Monte Carlo

I just re-read this. If we don't agree with your notion of Infinity Engine purity then we 'despise' the game system. Wow.

You're. Not. listening. IE was D&D. This is not D&D. Do you get it?

Hi Was reading Sawyer's interview on XP4T and liked this bit: ---- Souls appear to be central to this game --- to the magic, abilities, theme, politics... everything. It's a bit difficult to take the conversation forward on the forums, though, without any steer about what you're thinking about it. So, a very humble request, are you in a position to share a bit more? Thanks MC

@ Metiman... the elephant in the room here is Dungeons and Dragons. It's as much of a burden as it is a blessing. Take Vancian magic. It's a D&D mechanic. The designers are now unshackled from it. From my POV the whole cool-down thing is a non-issue because I simply don't see Obsidian creating a mana-burning Diablo / ARPG type mechanic for magic. They've reiterated that what they will give us will be demonstrably similar to what went before. All of us will see things that delight us, as much as we are likely to see stuff that is carved from a block of meh. Or even annoys us. If you can't live with that then don't back the project. The only thing I don't want, for example, are romances and po-faced PC tropes. That doesn't mean that I want the game to be sexist, it just means that I find cultural Marxists... boring. But some of that might wend it's way in. I'll suck it up and ignore it. Seriously, it's that simple. And if it isn't, do what the anti-firearms fundie did and just go. Cheers MC

Having thought about it for long enough not to activate flood control, I think this thread should stay open. It keeps all the crazy people contained in one thread where they can bounce around happily and stay away from other threads.

Yes, this thread is beginning to develop it's own unreality field, like a CERN run by chimps. Perhaps it will drag the entire forum into some planar loop where people's brains bleed out of their ears when they see a woman wearing armour that either (a) reveals or (b) conceals her body. Charlton Heston will then ride up a beach and see an ancient, rusting Statue of Liberty... wearing boob armour.

I wish anybody setting foot into the arena the best of luck. I might pitch in towards the end of their KS... after all some Jagged Alliance 2 designers are on it. And a fantasy version of JA2 would be pretty awesome.

His happiness gives me a warm fuzzy. Can he just take it somewhere else?

Tragic, but what does this have to do with this discussion? We could play yo momma all day on this. The fact remains that the guy went on a hissy fit based on... what? He's bitching about the lack of TB combat. Seriously? The game, from day ONE, was meant to be inspired by IE style RTwP I know that Codexians want Fallout and that they've been grinding their teeth about it for fifteen years. I know that they are too-cool-for-skool. I know that they think they are the alternative Frat House where you get to ride your motorbike up the stairs. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't call them when they spout self-righteous BS over here like they do over there. Your turn. You guys love turn-based, right?

The shipping is pretty steep by UK standards TBH.

^ Not necessarily, but I'll admit that sometimes it feels that way. Admit it, there's a lot of Codexians who actually love the fact that the games they want to play will never be made again. It's like they need the weapons-grade hate to fuel their perpetual nerd-rage. It's dull.

This. I'm at $140 for the boxed game.

OP: re. Agincourt. Rate of fire, environmental conditions and knights trapped under horses won the day. Not taking away anything from the awesome skill of English and Welsh arches armed with Yew war-bows, but more French knights died from a misericord thrust through the visor of their helms, trapped under a horse, than they did from direct arrow strikes. Many medieval weapons are in fact force multipliers, especially bows and polearms that require volume to make a tactical difference. That's difficult to recreate in a small unit computer game. To my mind the skills of the combatants is more important than who made their sword or bow.

I like the semi-conquistador fighter's garb in the top middle picture, I think it captures what I imagine the civilised bits of the P:E world might look like. My favourite are the barbarians --- although I'm getting (a good) Mad-Max gladiatorial vibe from them too. Thanks for sharing.

Please forgive the wall of text. I am a big fan of considering what went before. So the arguments about Vancian magic versus mana-based systems (and the completely understandable passion it generates) got me thinking. And, because I find myself less moved about it than some other folks, I thought that maybe I could add something new to the debate by casting my mind back to other RPGs from the Days of Yore. Of course, it should go without saying that pen and paper systems mechanically might not fit into a CRPG. But thematically... sure. Why not? Magic has always been divided into a giddying variety of types: divine versus arcane, sorcerer versus mage, cantrip versus spell, innate powa versus learnt, scroll versus memorized, generalised mage versus specialist... then you get funky stuff like bards or rangers or paladins all of whom access magic in the form of innate, modal, passive and spell-casting forms. Accessing magic is similarly broad, i.e. via using a wand, magic item or having a stack of five fire-and-forget offensive spells (all viable and powerful additions for a spellcaster). This is before we consider 3E style feats and meta-magic. Therefore pen and paper systems have always allowed spellcasters a broad range of tactics and methods to access magic. Too many perhaps, showcasing the piecemeal evolution of the hobby. So as I watch the debate unfold, it strikes me that the combatants (and I say this with respect) have perhaps not done a three-sixty and fully considered the diversity of What Went Before (WWB). Sorcerers, for example are as near-as-dammit using a mana system, the closest you'll get in an IE game. Sorcerers, by the way, are my favourite arcane spellcasting class. I often bang on about RuneQuest here, but please hear me out (read me out? Whatever). The magic there was (a) divided into two and (b) specifically rooted into the setting. There was Battle Magic and Rune Magic. Battle magic was predicated on the idea that magic was something anybody could access (classless system) if taught. It used a statistic, POWER, using a mana-type metric (boosted by items that one could store POWER in). Battle Magic consisted of buffs, minor healing and stuff. Rune Magic was the preserve of advanced cult members and was like powerful arcane magic in D&D. You could do all sorts of funky stuff with it. But the spell-list was relatively small compared to D&D but all the spells were useful. All the spells were impactive. All of the spells were fun. It was a case study in the Less Is More approach to game design. It combined hardcore, old school flavour with what would now be considered to be a mana-system, but was managed in a way that made sense --- lose POWER by casting spells and your character became physically weaker. The decision to cast spells was one made carefully. Of course, Rune Magic casters had all sorts of tricks up their sleeves to mitigate this, and this was also part of the fun. So, my conclusions 1. Old-skool Vancian magic evolved with the game to the point where there were so many options it began to undermine the whole fire-and-forget principle, creating bulky mechanics to underpin the innate clunkiness of design (meta-magic, prestige classes etc) 2. Sorcerers are almost there in terms of aping the mana model, and might be a model worth studying for this project 3. Other properly granular old-skool systems, like RuneQuest, managed to create impactive, fun, immersive magic systems using a mana-based model 4. Therefore it seems odd that the debate around a mechanic so potentially nuanced can boil down to Vancian versus Mana when there is obviously so much room to exploit in the natural gap between the two. Many thanks if you finished to read my post, and if only a handful of people Google 1st Edition Gloranthan RuneQuest after this then I'll be a happy man. Love & Peace

A serious point: until you actually see the magic system and spells within it, how can you honestly pre-judge cool-downs? I'd be crap at designing a decent spell system and mechanics, which is why I'm not a games developer. But I bet that some of the developers here are having night-time sweats thinking about getting this right. So people need to chill.

I would like a hat. Maybe a baseball cap, maybe a beanie or even a plushie viking hat with horns. All with the logo on. I also think a project eternity action figure would look nice on my desk.

You forgot trollish sexist grognards who drink too much. I feel left out.

I love the mellow music, I'm not a musical person but to my tin ear that music was pretty good and as good as any game music I've heard for a while. Having said that, I loved the kind of Gothic-Russian-Balalika-Cheese of Diablo's music. Seriously, we need bagpipes. Bagpipes are awesome.

The Old-Skool Mega-Dungeon Rules 1. Theme The dungeon needs a reason for being. Because, on the face of it, a bloody great underground maze full of monsters and stuff is a bit mad. So you need a reason: is it a crypt, a mad wizard's lair, a buried city, a cave network, a temple complex, the body of a long-ossified god, the testing grounds of a brutal subterranean cult...? Or maybe a combination of all these things. Obsidian score highly already because they have a Crypt and a Mad Wizard. It's so old-skool I giggled. In a good way. 2. A Reason to Visit This doesn't need to be too complex, but a quest is a helpful reason to justify the dungeon crawl. Be it a rescue, exploration, assassination of an evil protagonist, theft of large rubies from a demonic statue, the garnering of the ichor of a Rust monster's gall bladder for spell components... you get the reason. Of course, a true mega-dungeon has lots of micro-plots going on. Do you side with the trolls on level 2 to get rid of the Umber Hulk on level 3? They're offering a trollblood mace. Do you rescue the obligatory dwarf prisoner on level 6 to find out that he's an assassin tasked with slaying an insane priest of the snake goddess on level 8? 3. Dungeon Ecology The dungeon ecology should make sense. Monsters / tribes / species / organisations etc should make sense. And the ecology should be dynamic. Kill the orcs on level 2 and it might be that the bugbears from level 3 move in. Kill the troll-hunting Umber Hulks and maybe the trolls start taking over without any predators. The adventurers therefore get the chance to influence the dungeon ecology by conquest, extermination or guile. Lot's of opportunities to use skills like sneaking and diplomacy. Why can't a skill monkey character set all the dungeon factions against each other without actually drawing his sword? 4. Traps / Puzzles and of course a Talking Statue Traps, puzzles and talking statues are as old-skool as Gary Gygax's +1 Mace. A dungeon needs lots of them in order to win treasure, guess the answers to riddles, avoid being turned to stone and give the thief in the party the chance to shine. These trials must fit in with theme and ecology. 5. Epic OMG Battles with Cool Monsters Each level should have a memorable battle that kind of illustrates all of the other elements of the mega-dungeon rules. For example, fighting the Bugbear chieftan in a room full of flaming arrow traps whilst ordering your newly recruited lizardman mooks into the fray is cool. Fighting a claustrophobic dragon in a cave isn't. Do you remember the Drow battle on the bridge in IWD? That's was an Epic OMG Battle with Cool Monsters. 6. Phat L3wt Treasure should be there for the taking if the player is wise. To win the Orb of Sacred Ass-Kicking the party should have used guile, combat and outwitted at least one talking statue. Party members should be bloodied and mangled, with several dead NPCs ready to be carted off to a temple for resurrection. 7. Humour I'm not suggesting that the dungeon is like watching a Will Ferrell movie, but slightly tongue-in-cheek humour, used sparingly, is pretty much essential. Time spent around an old-skool gaming table should involve a fair deal of laughter involving critical hits, narrow escapes, grisly deaths, mad wizards, suicidal NPCs, unpredictable behaviour and of course talking statues. 8. Size Matters The word mega isn't there for hyperbolic reasons. The mega-dungeon should have scale. You should be awed and perhaps nervous of the terrain, size and scope of the dungeon. You should need to seriously consider trekking back to town at the end of a level because of the challenges faced therein. --- There are my rules. Please feel free to add / subtract / whatever. But I hope the non-megadungeon fans can dig that this can be as fun a CRPG experience as anything else in the game.

Can the battle music have the skirl of bagpipes and the urgent beat of war drums? Along with epic chanting and wailing? Because that would be neat.

Vancian schamsian.

Kthxbye

^ What stun said. I don't want to be rude to the OP but this one has been, literally, flogged to death.

Does this mean we get to create our own party if we wish...