BruceVC

Don't know about especially profligate, their debt: GDP ratio didn't spike until 2008 and didn't significantly increase from that of their Euro accession so their borrowing was keeping pace with growth. It was retrospectively stupid, massively so, but it was a retrospective stupidity nearly everyone had over the equivalent period and which they were at least somewh,at encouraged towards by the same people who are complaining now about bailing them out. Fundamentally, few nations paid back debt in the early-mid 2000s as they should have, and wherever they were. And I guess I'd also chirp in again there should be an obligation on lenders to lend with some responsibility as well as for borrowers to borrow responsibly, and significant consequences if they don't. The tax enforcement thing is also a bit overstated, though obviously more is better for their situation. I was rather surprised myself but in 2009 Greece's black/ grey economy was almost exactly 20% (wikipedia says 25%, but their maths is simply wrong, herp derp) of GDP with well regulated and efficient Germany having 15% GDP grey/ black economy. There isn't that much room for improvement, certainly not as much as there is generally implied to be. Yeah I knew without absolute certainty that you would be one of the people blaming the Germans and basically suggesting that the EU is fundamentally flawed. At least you are consistent with the anti-Western diatribe . I know whenever a discussion about the state of a situation in the world exists, be it Ukraine, Serbia or Syria, its always the West fault hey Zora ?

You see for me this post has some accurate and inclusive points but it seems to focus on the wrong considerations around the Greek crisis Why do we feel the need to blame a country like Germany for becoming the most dominant economy in Europe despite losing its holistic global identity for decades after WW2 and having to recreate its financial institutions. Yet despite all this they persevered and have a strong export based economy. I often hear people say " the EU was great for the Germans as it benefited there economic model...but not so good for everyone else in the EU like the PIGS " Why? Why couldn't any other country have also adopted an export model that worked well in the EU. Its almost like we are blaming the Germans for having the diligence and work ethos to become efficient in the EU ? Greece wanted to join the EU, they weren't bribed (?) and didn't need much motivation and there is evidence that they did exaggerate there economic status to join. You can't expect the Germans to take responsibility for ensuring the Greeks were being honest about what they brought to the EU? You did note IMO exactly why Greece is in this mess where you said And Greece, in particular, has been especially profligate with this credit-- it used it to fund a huge, well-compensated, well-pensioned civil service, and to avoid serious efforts at tax enforcement. And nobody cared until the '08 financial crisis taught us that banks couldn't just hedge away all their default risks anymore" These are the fundamental causes, the other things you mentioned I'm sure contributed but they weren't as relevant as the mismanagement above Lets expect countries like Greece with such ancient history and knowledge to at least manage its own institutions properly. And the criticism about the initial large loans that Greece asked for and now has become the fault of the various institutions like the IMF, Germany and Euro Central Bank for lending them the money seems utterly bizarre. If Greece asked for these loans and was prepared to adopt the austerity that was expected why shouldn't the money have been given to them. Imagine how embarrassing for the Greeks and condescending it would have been if the Germans has said in the beginning of the loan cycle " no we don't believe you can pay us back, we won't give you the benefit of the doubt and just kick you out now " Come on guys countries really need to take responsibility for there own actions and decisions....and lets stop blaming the Germans for having one of the few very functional economies in the EU

Sounds about right

I believe there are conditions to use the Euro but the Dollar is the acceptable global currency due to its traction that any country can use if there own currency collapses, like Zim Yet Mugabe still attacks the USA for "imperialism and interference " ....the hypocrisy annoys me

Don't me wrong, I agree the Greece issue is primarily self-inflicted. But I still don't want them to leave the EU....they just need to stick to austerity Remember I live in Africa, I cannot just ignore countries that have decided on policies that hurt there economy and or mishandled there finances

I have seen some really informed people suggesting that Greece should leave the EU as people are tired of there intransigence and lack of compliance with austerity. But for me Greece leaving the EU would effectively crash there banking institutions and who would now lend them money? You can forget the IMF as they owe them billions..maybe the BRICS bank but Greece would be considered a high risk and dishonest in its payment strategy. So Greece leaving the EU could devastate there economy to a point where they may spend 15-20 years recovering from it. Its a huge deal and really needs to be avoided Nope, look at notorious bankrupt Argentina... or even at the frigging Iceland (even though it is smaller). Bankrupcy will not devastate their economy for 20 years, in fact, it actually might help them out in the long run. Sure first 1-2 years will be bad, BUT, their tourism will becoame more affordable and attractive to even more people, their new/old currency will help their export and bring the economic growth, probably in the 2nd year, and will drive their economy up. People will actually have to work, instead of sitting in various governmental parasite institutions, and thus in the long run their workforce might become more competitive. Bankruptcy is not the end of the world for a country. Sure, you will always be viewed on the market a bit higher risk, and pay extra %s on your future bonds, but that's basically it. You just need to be smart about it. (I do not really have time to get all the data about Argentina and verify every bit of it, but they surely turned around their last bankruptcy into an overall better situation than it was before that) Was Argentina kicked out some economic union and forced to use there original currency? I am not talking about bankruptcy for Greece. I am talking about something much worse, They would return to the Drachma that would be worthless

I have seen some really informed people suggesting that Greece should leave the EU as people are tired of there intransigence and lack of compliance with austerity. But for me Greece leaving the EU would effectively crash there banking institutions and who would now lend them money? You can forget the IMF as they owe them billions..maybe the BRICS bank but Greece would be considered a high risk and dishonest in its payment strategy. So Greece leaving the EU could devastate there economy to a point where they may spend 15-20 years recovering from it. Its a huge deal and really needs to be avoided

Volo are you sure you played the English version of W3? You probably played the Polish version and didn't understand the dialogue and that's why you didn't enjoy it?

This is an interesting and relevant topic but you are misunderstanding a few things or it may be you are ignoring them because of your personal view of the EU and austerity When the various countries in the EU were instructed to undergo austerity the conditions varied from country to country but there were certain expectations that these countries had to comply with. Some may say " but who decides austerity ". An economic powerhouse like Germany with input from other countries like France was perfectly suitable to put pressure on these wayward countries but the intention as you know was never to punish these countries, it was to address the extreme economic pressure that was self-inflicted The expected austerity cuts were things like reduce government spending , more efficient tax generation, a rise in pension age, reduce government pay and other similar prudent steps. None of these should seem anathema but reasonable considering the circumstances The Greeks have been the worst to adopt this austerity and have ostensibly failed to meet several expectations that they agreed to. I can understand austerity is hard for you Europeans but the reality is it needed to be done Concerning this badly timed referendum I am of the opinion that there are people in SYRIZA that genuinely believe Greece would be better off outside the EU so they probably asked for this bizarre referendum in order to sabotage the negotiations and get Greece kicked out the EU. And lets not kid ourselves the patience of the EU for the Greeks attempts to sometimes obfuscate the austerity objectives have almost run out The Greeks in the latest austerity measures were told to improve tax collection and change the retirement age. Both of these were apparently red line items for SYRIZA that they wouldn't compromise on but now they are prepared to and this is good news SYRIZA is a populist party that came to power on the promise to end austerity. This was a completely unrealistic expectation and as we have seen cannot be implemented without Greece being kicked out the EU. I have to be honest I am surprised the Greeks voted them in on this specious election commitment, I would expect certain African countries to believe this type of rhetoric as they are less informed about the reality of economics than the Europeans If Greece does vote NO then this would be the real start of them leaving the EU....and this would be economic hell for them and I doubt will happen. So I'm sure they will vote Yes and recommit to the necessary austerity So need to worry about contagion....Greece will stay in the EU

citation needed

I voted but you cannot expect people not to whine as they are different games so the comparison is unfair

Sure I'll respect your wishes but anyone actually bothering to read this will see you were disingenuous..." I want an apology " ....seriously ? Why don't we rather go skipping through the fields ..hand in hand

Haven't been for a while, but I enjoy the off-strip casinos as much as the wretched-excess monuments. The ones with gold lightbulb marquees and buffets for retired people. Next time I go, I'd like to catch a Supercross race, or bomb Natties with rednecks at the Speedway. No I wouldn't. Yes I would. The dirtbikes anyway. Monster Energy girls carry signs on the track that say "30 Seconds to Go" which somehow seems familiar and shameful at the same time. Why do you guys leave out the strip clubs ? Are you embarrassed...please dont tell me you guys did nothing similar to that in Vegas

I am not taking credit for anything. I made a statement of fact, whether the initial accussation against Gamergate that your side made was absurd or not, the fact remains that the diversity of race and gender amongst Gamergate was proven by the #notyourshield campaign. The harassment accusation was disproven by analysis of Twitter. These are simply two facts, whatever you think of them is irrelevant, they disproved false accusations and were victories for Gamergate against those whom were mislabelling it. They are facts, part of the five I have provided, you have provided none, thus you are proven to not be interested in pursuing factual discourse. That is the end of the matter. Now apologise for calling me a liar and prove that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise again, you have spent five pages skirting this issue and proving that you are both dishonest and unable to answer any question posed to you. Give me a straight answer for once, stop avoiding the issue like a coward. Oh I never said you were pursing a false agenda..I said sometimes you use grandstanding and hyperbole I am going to wait for someone else who is trustworthy to comment on who is correct, you and I are too emotionally involved You did accuse me of pursuing a false agenda at the end of the last thread but one, and I am perfectly calm and not emotionally invested at all, if you wish to be a coward and run away from an argument that you are losing that is fine. I expected nothing else from you. Since you are now proven to be incapable of engaging in factual discourse, have still not apologised for calling me a liar nor provided any evidence that I pursue a false agenda or offered an apology for that, I am going to ignore you again. One cannot get any kind of answer out of you nor expect any kind of honesty so discussion is pointless. Please don't try and engage in dialogue with me again, thank you. Nonek you need to understand I do this for a living, as in RL Your intentions were so transparent, you had no real interest in debating with me. You were never debating in good faith...but I did enjoy this little chat

I am not taking credit for anything. I made a statement of fact, whether the initial accussation against Gamergate that your side made was absurd or not, the fact remains that the diversity of race and gender amongst Gamergate was proven by the #notyourshield campaign. The harassment accusation was disproven by analysis of Twitter. These are simply two facts, whatever you think of them is irrelevant, they disproved false accusations and were victories for Gamergate against those whom were mislabelling it. They are facts, part of the five I have provided, you have provided none, thus you are proven to not be interested in pursuing factual discourse. That is the end of the matter. Now apologise for calling me a liar and prove that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise again, you have spent five pages skirting this issue and proving that you are both dishonest and unable to answer any question posed to you. Give me a straight answer for once, stop avoiding the issue like a coward. Oh I never said you were pursing a false agenda..I said sometimes you use grandstanding and hyperbole I am going to wait for someone else who is trustworthy to comment on who is correct, you and I are too emotionally involved

Nonek ...no offense but I am not sure if you understand my question. If you don't mind I just want confirmation from someone else that points 4 & 5 are indeed examples of a GG victory...I just don't see it? I repeat Gamergaters were labelled en masse as misogynist and racist, this was disproven by the #Notyourshield campaign, thus Gamergate scored a victory against those whom were misrepresenting it. This is simple and undeniable. Gamergate was labelled a harassment campaign, this was disproven by independent Twitter analytics, thus once more Gamergate scored a victory against those whom were misrepresenting it. This is simple and undeniable. I have provided five factual statements, you have provided none, thus I dismiss your claim that you are interested in factual discussion. Oh I take back that I said you are a liar, that was wrong Not good enough, apologise and please provide evidence that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise for that as well. I know you think I'm avoiding answering you but I'm actually helping you .....to say " we proved that GG wasn't full of sexists " was obvious. I engage with most of you guys everyday, I know you aren't sexist or misogynistic. Anyone who suggested that the thousands of people who flocked to GG were all sexist is making an utterly absurd and unsubstantiated statement...many of them were indeed white,male gamers but that is fine and understandable Please stop trying to take credit for something that was obvious

Oh I take back that I said you are a liar, that was wrong

Nonek ...no offense but I am not sure if you understand my question. If you don't mind I just want confirmation from someone else that points 4 & 5 are indeed examples of a GG victory...I just don't see it?

Numerous publications have changed or implemented new ethics policies - Okay well if you consider this a victory, I never had an issue with this , individuals such as Ms Alexander, Mr Kuchera, Mr Chipman etcetera have been shown the door for their blatant contempt for the custome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Alexander_(journalist) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Kuchera They seem fine to me? the twelve gamers are dead articles are now being frantically back pedalled from and their message desperately denied by the indoctrinated Yeah this was silly but I said you guys misunderstood this , the ridiculous accusation that the men and women of Gamergate are all misogynists and racists is becoming laughable, No this isn't true I agree and all this when the media have been spinning a proven false dialogue that Gamergate is a harassment campaign. Once again this is not an absolute and also false. I agree So to be honest I only see point 1 as valid ? The last two are just silly generalizations that were unnecessary and you shouldn't have worried about 1. So this is one fact I have made. 2. They were both removed from their previous positions, another fact. 3. The articles were published and are now being backpedalled from, another fact. 4. So you agree, another fact. 5. You agree again, another fact. All five of my claims were true, all five of yours were false. You have lied five times now, produced no facts and conceded that I have five times. Now please provide evidence that I am a liar and pursuing a false agenda as you stated, or apologise and deny that you are interested in providing any facts. This is not about facts in the general sense ..this is suppose to be about examples of GG victory ? How can you see 4 & 5 as examples? You are not taking this debate seriously

Numerous publications have changed or implemented new ethics policies - Okay well if you consider this a victory, I never had an issue with this , individuals such as Ms Alexander, Mr Kuchera, Mr Chipman etcetera have been shown the door for their blatant contempt for the custome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Alexander_(journalist) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Kuchera They seem fine to me? the twelve gamers are dead articles are now being frantically back pedalled from and their message desperately denied by the indoctrinated Yeah this was silly but I said you guys misunderstood this , the ridiculous accusation that the men and women of Gamergate are all misogynists and racists is becoming laughable, No this isn't true I agree and all this when the media have been spinning a proven false dialogue that Gamergate is a harassment campaign. Once again this is not an absolute and also false. I agree So to be honest I only see point 1 as valid ? The last two are just silly generalizations that were unnecessary and you shouldn't have worried about

I read this post and yet I still can't determine one example of " GG victory " . Once again Nonek drop the grandstanding and post some facts ? Anita and her kind are still active, certain websites still push SJ issues, companies like Bioware have embraced progressive change, E3 had all these token female developers and companies like Obsidian are concerned with the views of the LGBT community These are all " victories " to me...you see I post facts. Please do the same if you want to convince people of the GG victory I posted facts, you do not as I shall demonstrate: 1. Mr McIntosh's sock puppet is a laughing stock whose cause that games cause violence and sexism has been disproven. 2. Certain websites still pushing SJF issues does not invalidate the victories of Gamergate when those websites have had to implement ethics policies. 3. Bioware are doing what Origin did twenty plus years ago they have embraced regressive change. 4. E3 had less female representation this year than the last. 5. Obsidian are interested in making a profit, which has nothing to do with the struggle for ethics that Gamergate works for, their audience is their own business. Now please disprove the facts that I posted above, respond to my earlier question and prove that I am a liar and pursuing a false agenda as you stated, and for Gods sake read a dictionary and look up grandstanding, you are the one doing that not I. If you cannot do this and provide factual evidence then please stop responding to my posts, as I do not wish to hear the same condescending rhetoric repeated again and again. Nonek I was wondering when you were going to stop ignoring me...I admit I missed our chats and even the insults from you I am going to try very hard to answer your questions but sometimes I can't due to time restraints and the fact we were asked to not hijack the thread which was exactly why I didn't respond to you last time. So don't become too hangup when I can't respond, sometimes there are valid reasons. I need to research your points ....I would prefer not to but I will if you insist in the interests of proper forum etiquette ?

You funny, yes I would miss you You are very interesting person and you often misunderstood

What? Is this September 2014? This ride will never end. Seriously what is the end goal? There is something I must concede that I didn't want to develop. GG has created something meaningful..there is now a block of very connected and committed people who are opposed to SJ campaigns on different levels. It consists of mostly white, male gamers and they have some valid concerns and have a logical reason to exist I obviously won't judge my own race for making a misplaced stand so I am not opposed to them as much as people think Why does it need to have an end goal? It is pretty much born out of concern and a love for the industry and games, they want gaming to be better and not just SJ propaganda. If the SJ movement in gaming dies down then they the GG people will die down as well, or at least until the next outrage. They act as a consumers watch, which has banded together borne out of necessity since the journalists tend to be either on the side of publishers or ideologically inclined to causes not everyone shares. It will die down but I don't there will be a clear end. Ah finally a really relevant question...you ask " why does it have to have an end goal " Sorry to sound critical but I am going to be honest. I respect you see GG as a consumers watch and you really believe in this but the whole movement just seems nebulous around tangible objectives. Real objectives makes it easier to convince people about your narrative...and you do have valid concerns that could be positioned better. So ask yourself what your real goals are that gives you purpose and direction. Us SJW have this, that is what makes our views unequivocal and easier to explain I mean imagine meeting someone at a bar and trying to explain what GG is about ? GG has had short term goals which they have termed operations, that link to the larger goal of ethics in game journalism and (disavowedly) fighting SJ menace. Orog you are reasonable person so do you see what I mean. I gave you time to think about it and thats all you could think of ? Don't you see the issue...it lacks real substance. Its like you saying " oh well our goal is to fight SJW when it suits us " ?

To say your example of a GG victory is " I'm a gamer, still alive, playing violent games with B00BIES. That is PURE GG VICTORY " just seems like a very low bar to set yourself? Think about it and post something more significant, I'm actually trying to help you

I read this post and yet I still can't determine one example of " GG victory " . Once again Nonek drop the grandstanding and post some facts ? Anita and her kind are still active, certain websites still push SJ issues, companies like Bioware have embraced progressive change, E3 had all these token female developers and companies like Obsidian are concerned with the views of the LGBT community These are all " victories " to me...you see I post facts. Please do the same if you want to convince people of the GG victory