FlintlockJazz

Interresting, so it's kinda like the discovery of America technology-wise but with the 'colonies' already having been established for a few hundred years at least? Interesting set up, could be very interesting, especially if the original settlers came across in more primitive boats that you can discover like viking longships or canoes or something. Hope they don't try and ramrod in George Washingtons or other American Independence things though, not all of us are from America or even know about those things much. This, I like. I seriously hope he is approaching the game like a DM, as that is what I really liked about the old IE games and how they felt like they had been designed and written as if for a D&D module or somesuch, and why I am not so impressed with later games and their 'cinematic experience' wherein they seem to have replaced the DM with a Director. Completely tangential I know but had to say it.

But hunting down all those trash mobs that I mention later in that post was not fun, it was mind-numbing boredom while I picked a nose it was that easy, and completely unnecessary as I had already done the quest, and so a perfect example of why degenerate gameplay like that is bad. I also proposed how killing Taugosz could still be rewarded in an objective xp system quite well, you just gotta think of it like an achievement system, you don't need a quest for it but doing outstanding stuff can still be recognised and rewarded.

I know. I get the argument. The problem is that there's no difference between directly getting XP for your kills, and directly getting XP for kills because "killing things was the objective". It's literally the same thing. Any time there is combat, killing will be one of the objectives. So.... why did Tim Cain feel the need to tell us that the game will not reward you for your body count? Was he just trying to put a spin on things for marketing sake? Also, I didn't want to bring this up because it'd muddle the discussion, but since the issue won't go away.... Are you guys actually OK with a game filled with bounty-hunter and "clear this area" quests? Because if killing things is going to be an objective, then those are the type of quests that will litter the game. Otherwise, you cannot expect combat to net you XP, and that would take us right back to the beginning of this discussion: no XP for killing things, except on rare occasions when killing is a quest objective. And woe to those who do all 15 levels of the megadungeon and don't get any XP for killing all its monsters until the very end. Not all objectives will be quests, in fact I suspect a large number will be unrelated to quests such as the explore an area ones, you just get them as you achieve them.

I have just been playing Baldur's Gate tonight and I felt what happened tonight actually highlights the situation here nicely. I was doing the bandit camp, I had managed to blag my way in and got into the main tent without any fights until then. Once I had finished and accomplished my goal I could leave, without having another fight, but then that would mean missing out on the xp and loot from all the guys outside, including a particularly hard fight and highly rewarding one with the leader of the Blacktalons. Now, objective xp would have given me the same xp for blagging past as it would have fighting them, and I would not then be able to 'cheat' more xp by just slotting everyone on the way out like I did tonight, for which I had no reason to do other than to Highlander their xp (I think we should call kill xp 'Highlandering it' from now on), but it would also mean missing out on a tough fight with a bossman. Now, it could be argued that getting into a fight after trying so hard to avoid it would be a failure anyway, so getting it for a failure is backwards, plus while I don't get the xp I DO get the loot, which was rather nice armour by the way. Another approach would be to say that killing this guy should be an optional objective xp, that if he was truly challenging that he should give xp for overcoming his optional challenge. Now, this sounds like just kill xp, except that it would be limited to just him and that it would not necessarily require turning on the whole camp to get maximum xp. I am not saying that you can instead poison him (though that could be an interesting and possibly hard method as well), but rather getting him to fight you without also drawing the entire camp in on you as well, maybe by antagonising him in some way so that he challenged you to a duel instead and everyone else just looked on with amusement. This would then mean avoiding having to fight the rest of the camp by doing something clever, and possibly got you more respect in the camp which may have lead to other gains. The bit about not having to fight the rest of the camp is important I think: after I had done the two big battles in BG2 today I then spent 30 minutes just going around the camp killing people. This did not require any skill on my part, nor did it lead to anything entertaining, I was controlling the action with one hand while I absent mindedly mined my nostril with the other hand pulling out a rather huge bogey, seriously I was quite chuffed with it though it got awkward wiping it in the bin under the desk, all while grinding these trash mobs. I did not overcome anything, I don't think I even lost a hit point while doing it, and there was certainly no reason to do it besides highlandering it and collecting scalps. Hell, I would have just done it for the scalps, no need for a xp reward for essentially walking over someone. They were trash mobs, nothing more than a time sink, which isn't needed in a singleplayer game. My face rolling over the keyboard would've sufficed.

*Backhands poster* Bad poster! Bad first post! Bad! No cookies for you today!!!!

While it wasn't by my character's hand, I felt even worse about Cain in Diablo3. And it ticked me off even more because I felt like Cain was so iconic to series. Oddly, Wirt's peg leg in Diablo2 just made me giggle. Guess I didn't like him enough, the over-priced jerk. Oh, I giggled when I got Wirt's leg, I'm only human (yet) after all, though I did also feel sad that he died, despite all his scamming the little...

Aye agreed! Considering how big we all hope the game will be I am sure we'll end up with enough areas to check that going through them repeatedly on the off-chance that a quest pops up 'this time' will become tedious. I've been thinking about how to phrase exactly why I feel the way I do in the best way, and I think I have it. It's not that we want to 'complete everything', on the contrary I would say it's the exact opposite, it's to be able to do the things we like while avoiding the things we don't. Remember the first dungeon in Baldur's Gate 2, or Chateau Irenicus as it has come to be known as? There is a mod out there to skip it, because since it was the first thing you had to do every single playthrough people got so sick and tired of it that they just could not be bothered with it any more. The main storyline quests are the ones you will always have to do whenever you play the game if you want to 'finish' the game, and as a result for those of us who multiple playthroughs no matter how well written they are there comes a point where they become tedious. Being able to break up that tedium by doing side quests you enjoy or haven't tried yet helps to keep me going. So, having to do the main questline to get to my favourite quests would work against that, if I was instead limited to five side quests none of which interested me or that I had already done so many times then I would not be so interested. In fact, I would argue that quest staggering actually encourages completionists: since you only have access to them then you end up doing them, then quickly gobble up new quests when they come along, I prefer an All-You-Can-Eat buffet to a set dining course where they bring it out to you in order since then I can more happily leave things that I'm not so keen on. In Baldur's Gate 2 you could do completely different side quests in different playthroughs each time and still do more than the designers intended you to do each time. While in Athkatla you could actually feel like an adventurer, escaping the railroaded main questline to wander the land, actually seeking out quests and wandering from town to town as you pick up news of their needing help. The questlines around Trademeet were awesome, incredibly detailed and felt like a true D&D module and yet that enitre area was just completely optional and had nothing to do with the main questline, which I have to say actually seemed to work against the whole feeling of being an adventurer in its tone and insistence of dragging you away from just wandering the land. Hell, I'd argue you could get a perfectly great playthrough of just ignoring the main quest completely in Baldur's Gate 2 entirely and just adventuring across Athkatla, as you would get epic storylines, great dialogue, interesting stories and fascinating locales, enough that if you just ended it without ever returning to the main questline you could still feel like you had a full game. I would not mind some quests being designed for higher levels than I am, most here I am sure are not big fans of level scaling, but I can decide that when I see that the creatures are level 10 and I'm still only level 4, I don't need to be locked out of it. I could go away and come back, either by progressing the main storyline like intended or by taking loads of side quests (sure that may mean I am then over-leveled for the main quest line but if so I am probably on playthrough 2,704 and not particularly fussed). I am also sure there are others who will view taking on a level 10 quest as level 4s as a challenge, I am sure that there will be those who find some way to do it solo. Anyway, I've waffled on for long enough, time to get back to work before someone catches me!

*puts his ear up to the screen*... ... Ehh, I dunno. I can't really tell. Also, it did make sense, for what that's worth. No, none of it made sense and he should be ashamed of it, for he has shamed his parents, his children, his wife, his country, his whol- * FlintlockJazz has been killed by falling bridge * * Party gains 2xp *

Oh, conversation, that's another thing I like actually. Having to play a socialite because none of your companions can take it has always bugged me, and so I am glad they are doing it off attributes instead. It also means that having an option unlocked due to high attribute doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be a I-win option either: I personally never had a problem with an influence skill giving conversation options that may not always work or even had a worse effect (as I saw knowing when to use an ability and when NOT to use it as part of the challenge) but some felt (understandably) that if you invested points in it then it should always be beneficial, and so basing options off attributes that define your character but whose main purpose mechanically is to provide bonuses elsewhere so that their options not being beneficial might be better accepted by them. I mean, I can see how taking the Intellect option when talking to someone who has a problem with 'smarty-pants' might not be so good, sure you get to show off how you know stuff but they don't like that...

Does look interesting, thank you. The funding seems to have shot up while I have been studying, was about £10,000 when I first looked now it's almost 30k! Basic premise seems good but will examine it with my microscope to make sure they can actually achieve it. And monocle, must use monocle.

Well, to get the ball rolling I got to say I don't have much problem with most of the stuff that's been released. I like objective xp, gives a reason to not just slaughter everything to munch on their xp but doesn't penalise you for slaughtering everything if you want to (unlike other games like Deus Ex Human Revolution wherein not doing non-lethal takedowns meant you lost out on xp). It's a carte blanche to deal with the situation however you want, whether it be by taking your time to ninj your way in and out undetected or the simple approach of just slaughtering and smacking down your nemesis, leaving the results only to be the ingame reaction to your behaviour. The fact that there is going to be things like exploration xp as well just sounds awesome, means that xp is not just a murder-score for your murder-hobos but rather a reward for acting like an adventurer! Stealth I'm not so clear on, not had a chance to fully read it and a bit confused from what I have heard beyond the idea of detection circles to be honest, but I am happy they are looking into it in such detail since I honestly just expected them to do what Baldur's Gate did. It gives me hope that I may be able to play the party as the special ops squad I have envisioned real adventuring parties would operate as, rather like how Conan and co break into places in the first original Conan the Barbarian film (and why I have disliked the rogue's insistence of hoarding all the stealth options to himself and denying them to the others despite being an essential skill for all adventurers just as weapon skills are). I hope that my desire to play a party of adventurers who ninj their way through the dungeon, sneaking up on rooms, getting into position to take down their enemies quickly before casting silence on the room just as they enter so that no one outside hears as they kill the guards inside may one day come true!! Edit: And while I was typing all that, others beat me to it! Just ignore the first line regarding getting the ball rolling folks!

Just posting to say that I am still loving this thread and to keep it up. Regularly visit but rarely post I know, but you all got such good stuff on here!

My dear misguided Nonek, it's a common knowledge that green tea is superior in every way to the ovestated earl grey. And please, don't even start with it's being suitable for a refined gentleman - I heard that already and the fact I'm foreigner (thus supposedly accustomed to the bland tastes of green tea) doesn't make your unreasonable opinion any more valid Diclamer for those unfortunate enough (as I bet Nonek understood the joke): GO PLAY ARCANUM :D And I love earl grey. Coincidentally I'm sipping one at the very moment. Hmmm... I doubt he gets it, he is English and you NEVER joke about tea with them You Jonny Foreigners and your attempts to undermine the British by luring them away from the Proper Drink that is Tea! You know that the strength of the British comes from the increased Moral Fibre gained by drinking tea mixed with cow's milk and have attempted to lure patriotic citizens away with your pansy drinks, we all know the British Empire would never have fallen had so many of us not been lured by the foul elixirs such as coffee! Fortification of Moral Fibre by tea has been shown to increase combat effectiveness by 20% as you will all find out when the new British Space Empire (BSE) arises and the planet of Didcot is founded!!! The Tea Must Flow!!! You funny Funny?! I'm being completely serious man! On a completely unrelated side note, here's a pic of me in uniform.

No you can't handle it, that's why you should hand me all your copies of the game you get, your money too, your house, your game collection, your PC, your bank account, um, your furniture, er oo your kids too can always get a fair price on the Black Market for those, your immortal soul too you never know what you can get for that...

I still remember how horrified and sad I was when I saw that I had to fight Griswold in Diablo 2. That whole Tristram level was like having to kill everything that I liked about that game, as none of the new characters I met seemed to have as much personality as they did. Wirt, the witch, Cain, Ogden, Farnham, all seemed to have stories that felt cut short...

My dear misguided Nonek, it's a common knowledge that green tea is superior in every way to the ovestated earl grey. And please, don't even start with it's being suitable for a refined gentleman - I heard that already and the fact I'm foreigner (thus supposedly accustomed to the bland tastes of green tea) doesn't make your unreasonable opinion any more valid Diclamer for those unfortunate enough (as I bet Nonek understood the joke): GO PLAY ARCANUM :D And I love earl grey. Coincidentally I'm sipping one at the very moment. Hmmm... I doubt he gets it, he is English and you NEVER joke about tea with them You Jonny Foreigners and your attempts to undermine the British by luring them away from the Proper Drink that is Tea! You know that the strength of the British comes from the increased Moral Fibre gained by drinking tea mixed with cow's milk and have attempted to lure patriotic citizens away with your pansy drinks, we all know the British Empire would never have fallen had so many of us not been lured by the foul elixirs such as coffee! Fortification of Moral Fibre by tea has been shown to increase combat effectiveness by 20% as you will all find out when the new British Space Empire (BSE) arises and the planet of Didcot is founded!!! The Tea Must Flow!!!

He is making perfect sense. And I see it like he does. I want to be able to do any quest at any time given that I am currently able to access it's location. Not only when some unknown condition has been met at some unknown point in the game. Constantly having to recheck every area of the game in case a previous action unlocked some hidden content sounds grating, especially when you do a replay of the game and already know that "this" quest should be "here", but it isn't. Lol that's a new kind of neurosis. So because someone has a different style of playing to you it's a neurosis? We are discussing different styles of play here, I understand and respect that your playstyle is different to mine, so let's keep it civil please.

You asked who cares, I answered that I do. Being able to choose which side quests I wanted to do was pretty much the main thing that gave Baldur's Gate 2 any kind of player agency at all, the choice of which side quests to do and in which order. The problem with the Spellhold and Underdark sections is that you couldn't just leave them when you felt bored with them and go do some other quest for a while, forcing you to do the side quests before or after those sections. Whenever I play through BG2 the Underdark and Spellhold sections are usually the points that I tend to lose interest in, since they are long and have no opportunities for me to bugger off and finish off some of those other quests I have lounging in my quest log instead or to try leveling up in. The Athkatla sections are awesome because I can spend forever ignoring the main quest line if I want just being an adventurer! He is making perfect sense. And I see it like he does. I want to be able to do any quest at any time given that I am currently able to access it's location. Not only when some unknown condition has been met at some unknown point in the game. Constantly having to recheck every area of the game in case a previous action unlocked some hidden content sounds grating, especially when you do a replay of the game and already know that "this" quest should be "here", but it isn't. Exactly, thanks. Things unlocking due to the progression through the main quest sounds too much like a JRPG to me, not that they are bad mind you just not what I expect from Baldur's Gate inspired game.

Because I might want to do one quest but not another? That I want to do a specific quest but not interested in doing the main questline at that moment? Because I don't want the world to feel like it revolves around the main storyline? Player agency? Who cares? I care.

I'd disagree, I don't like being locked out of a quest just because I'm not in the right chapter, being made to do the main storyline just to get them unlocked. I liked the fact that you had pretty much the whole world open to you the moment you stepped out of the first dungeon, made it feel like an open world sandbox but with well written and detailed side quests around that each felt like their own epic storyline, with some of the side storylines actually spanning multiple quests and locations. The main problem with the rest of the BG2 after chapter 2 (until chapter 4) is that you couldn't stop partway along them and go back to Athkatla mid-way through Spellhold or the Underdark (and having side quests in those areas would have just dragged them out even further as you were forced to do them before moving on since you couldn't come back to them, and they do drag as it is). TL;DR version: The problem was that Spellhold and Underdark locked you out of the side quests in Athkatla that were already there so you couldn't do them at the same time.

I'm not keen on the 'stagger by main quest progression' method myself to be honest. Spread them around more instead, and have the player able to find out about 'troubles' in other towns or whatever via the rumours in bars, making the 'buy everyone a drink to hear rumours' thing you had in Baldur's Gate actually useful. So those who want to immerse themselves in the side quests can do it while those who just want to do the main quest can do so. Have new quests show in previously cleared locations when other questlines in other areas are done, discoverable again via drinking at the bar.

Hey, has this forum been holding out on me? Damn people, share some of that **** around and pass me the fairy dust and a Orlan girl to snort it off of!

I now wonder if there is indeed a portal to the 2817th plane of the Abyss. And whether the Vorpal Hammer she mentions is there, seems too specific in it's name ot be made up... EDIT: Just realised, with the way the planes work her saying stuff like that could actually make them real anyway, so let's believe her and go get them!!! :D

I loved Minsc but couldn't stand HK-47 (but then I never got into KotOR in general) so I can see things from both sides. Really, the thing with Minsc is that you rarely got anything more than the one-liners in Baldur's Gate 1 and in Baldur's Gate 2 most of the interaction was via banter so it worked there as the player kinda filled in the blanks, but in a game with a lot more dialogue and interaction then it may not work so well.

Swooshbuckler? Swooshbuckler??! SWOOSH??! It's alright I guess...