FlintlockJazz

Does anyone know what exactly Might refers to? I know it increases damage and healing, but is it just meant to refer to the character's muscle mass, strength of soul or more abstract "the mightiness of your character" thing? Are we gonna get eye scanner things that can read the Might level of a character and lead to "It's over NINE THOUSAND!!!!" quotes? Enquiring mind must know!!!

Death to the Promancers! I jest. I'm not a great fan of romance, I find that I only liked the romances in BG2 the first time I played it because it was the few chances you got to interact with your party, getting pissed off when you had to choose because it meant losing interaction with other party members and finding the romance options to be lacking as it was. I'd have much prefered non-romance interaction at that level of development instead. Butchering Khalid and then making Jaheira warm for your ****les just seemed cheap and actually removed a lot of potential character development from them both, would have been more interesting to see a potentially more mature relationship play out there. But no, they wanted you to bone her instead.

Brute for either Rogue or Barbarian.

I'm not a big fan of having different material types in IE type games, especially pointless ones like is it bronze or steel. Limit it to the occasional silver weapon whose advantage is that it can hurt specific monsters or using mithril as an excuse to have lighter armour and that's it. Just my humble opinion, save the special materials for when enchanting stuff.

Sullivan's cuter. The other one looks like a cosplayer wannabe warrior who wants to impress sugar daddy by dressing up like a **** in the hopes it will get attention that she desperately craves and is designed to titillate men, which is really my main issue with chainmail bikini and boobplate: that it presumes that all I care is **** and spaffing one out, demeaning men in general. The muscle tone is better than some I've seen though (she actually has muscles). Sorry, had to get that out of my system. We return you to your regularly scheduled scrying.

I would like to apologise to people in the thread: my intent originally was to just point out that liking BG1 did not mean disliking how the loot was done in BG2, but I allowed Sarex to get to me and my subsequent posts became more aggressive in response to their's. It's not what I wanted to do, and it probably made the thread take an even worse direction than it was already taking, and it's not the side of me I like, and so I apologise and step back. Sarex, I think your definition of cRPG is wrong but I suspect you already know that and it will be waste of time to further debate this or the links you posted. If you thought I was attacking you with my first reply then I apologise as that was not my intent at that point.

I am trying very hard to stay polite, because I am positive that you can't be that limited of understanding. TrashMan said and I quote "I found BG1 to be almost right.". Now we know that BG1 and BG2 are polar opposite on the loot scale. If you need proof for this I have links with pictures and everything. So that means, and pay careful attention here because this is the important part, that he think that BG1 handled the loot a lot better. Also I only replied to other peoples strawmans, so I really don't see any attempts on my part. Please don't bull**** me, you are in no way trying to be polite, what with your constant attempts at trying to portray me as lacking understanding when I try to confront your false dichotomy. BG1 and BG2 are in no way polar opposites on the loot scale and you're the only one to have made that claim in your attempts to strawman. Diablo, Borderlands, and World of Warcraft would be polar opposites. Either you are completely ignorant and lack understanding yourself or you are deliberately trying to strawman because you are so invested in this, and I don't believe you are ignorant (you can take that as a compliment) which leads me to conclude that it's sadly the latter, so there's really no point in arguing with you any more.

Sarex, stop with the strawmanning attempts please. The title of the thread is Common Pitfalls of cRPGs game to avoid, we are discussing what we consider to be common pitfalls RPGs often make, one of which happens to be that many games often have what people consider an overabundance of magical items. This does not mean that BG2 had too many magical items, you were the one who made the claim that others were saying that when they did not, but rather whether RPGs in general often do or not. Some people like having weapons that are more meaningful that they carry through the game without being forced to swap to a weapon or armour they don't like in order to satisfy some sense of 'item progression'. If you don't like that, if you prefer constant loot upgrades like in Borderlands, then fine, but don't resort to strawman or condescension (which considering the fact that it appears that it's you who doesn't actually understand the people you are arguing with due to your strawmanning it just makes you look like a **** to be honest). Now lets get back to the actual topic instead of going round in circles over this one point.

I'd say it'll actually be 3.) you'll hit cap doing some of the optional stuff. You won't max doing just the storyline but you won't need to scavenge for every last xp. I'm fine with this, means I can put some stuff off for other playthroughs and not feel like I am gimping myself, and the low level cap avoids power creep and avoids excessive leveling for what is supposed to be a series of games we are going to be carrying a character forward through. Better to keep the levels low rather than give us too many levels at the start and then have to top it. Hell, it's already higher than what was in BG1, that game only really took you to level 9-10 and that is with an expansion pack that increased it!

NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! *shakes fist furiously at sky* As someone of a colour (that's right, i'm Britlish) blind persuasion I have absolutely no idea how any of my characters look, so they probably all look horrible and garish. I completely misread that! I read it as "a person of colour who is blind" which made me think "Forget how your characters look, how the hell do you even manage to play the game??!" :D Lack of reading comprehension made your post seem downright epic!

She does get around a lot. Lepetitmac, run while you can and keep away from stairs!

Let me help you with that. If he likes BG1 loot variety, then he dislikes BG2 loot variety. Do you understand now? Throne of Bhaal is a high level expansion, no one went in to it below lvl 20. That is a problem you run in to when your enemies and you are that high of a level. They need weapons that can harm you and that means they need to be magical(or + weapons). I don't think that any of the IE games were ever in danger of being on a Diablo level loot wise, simply because there weren't any item sets and there wasn't any need to hunt down the items to complete said set. I agree I also didn't sell those items, or any of the items I forged, but that doesn't stop PoE from having loot variety. That's called a false dichotomy, 'if you're not with me you're against me'. Just because he likes BG1 does not mean he doesn't like BG2, he might prefer BG1 but still find BG2 fine. Do you want more help understanding that concept? Throne of Bhaal was a high level expansion but that was no reason for it to break with the loot paradigm of earlier games. Requiring all opponents to have magical weapons to hurt you is either an example of bad design at that level or that you should not have been facing trash mobs at epic level anyway, since there shouldn't be enough epic level characters running around to be mere mobs. So either ToB should not have given you such unbalancing powers as immunity to normal weapons or they should not have thrown trash mobs at you. Bad design, which happens at epic levels since it's so hard to do. And it's beside the point, the point was that many people DID complain about the overabundance of magical items and felt that detracted from the game, which is the point of the discussion here. Oh, and you are wrong about the minimum level of ToB by the way. If you started ToB with a new character you would enter it with a level 14 character, and even playing through SoA you could still get through it and start it quite low, level 18 being fairly common, so you didn't have to be level 20 to start it. Dragon Age Origins was no Diablo and yet it had a loot system that forced you to upgrade and removed choice still. Even the unique items were 'leveled' to your level when you found them, which meant that you had to then ditch the weapon eventually as it would be outmatched by the later weapons you found. This removed choice, as it meant you just used the weapons as you found them. The bonuses became meaningless as more powerful weapons had exponentially greater stats. Loot variety is good, no one is denying that, it's the abundance that is questioned, and the rate and power you get them. Constant gaining of phat loot or picking up unique items you use with characters for the length of the game. EDIT: Correction, it's 2 million xp you start with in Throne of Bhaal new game, which puts you at level 16 for fighters, monks, clerics and barbarians, level 15 for mages and sorcerers, and level 19 for thieves and bards, and paladins, rangers and druids start at level 14.

I think it is you who is obsessed. One of the great things about BG2 is that it had great variety in loot and you are the first person I heard complain about it, in fact what people complained about was the lack of good non-sword weapons, so in fact people want more variety. As for there being plenty of games that have limited loot, well those aren't IE games and they aren't what people singed up for. So why can't it have lots of loot and give you interesting stuff to do, and you can pick up a regular sword through out the whole game. I think you are in a minority here as far as loot goes. I can't see where TrashMan has complained about the variety of loot in BG2. He showed a preference to BG1, but didn't even mention BG2 at all. People have complained about too much loot in Throne of Bhaal though, its overabundance of 'trash' magical items has been criticised often before. What many of us don't want is for it to become a Diablo-esque loot whore game, wherein you find a magical weapon, use it for a bit, then drop it for the next weapon you find that has an extra +1, especially since those remove choice from the game since you need to keep grabbing the latest loot to keep competitive with the enemies, dropping a weapon that you may have liked and wanted to keep using because it no longer is of any use. Diablo games use the loot thing to create an addiction in the players, not to provide enjoyment, the 'need' to keep getting better loot, creating a false sense of progression. I think what the IE games worked best was giving unique magical items that had a sense of history and character, even if it was just an interesting paragraph of history in the description. I carried Lilarcor all through the game just because I got so attached to him, along with the Sword of Chaos which due to it's history felt personally important to my character.

My first thought upon seeing that picture was "Does he really want to be hit in the groin with a pollaxe?"

Yeah, I would have liked that approach myself, unfortunately as they billed this as the spiritual successor to the IE games there are many who would consider having classes as part of that. There are many things I have issues with regarding classes and levels, but I guess many others like their ease of use (or ease of abuse in some cases). Damn other people... Amen.

I agree with pretty much everything said so far. The weapons thing in particular, two-handed are often made slow to 'compensate' for their extra damage, but since you are already giving up a shield or extra weapon already then there should be no need (and two handers weren't slow anyway, not swords anyway). I'd also like to point out that weapon and shield shouldn't be gimped either like it seems to be in many games, and I do not like being made to specialise to one of those three anyway, prefer when you are more free to switch between those styles instead.

I have to agree with LadyCrimson, this I like alot for some reason I can't quite put my finger on. The look of it would be perfect for an adventurer. Simple but effective.

All you needed to say to make me die with ecstacy!

I like it, I'm not sure if you being serious but you have proposed some good ideas. For example Ruffie could end up trying to harm other members of the party if they also try to initiate some form of Romance with you...or something similar Yes! I forgot to mention that Ruffie will be an aggressive drunk, and will get drunk quite alot. When drunk she'll become aggressive to what she perceives as 'rivals', even if they are not doing anything, and will try to get them to leave the party as they are threats to her control over you, though most of her physical abuse will be directed at the player character still, quite often taking her frustrations with other characters out on the PC. She will spread false rumours as well to drive wedges between the party members, but doing what she wants only leads to her becoming even more controlling and abusive. She'll be all apologetic afterwards, but she'll still twist her apology to make it seem like it was your fault, "You should know not to upset me when I'm drunk," kind of thing.

Name: Ruffie Race: Elf Gender: Female Role: Brute Key Item: Boobs Appearance: Chainmail bikini wearing Morrigan lookalike Feel: Spouse Abuser This character will be romanceable, but as the romance progresses she will become more and more aggressive, eventually becoming abusive to the PC. The only way to 'win' the romance is to get the hell out of it as soon as you can, as she will not change, only pretend to in order to control you. Ruffie will eventually kill the PC by shoving them down the stairs if they don't end the romance, and even if they do she will come after them, even if removed from the party, particularly when drunk. Naturally I expect this to become the pre-emininent romance option, and many fans will try to justify her behaviour on forums.

Ah, Osprey. Most of the experts and people with an actual understanding of history I know will advise against reading Osprey for being factually incorrect, in any of their books. Osprey apparently doesn't care about historical accuracy in their history books, regardless of the culture, so I wouldn't take it as a Western thing there, as they get Western history laughably wrong too.

Dudes! Dudes! Come on now, let's all just...get along! Don't make me break out the man-hugs!

She ain't no virgin! No virgin would dress like that! I call shenanigans and accuse the dwarves, we all know she likes it short and round!

I can sctually see benefits to there not being too much class-specific dialogue. I mean, I'd get quite annoyed when people made assumptions about my character because of their class (which in those other games they often had no reason to know anyway). For instance, my 'rogue' might be more a scout or an assassin and not at all interested in thievery and never do anything to make people think he was a thief, never once committing a single theft, and so for him to be refered to as a thief would be annoying. Basing it on attributes and your previous actions is much better imho, and I prefered the PST method anyway. Do random people come up to you in the street and pub and refer to you by your job title? Well, apart from the cops and soldiers and other appropriate roles of course. "Ah, a receptionist, I've been waiting for one such as you..." EDIT: I mean, I've always prefered it when the attributes are done in a way that enables you to define the person you're playing as, and so being responded to by those things seems a much better way of doing things. A guy with higher might is going to look more like a brute than low might guy is regardless of the class!

And so the deal was struck. The three forumgoers were in accord that narration was indeed a good thing. However, even in the brightest of endeavours the darkest of hearts may lay wait. FlintlockJazz, watching from his cozy bridge, struck! He began by narrating the agreement of the three previous posters, then about how he would strike and then he started narrating about how he narrated the narration and then narrated that too and that, and that, before bursting into terror that he was stuck in an infinite loop narrating his narration including how he was stuck in his narration before realising his escape was via the title of the next chapter which would then appear next. Chapter 3: The Forumgoers Forumate.