if a leader is about to commit genocide or mass killings of his own citizens or the citizens of other countries . So for me the humanitarian precedent is what matters which is  why I still support the removal of Gaddafi and would have supported the removal of Assad but the West respected the Veto of the UNSC and actually didn't help the Syrian rebels in the beginning of the civil war. 

 

Ironically its the fact that Assad wasn't removed right in the beginning of the Syrian war that has led to creation of ISIS as the war has dragged on for years. Also millions of Syrians have become refugees and other countries have had to absorb them in refugee camps so the situation is really grim

 

And you right, we can never predict what the Free Syrian  army would have done once they came to power if the West had helped them in the beginning of the civil war. But remember ISIS didn't exist in those days and the Syrian Army  did seem to be moderates who wanted to align with the West..but that might just have been a facade ?

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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"I know they support Assad and fund certain terrorist groups that have killed Western troops over the last 15 years but we need to see the big picture. Iran is not just a country of religious hardliners...there are moderates and those are the people we need to reach out to. Which the West has been doing obviously"

 

The moderates in Iran have little to no power.

 

 

"Suddenly compared to ISIS and its brutal ideology Assad doesn't seem that bad ...now the enemy is ISIS"

 

L0L0L0L0L0L0LLIPOP

 

A man who rapes one woman is not 'that bad' when compared to a man who rapes many women. COME ON. Don't you see the illogic you are using. You are playing a numbers game. It is also clear on how flippant in the 'killed some western troops' comment. Those are human beings you are casually mocking (THE FEELZ).

 

Know what, forget the West. How about the Iranians the Iran gov't murders, rapes,  and does all sorts of nasty stuff to.

 

Every few years we see an 'uprising' of pro western/pro US supporters (usually students) and they are terrorized by the Iran gov't you are in love with. That's sick.

 

I don't negoiate with murderers and rapists. Why do you?

 

 

"Volo we need to stop seeing this whole Iran issue in black and white,,,there are grey areas"

 

It is black and white. The Iran gov't is evil. the Iran people are mostly good. Yet, this 'deal' helps the gov't NOT the people.

 

 

"What would you prefer ? For the USA to bomb Iran ...maybe send ground troops"
 

No. Only sopmeone as bloodthirsty as you think the only options are  give a nuke to psychos or  kill a bunch of innocents (which is what would happen in a ground war Or even a bomb war). Talk about looking at things in black and white.

 

 

"I believe Netanyahu sees this in ideological terms...he only cares for the Jewish state. I can't expect him to see the big picture and frankly that's his issue. The USA and others see the benefits of negotiating with Iran and thats all that matters "\

 

He cares about survival. Iran wants to destory Isreal.  It is the US and others who don't see the big picture btw.  The only group that wins from this deal is Iran. What does the US get from this? A 'promise' Iran won't make nukes? COME ON. Iran has already promised/claimed they aren't making nukes so what kind of negoiator gets the other side to agree to someone the other side already says is happening? One that doesn't have common sense.

 

Seriously, what does the US get out of this deal?

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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It´s not that difficult honstely. The gap between operating a power plant and being able to construct a bomb are huge. Not to mention they have been observed in the past and the new contract gives access to every sight, including secure military bases. I would be, and i am, more worried about Israle who clearly has nuclear bombs (illegaly) and no one does anything about it, despite their history of expansion with military means. Iran? Iran has not fought in an agressive war for hunderts of years, i´m not worried.

There is potential dual use stuff for weapons/ civilian use, but not that much and that is definitely going (plus they'd already got rid of most of their potential dual use stockpile). You can also reprocess spent fuel for plutonium, the only Iranian plant that can do that is being repurposed as part of the agreement.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power.

 

Not without reason. The previous Brazil-Turkey-Iran deal on nuclear fuel supply was scuppered as the position was that enrichment by Iran was/ should be prohibited- unreasonably so, since there is no legal provision for stripping a country of the right to enrich. Their position has changed, now, but it was the stated position at that time.

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"I know they support Assad and fund certain terrorist groups that have killed Western troops over the last 15 years but we need to see the big picture. Iran is not just a country of religious hardliners...there are moderates and those are the people we need to reach out to. Which the West has been doing obviously"

 

The moderates in Iran have little to no power.

 

 

"Suddenly compared to ISIS and its brutal ideology Assad doesn't seem that bad ...now the enemy is ISIS"

 

L0L0L0L0L0L0LLIPOP

 

A man who rapes one woman is not 'that bad' when compared to a man who rapes many women. COME ON. Don't you see the illogic you are using. You are playing a numbers game. It is also clear on how flippant in the 'killed some western troops' comment. Those are human beings you are casually mocking (THE FEELZ).

 

Know what, forget the West. How about the Iranians the Iran gov't murders, rapes,  and does all sorts of nasty stuff to.

 

Every few years we see an 'uprising' of pro western/pro US supporters (usually students) and they are terrorized by the Iran gov't you are in love with. That's sick.

 

I don't negoiate with murderers and rapists. Why do you?

 

 

"Volo we need to stop seeing this whole Iran issue in black and white,,,there are grey areas"

 

It is black and white. The Iran gov't is evil. the Iran people are mostly good. Yet, this 'deal' helps the gov't NOT the people.

 

 

"What would you prefer ? For the USA to bomb Iran ...maybe send ground troops"

 

No. Only sopmeone as bloodthirsty as you think the only options are  give a nuke to psychos or  kill a bunch of innocents (which is what would happen in a ground war Or even a bomb war). Talk about looking at things in black and white.

 

 

"I believe Netanyahu sees this in ideological terms...he only cares for the Jewish state. I can't expect him to see the big picture and frankly that's his issue. The USA and others see the benefits of negotiating with Iran and thats all that matters "\

 

He cares about survival. Iran wants to destory Isreal.  It is the US and others who don't see the big picture btw.  The only group that wins from this deal is Iran. What does the US get from this? A 'promise' Iran won't make nukes? COME ON. Iran has already promised/claimed they aren't making nukes so what kind of negoiator gets the other side to agree to someone the other side already says is happening? One that doesn't have common sense.

 

Seriously, what does the US get out of this deal?

Don't get me wrong I am not saying things may not go  wrong with these negotiations with Iran....maybe they are lying and will still try to enrich Uranium and get a bomb. I am just saying this is the best available option under the circumstances 
 
But I need to explain my point further as you are asking some pertinent questions. So first question is " what is the objective the West wants for the ME " ?
 
It wants stability end of the day and the USA wants to stop feeling it has to intervene in certain conflict areas, like having to go back to Iraq to deal with ISIS. If Iran got a nuclear weapon then the Sunnis states would feel they have to ...and then we would have a nuclear race in the ME. And to be honest no one wants that. So the USA has valid reasons to prevent Iran getting a nuclear bomb and its not just the concerns from Israel 
 
Israel is a friend of the West\USA but under Netanyahu they have made some unhelpful decisions. Iran would never use nuclear weapons against Israel as the retaliation from Israel would destroy there country...so there verbal attacks against Israel is just rhetoric. Iran is not suicidal
 
And then finally if the USA did decide to launch a military attack agaisnt Iran it would have to be done in a proper and committed invasion like Iraq. I don't mean necessarily boots on the ground but it would be  a major  and protracted air campaign. And without ground troops or you will achieve is to  destroy some sites. But think what the USA will lose ...Iran will then truly hate them and anti-American sentiment will just increase which will resonate through all spheres of Iranian influence in the ME . There is no appetite in the USA for this and its understandable
 
So you asked "what is the USA deal " 
 
The USA is aware of its responsibilities in the ME but it wants to resolve the Iran crisis without using the military option ..and I support that  
Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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But I'm not too concerned about what Netanyahu thinks. He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting. I say lets give the negotiations a chance....what do you guys think ?

 

I agree 100% with you there. Netanyahu wouldn´t sacrifice his own troops, he would try to trick the US into doing it.

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

It´s not that difficult honstely. The gap between operating a power plant and being able to construct a bomb are huge. Not to mention they have been observed in the past and the new contract gives access to every sight, including secure military bases. I would be, and i am, more worried about Israle who clearly has nuclear bombs (illegaly) and no one does anything about it, despite their history of expansion with military means. Iran? Iran has not fought in an agressive war for hunderts of years, i´m not worried.

 

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

Yeah I agree. I have actually changed my mind about the best way to achieve stability in the ME. I use to believe that the best way to achieve this was through the traditional allies of the West, the Sunni states like Saudi Arabia and UAE but they have proven ....disappointing. Iran needs to be incorporated back into the global community

 

I know they support Assad and fund certain terrorist groups that have killed Western troops over the last 15 years but we need to see the big picture. Iran is not just a country of religious hardliners...there are moderates and those are the people we need to reach out to. Which the West has been doing obviously

 

Suddenly compared to ISIS and its brutal ideology Assad doesn't seem that bad ...now the enemy is ISIS

 

But we need to be aware that there are several factors that seek to destabilize the negotiations...like Israel and certain Republicans. So Obama must just stay the course

 

Also I hope this is the last time people dispute the notion that sanctions don't work ...clearly they do. They just take time :)

 

 

For who exactly is Assad a problem? Syra and it´s people are behind him or the war would have been lost. Turkey doesn´t like him, but Erdogan and Assad were friends until Erdogan backstabed him. Assad really blocked only the gas pipe the Saudis wanted to build (and the US backed) thus...war..that is a geopolitical war and nothing else. Assad is not the big evil in this world or some new Hitler :)

 

 

"He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting."

 

Kiddin' right? His country has been fighting for its very existence every day since its creation.

 

\The biggest issue with this deal is that it relies on trusting the Iranian powers to be. That is why it is EPIC FAIL.

 

 

"The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down."

 

L0L

Volo we need to stop seeing this whole Iran issue in black and white,,,there are grey areas 

 

What would you prefer ? For the USA to bomb Iran ...maybe send ground troops 

 

Israel would need the USA to effectively attack Iran ...and thats not going to happen

 

 

Never say never, there are always different sides. You can bet the military industry would love a war, thats billions of money for them. Netanjahu would love it, being the extremist he is and he clearly has a lot of leverage in the US, but thank god not as much as he thought, otherwise we might look at a different scenario.

 

Still. This agreement stinks, it´s very hypocritical when it comes to the sanctions that were imposed on Iran in the first place.

 

 

Assad is a brutal dictator who instead of making political changes that large numbers of his people wanted when the Arab Spring first swept through Syria he  resorted to use his army and security forces  to brutally crush the political dissension. I cannot understand why you would support him or think he has done nothing wrong ? I don't ever support any dictator who stays in power through military means

 

He is only still in power due to the support from Iran 

 

I believe Netanyahu sees this in ideological terms...he only cares for the Jewish state. I can't expect him to see the big picture and frankly that's his issue. The USA and others see the benefits of negotiating with Iran and thats all that matters 

 

 

According to whom? The Assad dynasty has ruled over Syria for some time now...and Syria was a beautiful, ****ING beautiful place :) If he would have been that dictator that you say he is..how is he still in power? Even after years of war in his country? Don´t you see that this doesn´t make any ****ing sense? Logic my friend. If logic doesn´t match up with the view you get, look for more information. I´m not supporting anyone, but i support that any foreign nation has to stick their nose out of a regional problem (which again is a geo-war and the since the start the US has their dirty fingers in this country)

 

Assad is as much as a dictator as anyone else in that sphere. This is just perfect Hussein/Gadaffi propaganda again isn´t it? ;) THe funny thing is, after so much years of war, he even made a sloppy election, but you would say it was rigged anyway :) No, i´m very glad Assad is there. If it wouldn´t be for him Syria would be overrrun by ISIL, with havy (and open= support from the Saudis and Israel and the US. :) No thanks.

 

In the end it doesn´t matter, see i don´t know Assad personaly, nor do you, but he has stayed with his people, got elected again DURING the war (this was even reported on our pro western media...and yes..shock they have elections!!!!!!!!) and has done more for his country than any Obama, btw Syrias history is very interesting. Read it up ;) Assad is no evil. Unless you are sheep who believes the US version, in that case i would suggest you read up what the US does all the time to other countries ;)

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

But I'm not too concerned about what Netanyahu thinks. He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting. I say lets give the negotiations a chance....what do you guys think ?

 

I agree 100% with you there. Netanyahu wouldn´t sacrifice his own troops, he would try to trick the US into doing it.

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

It´s not that difficult honstely. The gap between operating a power plant and being able to construct a bomb are huge. Not to mention they have been observed in the past and the new contract gives access to every sight, including secure military bases. I would be, and i am, more worried about Israle who clearly has nuclear bombs (illegaly) and no one does anything about it, despite their history of expansion with military means. Iran? Iran has not fought in an agressive war for hunderts of years, i´m not worried.

 

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

Yeah I agree. I have actually changed my mind about the best way to achieve stability in the ME. I use to believe that the best way to achieve this was through the traditional allies of the West, the Sunni states like Saudi Arabia and UAE but they have proven ....disappointing. Iran needs to be incorporated back into the global community

 

I know they support Assad and fund certain terrorist groups that have killed Western troops over the last 15 years but we need to see the big picture. Iran is not just a country of religious hardliners...there are moderates and those are the people we need to reach out to. Which the West has been doing obviously

 

Suddenly compared to ISIS and its brutal ideology Assad doesn't seem that bad ...now the enemy is ISIS

 

But we need to be aware that there are several factors that seek to destabilize the negotiations...like Israel and certain Republicans. So Obama must just stay the course

 

Also I hope this is the last time people dispute the notion that sanctions don't work ...clearly they do. They just take time :)

 

 

For who exactly is Assad a problem? Syra and it´s people are behind him or the war would have been lost. Turkey doesn´t like him, but Erdogan and Assad were friends until Erdogan backstabed him. Assad really blocked only the gas pipe the Saudis wanted to build (and the US backed) thus...war..that is a geopolitical war and nothing else. Assad is not the big evil in this world or some new Hitler :)

 

 

"He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting."

 

Kiddin' right? His country has been fighting for its very existence every day since its creation.

 

\The biggest issue with this deal is that it relies on trusting the Iranian powers to be. That is why it is EPIC FAIL.

 

 

"The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down."

 

L0L

Volo we need to stop seeing this whole Iran issue in black and white,,,there are grey areas 

 

What would you prefer ? For the USA to bomb Iran ...maybe send ground troops 

 

Israel would need the USA to effectively attack Iran ...and thats not going to happen

 

 

Never say never, there are always different sides. You can bet the military industry would love a war, thats billions of money for them. Netanjahu would love it, being the extremist he is and he clearly has a lot of leverage in the US, but thank god not as much as he thought, otherwise we might look at a different scenario.

 

Still. This agreement stinks, it´s very hypocritical when it comes to the sanctions that were imposed on Iran in the first place.

 

 

Assad is a brutal dictator who instead of making political changes that large numbers of his people wanted when the Arab Spring first swept through Syria he  resorted to use his army and security forces  to brutally crush the political dissension. I cannot understand why you would support him or think he has done nothing wrong ? I don't ever support any dictator who stays in power through military means

 

He is only still in power due to the support from Iran 

 

I believe Netanyahu sees this in ideological terms...he only cares for the Jewish state. I can't expect him to see the big picture and frankly that's his issue. The USA and others see the benefits of negotiating with Iran and thats all that matters 

 

 

According to whom? The Assad dynasty has ruled over Syria for some time now...and Syria was a beautiful, ****ING beautiful place :) If he would have been that dictator that you say he is..how is he still in power? Even after years of war in his country? Don´t you see that this doesn´t make any ****ing sense? Logic my friend. If logic doesn´t match up with the view you get, look for more information. I´m not supporting anyone, but i support that any foreign nation has to stick their nose out of a regional problem (which again is a geo-war and the since the start the US has their dirty fingers in this country)

 

Assad is as much as a dictator as anyone else in that sphere. This is just perfect Hussein/Gadaffi propaganda again isn´t it? ;) THe funny thing is, after so much years of war, he even made a sloppy election, but you would say it was rigged anyway :) No, i´m very glad Assad is there. If it wouldn´t be for him Syria would be overrrun by ISIL, with havy (and open= support from the Saudis and Israel and the US. :) No thanks.

 

In the end it doesn´t matter, see i don´t know Assad personaly, nor do you, but he has stayed with his people, got elected again DURING the war (this was even reported on our pro western media...and yes..shock they have elections!!!!!!!!) and has done more for his country than any Obama, btw Syrias history is very interesting. Read it up ;) Assad is no evil. Unless you are sheep who believes the US version, in that case i would suggest you read up what the US does all the time to other countries ;)

 

You see this is where you and I fundamentally disagree. I believe in the principle of a Democracy ....the Arab Spring was about the citizens of various countries wanting more representation and a better quality of life. Some countries made the transition, like Algeria and Tunisia, and some leaders refused to make any concessions like Libya and Syria 

 

I don't believe any country belongs to a family or one tribe...Assad should have made the political changes that was asked of him 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

But I'm not too concerned about what Netanyahu thinks. He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting. I say lets give the negotiations a chance....what do you guys think ?

 

I agree 100% with you there. Netanyahu wouldn´t sacrifice his own troops, he would try to trick the US into doing it.

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

It´s not that difficult honstely. The gap between operating a power plant and being able to construct a bomb are huge. Not to mention they have been observed in the past and the new contract gives access to every sight, including secure military bases. I would be, and i am, more worried about Israle who clearly has nuclear bombs (illegaly) and no one does anything about it, despite their history of expansion with military means. Iran? Iran has not fought in an agressive war for hunderts of years, i´m not worried.

 

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

Yeah I agree. I have actually changed my mind about the best way to achieve stability in the ME. I use to believe that the best way to achieve this was through the traditional allies of the West, the Sunni states like Saudi Arabia and UAE but they have proven ....disappointing. Iran needs to be incorporated back into the global community

 

I know they support Assad and fund certain terrorist groups that have killed Western troops over the last 15 years but we need to see the big picture. Iran is not just a country of religious hardliners...there are moderates and those are the people we need to reach out to. Which the West has been doing obviously

 

Suddenly compared to ISIS and its brutal ideology Assad doesn't seem that bad ...now the enemy is ISIS

 

But we need to be aware that there are several factors that seek to destabilize the negotiations...like Israel and certain Republicans. So Obama must just stay the course

 

Also I hope this is the last time people dispute the notion that sanctions don't work ...clearly they do. They just take time :)

 

 

For who exactly is Assad a problem? Syra and it´s people are behind him or the war would have been lost. Turkey doesn´t like him, but Erdogan and Assad were friends until Erdogan backstabed him. Assad really blocked only the gas pipe the Saudis wanted to build (and the US backed) thus...war..that is a geopolitical war and nothing else. Assad is not the big evil in this world or some new Hitler :)

 

 

"He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting."

 

Kiddin' right? His country has been fighting for its very existence every day since its creation.

 

\The biggest issue with this deal is that it relies on trusting the Iranian powers to be. That is why it is EPIC FAIL.

 

 

"The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down."

 

L0L

Volo we need to stop seeing this whole Iran issue in black and white,,,there are grey areas 

 

What would you prefer ? For the USA to bomb Iran ...maybe send ground troops 

 

Israel would need the USA to effectively attack Iran ...and thats not going to happen

 

 

Never say never, there are always different sides. You can bet the military industry would love a war, thats billions of money for them. Netanjahu would love it, being the extremist he is and he clearly has a lot of leverage in the US, but thank god not as much as he thought, otherwise we might look at a different scenario.

 

Still. This agreement stinks, it´s very hypocritical when it comes to the sanctions that were imposed on Iran in the first place.

 

 

Assad is a brutal dictator who instead of making political changes that large numbers of his people wanted when the Arab Spring first swept through Syria he  resorted to use his army and security forces  to brutally crush the political dissension. I cannot understand why you would support him or think he has done nothing wrong ? I don't ever support any dictator who stays in power through military means

 

He is only still in power due to the support from Iran 

 

I believe Netanyahu sees this in ideological terms...he only cares for the Jewish state. I can't expect him to see the big picture and frankly that's his issue. The USA and others see the benefits of negotiating with Iran and thats all that matters 

 

 

According to whom? The Assad dynasty has ruled over Syria for some time now...and Syria was a beautiful, ****ING beautiful place :) If he would have been that dictator that you say he is..how is he still in power? Even after years of war in his country? Don´t you see that this doesn´t make any ****ing sense? Logic my friend. If logic doesn´t match up with the view you get, look for more information. I´m not supporting anyone, but i support that any foreign nation has to stick their nose out of a regional problem (which again is a geo-war and the since the start the US has their dirty fingers in this country)

 

Assad is as much as a dictator as anyone else in that sphere. This is just perfect Hussein/Gadaffi propaganda again isn´t it? ;) THe funny thing is, after so much years of war, he even made a sloppy election, but you would say it was rigged anyway :) No, i´m very glad Assad is there. If it wouldn´t be for him Syria would be overrrun by ISIL, with havy (and open= support from the Saudis and Israel and the US. :) No thanks.

 

In the end it doesn´t matter, see i don´t know Assad personaly, nor do you, but he has stayed with his people, got elected again DURING the war (this was even reported on our pro western media...and yes..shock they have elections!!!!!!!!) and has done more for his country than any Obama, btw Syrias history is very interesting. Read it up ;) Assad is no evil. Unless you are sheep who believes the US version, in that case i would suggest you read up what the US does all the time to other countries ;)

 

You see this is where you and I fundamentally disagree. I believe in the principle of a Democracy ....the Arab Spring was about the citizens of various countries wanting more representation and a better quality of life. Some countries made the transition, like Algeria and Tunisia, and some leaders refused to make any concessions like Libya and Syria 

 

I don't believe any country belongs to a family or one tribe...Assad should have made the political changes that was asked of him 

 

If you believe in the principle of democracy you have no right to intervene in the business of any other country that includes Syria. Yet for the last 50+ years the US have meddled in the affairs in the middle east, the result is, that everything is in ruins. Or NOT?

 

Arab Spring, is considered Saudi/US driven. (it matters not).

 

The result:

 

Syria - "civil" war.

Libya - destroyed and hell

Yemen - hell in some parts WITH US support for Saudis bombing cities....scum

Tunesia - got away with a blue eye but suffers from human traffic

Iraq, Algeria, Jordan, even more problems. The rise of IS, so yeah.

 

The Arab spring was a lot of things, but none stood for or made democracy.

 

US intervention is the reason why IS exists in the first place.

 

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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But I'm not too concerned about what Netanyahu thinks. He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting. I say lets give the negotiations a chance....what do you guys think ?

 

I agree 100% with you there. Netanyahu wouldn´t sacrifice his own troops, he would try to trick the US into doing it.

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

It´s not that difficult honstely. The gap between operating a power plant and being able to construct a bomb are huge. Not to mention they have been observed in the past and the new contract gives access to every sight, including secure military bases. I would be, and i am, more worried about Israle who clearly has nuclear bombs (illegaly) and no one does anything about it, despite their history of expansion with military means. Iran? Iran has not fought in an agressive war for hunderts of years, i´m not worried.

 

 

 

 

"He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting."

 

Kiddin' right? His country has been fighting for its very existence every day since its creation.

 

\The biggest issue with this deal is that it relies on trusting the Iranian powers to be. That is why it is EPIC FAIL.

 

 

"The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down."

 

L0L

Volo we need to stop seeing this whole Iran issue in black and white,,,there are grey areas 

 

What would you prefer ? For the USA to bomb Iran ...maybe send ground troops 

 

Israel would need the USA to effectively attack Iran ...and thats not going to happen

 

Never say never, there are always different sides. You can bet the military industry would love a war, thats billions of money for them. Netanjahu would love it, being the extremist he is and he clearly has a lot of leverage in the US, but thank god not as much as he thought, otherwise we might look at a different scenario.

 

Still. This agreement stinks, it´s very hypocritical when it comes to the sanctions that were imposed on Iran in the first place.

 

 

Assad is a brutal dictator who instead of making political changes that large numbers of his people wanted when the Arab Spring first swept through Syria he  resorted to use his army and security forces  to brutally crush the political dissension. I cannot understand why you would support him or think he has done nothing wrong ? I don't ever support any dictator who stays in power through military means

 

He is only still in power due to the support from Iran 

 

I believe Netanyahu sees this in ideological terms...he only cares for the Jewish state. I can't expect him to see the big picture and frankly that's his issue. The USA and others see the benefits of negotiating with Iran and thats all that matters 

 

 

According to whom? The Assad dynasty has ruled over Syria for some time now...and Syria was a beautiful, ****ING beautiful place :) If he would have been that dictator that you say he is..how is he still in power? Even after years of war in his country? Don´t you see that this doesn´t make any ****ing sense? Logic my friend. If logic doesn´t match up with the view you get, look for more information. I´m not supporting anyone, but i support that any foreign nation has to stick their nose out of a regional problem (which again is a geo-war and the since the start the US has their dirty fingers in this country)

 

Assad is as much as a dictator as anyone else in that sphere. This is just perfect Hussein/Gadaffi propaganda again isn´t it? ;) THe funny thing is, after so much years of war, he even made a sloppy election, but you would say it was rigged anyway :) No, i´m very glad Assad is there. If it wouldn´t be for him Syria would be overrrun by ISIL, with havy (and open= support from the Saudis and Israel and the US. :) No thanks.

 

In the end it doesn´t matter, see i don´t know Assad personaly, nor do you, but he has stayed with his people, got elected again DURING the war (this was even reported on our pro western media...and yes..shock they have elections!!!!!!!!) and has done more for his country than any Obama, btw Syrias history is very interesting. Read it up ;) Assad is no evil. Unless you are sheep who believes the US version, in that case i would suggest you read up what the US does all the time to other countries ;)

 

You see this is where you and I fundamentally disagree. I believe in the principle of a Democracy ....the Arab Spring was about the citizens of various countries wanting more representation and a better quality of life. Some countries made the transition, like Algeria and Tunisia, and some leaders refused to make any concessions like Libya and Syria 

 

I don't believe any country belongs to a family or one tribe...Assad should have made the political changes that was asked of him 

 

If you believe in the principle of democracy you have no right to intervene in the business of any other country that includes Syria. Yet for the last 50+ years the US have meddled in the affairs in the middle east, the result is, that everything is in ruins. Or NOT?

 

Arab Spring, is considered Saudi/US driven. (it matters not).

 

The result:

 

Syria - "civil" war.

Libya - destroyed and hell

Yemen - hell in some parts WITH US support for Saudis bombing cities....scum

Tunesia - got away with a blue eye but suffers from human traffic

Iraq, Algeria, Jordan, even more problems. The rise of IS, so yeah.

 

The Arab spring was a lot of things, but none stood for or made democracy.

 

US intervention is the reason why IS exists in the first place.

 

 

 Well yes the Arab Spring didn't have the desired positive outcome many citizens expected but this is to be expected considering the reality of governments in those countries, the historical precedent in some places  and ideological stance. Also the definition of a Democracy is different in the ME to  where  we live but the Arab Spring still had valid objectives and  that doesn't make the idea wrong, citizens of any country have the right to have equal  rights and representation..or at least access to economic opportunities 

 

You seem to  be justifying dictatorships as the norm just because they existed for years or decades in some ME countries  ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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But I'm not too concerned about what Netanyahu thinks. He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting. I say lets give the negotiations a chance....what do you guys think ?

 

I agree 100% with you there. Netanyahu wouldn´t sacrifice his own troops, he would try to trick the US into doing it.

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

It´s not that difficult honstely. The gap between operating a power plant and being able to construct a bomb are huge. Not to mention they have been observed in the past and the new contract gives access to every sight, including secure military bases. I would be, and i am, more worried about Israle who clearly has nuclear bombs (illegaly) and no one does anything about it, despite their history of expansion with military means. Iran? Iran has not fought in an agressive war for hunderts of years, i´m not worried.

 

 

 

 

"He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting."

 

Kiddin' right? His country has been fighting for its very existence every day since its creation.

 

\The biggest issue with this deal is that it relies on trusting the Iranian powers to be. That is why it is EPIC FAIL.

 

 

"The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down."

 

L0L

Volo we need to stop seeing this whole Iran issue in black and white,,,there are grey areas 

 

What would you prefer ? For the USA to bomb Iran ...maybe send ground troops 

 

Israel would need the USA to effectively attack Iran ...and thats not going to happen

 

Never say never, there are always different sides. You can bet the military industry would love a war, thats billions of money for them. Netanjahu would love it, being the extremist he is and he clearly has a lot of leverage in the US, but thank god not as much as he thought, otherwise we might look at a different scenario.

 

Still. This agreement stinks, it´s very hypocritical when it comes to the sanctions that were imposed on Iran in the first place.

 

 

Assad is a brutal dictator who instead of making political changes that large numbers of his people wanted when the Arab Spring first swept through Syria he  resorted to use his army and security forces  to brutally crush the political dissension. I cannot understand why you would support him or think he has done nothing wrong ? I don't ever support any dictator who stays in power through military means

 

He is only still in power due to the support from Iran 

 

I believe Netanyahu sees this in ideological terms...he only cares for the Jewish state. I can't expect him to see the big picture and frankly that's his issue. The USA and others see the benefits of negotiating with Iran and thats all that matters 

 

 

According to whom? The Assad dynasty has ruled over Syria for some time now...and Syria was a beautiful, ****ING beautiful place :) If he would have been that dictator that you say he is..how is he still in power? Even after years of war in his country? Don´t you see that this doesn´t make any ****ing sense? Logic my friend. If logic doesn´t match up with the view you get, look for more information. I´m not supporting anyone, but i support that any foreign nation has to stick their nose out of a regional problem (which again is a geo-war and the since the start the US has their dirty fingers in this country)

 

Assad is as much as a dictator as anyone else in that sphere. This is just perfect Hussein/Gadaffi propaganda again isn´t it? ;) THe funny thing is, after so much years of war, he even made a sloppy election, but you would say it was rigged anyway :) No, i´m very glad Assad is there. If it wouldn´t be for him Syria would be overrrun by ISIL, with havy (and open= support from the Saudis and Israel and the US. :) No thanks.

 

In the end it doesn´t matter, see i don´t know Assad personaly, nor do you, but he has stayed with his people, got elected again DURING the war (this was even reported on our pro western media...and yes..shock they have elections!!!!!!!!) and has done more for his country than any Obama, btw Syrias history is very interesting. Read it up ;) Assad is no evil. Unless you are sheep who believes the US version, in that case i would suggest you read up what the US does all the time to other countries ;)

 

You see this is where you and I fundamentally disagree. I believe in the principle of a Democracy ....the Arab Spring was about the citizens of various countries wanting more representation and a better quality of life. Some countries made the transition, like Algeria and Tunisia, and some leaders refused to make any concessions like Libya and Syria 

 

I don't believe any country belongs to a family or one tribe...Assad should have made the political changes that was asked of him 

 

If you believe in the principle of democracy you have no right to intervene in the business of any other country that includes Syria. Yet for the last 50+ years the US have meddled in the affairs in the middle east, the result is, that everything is in ruins. Or NOT?

 

Arab Spring, is considered Saudi/US driven. (it matters not).

 

The result:

 

Syria - "civil" war.

Libya - destroyed and hell

Yemen - hell in some parts WITH US support for Saudis bombing cities....scum

Tunesia - got away with a blue eye but suffers from human traffic

Iraq, Algeria, Jordan, even more problems. The rise of IS, so yeah.

 

The Arab spring was a lot of things, but none stood for or made democracy.

 

US intervention is the reason why IS exists in the first place.

 

 

 Well yes the Arab Spring didn't have the desired positive outcome many citizens expected but this is to be expected considering the reality of governments in those countries, the historical precedent in some places  and ideological stance. Also the definition of a Democracy is different in the ME to  where  we live but the Arab Spring still had valid objectives and  that doesn't make the idea wrong, citizens of any country have the right to have equal  rights and representation..or at least access to economic opportunities 

 

You seem to  be justifying dictatorships as the norm just because they existed for years or decades in some ME countries  ?

 

When have i justifyed a dictatorship? To me, consindering your comments on Syria, Russia, China, etc you don´t even know what a dictatorship is. You clearly don´t know. To bad we have no time machines, a month under Stalin would wake you up :)

 

Syria is a semi-Repubic with a long lasting ruler house. The people were mostly happy about it. It was a really nice place. Of course, there are always people who are NOT happy with it. :) But by that logic, lets take a look at Saudi-Arabia.....the number one favourtie of the US next to Israel, famous for its beheadings (they even beat IS don´t they?) a strong monarchy, no democracy and a military state. Israel? They have the biggest open world prison in Gaza and continue to steal land and kill eveyone in the way.

 

Now Syria, under the Assad house has been mostly peaceful in history, any chemical attacks have been debunked by the UN. SO? Where is the thread? Where is the dictator? Same with Iran. Iran has over hundreds of years never fought an aggressiv war, only reacted. (example Iran - Iraq). HUNDRETS OF YEARS. And anyone is really worried that THEY may build an A-bomb (which is a farce) while Israel, who only has war on it´s mind and practice it against neighbours and own citzens all the ****ing time gets a free ticked?

 

Seriously? Has never one read a history book or what.

 

Iran is no danger.

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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short term benefits to the iran deal is obvious. potential long term problems will be an issue for future administrations here and abroad.  isn't particular fair to those future folks, but such is life, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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short term benefits to the iran deal is obvious. potential long term problems will be an issue for future administrations here and abroad.  isn't particular fair to those future folks, but such is life, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

What are you worried about? That Republicans if they win the election next year will change the negotiations terms...or something else ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I'm not too concerned about what Netanyahu thinks. He has always wanted a military solution but its not his country that has to do the fighting. I say lets give the negotiations a chance....what do you guys think ?

 

I agree 100% with you there. Netanyahu wouldn´t sacrifice his own troops, he would try to trick the US into doing it.

 

The truth is that it is very hard to tell which parts of their nuclear program are civilian and which are not (if any). The international isolation of Iran only makes this worse. By securing this deal, we turn from a vicious circle of distrust towards a new beginning which will greatly empower a new generation of moderate Iranians, and indirectly Shia Iraqis and Lebanese, to renew their countries.

 

Let us remember that cultural isolation plays into the hands of those who would subjugate their own population. A more wealthy and educated Iranian society is going to be a much better stabilizing force in the region than an isolated Iran which we keep giving ammunition to tell their own population about the crimes of the "west". The instant this deal was sealed it gave a severe blow to the future of Iranian hard-liners, whose entire world view has been turned upside down.

 

They have been shouting for months that the US wants either war or for Iran to have no nuclear power. As the people of Tehran celebrate in the street, I'm sure they spend the evening in shameful contemplation at home.

 

It´s not that difficult honstely. The gap between operating a power plant and being able to construct a bomb are huge. Not to mention they have been observed in the past and the new contract gives access to every sight, including secure military bases. I would be, and i am, more worried about Israle who clearly has nuclear bombs (illegaly) and no one does anything about it, despite their history of expansion with military means. Iran? Iran has not fought in an agressive war for hunderts of years, i´m not worried.

 

 

You see this is where you and I fundamentally disagree. I believe in the principle of a Democracy ....the Arab Spring was about the citizens of various countries wanting more representation and a better quality of life. Some countries made the transition, like Algeria and Tunisia, and some leaders refused to make any concessions like Libya and Syria 

 

I don't believe any country belongs to a family or one tribe...Assad should have made the political changes that was asked of him 

 

If you believe in the principle of democracy you have no right to intervene in the business of any other country that includes Syria. Yet for the last 50+ years the US have meddled in the affairs in the middle east, the result is, that everything is in ruins. Or NOT?

 

Arab Spring, is considered Saudi/US driven. (it matters not).

 

The result:

 

Syria - "civil" war.

Libya - destroyed and hell

Yemen - hell in some parts WITH US support for Saudis bombing cities....scum

Tunesia - got away with a blue eye but suffers from human traffic

Iraq, Algeria, Jordan, even more problems. The rise of IS, so yeah.

 

The Arab spring was a lot of things, but none stood for or made democracy.

 

US intervention is the reason why IS exists in the first place.

 

 

 Well yes the Arab Spring didn't have the desired positive outcome many citizens expected but this is to be expected considering the reality of governments in those countries, the historical precedent in some places  and ideological stance. Also the definition of a Democracy is different in the ME to  where  we live but the Arab Spring still had valid objectives and  that doesn't make the idea wrong, citizens of any country have the right to have equal  rights and representation..or at least access to economic opportunities 

 

You seem to  be justifying dictatorships as the norm just because they existed for years or decades in some ME countries  ?

 

When have i justifyed a dictatorship? To me, consindering your comments on Syria, Russia, China, etc you don´t even know what a dictatorship is. You clearly don´t know. To bad we have no time machines, a month under Stalin would wake you up :)

 

Syria is a semi-Repubic with a long lasting ruler house. The people were mostly happy about it. It was a really nice place. Of course, there are always people who are NOT happy with it. :) But by that logic, lets take a look at Saudi-Arabia.....the number one favourtie of the US next to Israel, famous for its beheadings (they even beat IS don´t they?) a strong monarchy, no democracy and a military state. Israel? They have the biggest open world prison in Gaza and continue to steal land and kill eveyone in the way.

 

Now Syria, under the Assad house has been mostly peaceful in history, any chemical attacks have been debunked by the UN. SO? Where is the thread? Where is the dictator? Same with Iran. Iran has over hundreds of years never fought an aggressiv war, only reacted. (example Iran - Iraq). HUNDRETS OF YEARS. And anyone is really worried that THEY may build an A-bomb (which is a farce) while Israel, who only has war on it´s mind and practice it against neighbours and own citzens all the ****ing time gets a free ticked?

 

Seriously? Has never one read a history book or what.

 

Iran is no danger.

 

 

I have realized something about our debates. You and I sometimes completely misunderstand each other or make assumptions 

 

And thats fine, lets just ask to get clarity. You are misunderstanding something, the people who wanted political changes in places like Syria or Libya had valid reasons. Its doesn't matter how severe the dictatorships were so there is no point saying " well they weren't like Stalin ". The point is the citizens and tribes of those countries wanted political change ..lets not question that 

 

There was unrest in Saudi Arabia but the Saudi royal  family handled it completely differently. Instead of trying to crush the protests by using the military they dropped $100 million to address the protesters complaints

 

 http://persiangulffund.com/saudi-arabia-distributes-130-billion/

 

A very different way to deal with the Arab Spring so I have no patience or empathy with what happened in Libya and Syria because the situation could have been handled differently 

 

Also I travel to the ME for work and I have been to Saudi 4 times for projects. I don't agree with how they view certain SJ issues but they are an ally of the West and we need to respect that and not criticize too much. Change will come but we mustn't force it 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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