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Yeah I would not use Kitchen stove as my attack weapon just something to gain max focus at the start of an encounter quickly. After that I would probably on a cipher/x build switch to something else. Aamina's Legacy bow is a good choice on witch because of the +2 penetration from Frenzy and may be even better than red hand considering you can stack enough accuracy to leave the fast hunting bow modal on. The Essence Interruptor looks cool and will get the job done too. The Issue is that even though you have less full attacks than cipher/rogue, barbaric blow still works better with dual weapons - the extra shot from the red hand does nothing in a full attack. Scordeo's Trophy + Currents rush are good choices for barbaric blow attacks because both weapons have enchants that up the crit damage.

It is only because of Thunderous report at start...let me break it down further. In early to midgame on an ascendant, you can hit max focus fast with say the red hand or your favorite bow or some dual pistols (especially if you have a full attack). By late game your max focus pool gets so large that Thunderous Report or some other weapon ability is hard hitting enough to ensure you get to max focus at the start of the fight. If you don't hit max focus in the first second of a fight, other classes will get the upper hand and start doing stuff like storm of holy fire/ minolettas/ the aoe bleed scouts will avenging storm and hit stuff in aoes with their blunderbuss while you are left auto attacking as things get killed around you by other classes.

The Red Hand is the only arquebus because of firing twice that even makes it a good dps weapon of choice particularly on a ranger/x builds because rangers have access to gunner. All the other Arquebus weapons are very bad dps wise and even now you are better off dual wielding something like two scepters or scordeo's+thundercrack pistols /scordeo's+xefa's blunderbuss or taking Aamina's Legacy with the fast modal on if you have enough accuracy stacking and penetration for that unique hunting bow. Aamina's Legacy is special because when enchanted it has a +20% damage lash basically and is the strongest single target bow in the game and can keep up with dual weapon setups. This is for single target sustained dps. For aoe use the mortars.

Turning PotD into PotStupid or was it just Ptsd?

High Harbinger's Robes begs to defer. Also weapon switching on 4 weapon slots fire arms with Fleshmender and never reloading.

The best cipher damage spells are 3sec casts as Boeroer pointed out so at high levels witch get better boosts to speed and dps than streetfighter mindstalker. getting to high levels even in a party is very fast in the game because you can turn in all the major quests in example the first isle digsite investigation, hosango or poko kohara solo. What i mean is that you clear the dungeons with a party but leave them behind and go solo to turn in the quest and get a bonus to xp that way. This works for bounties as well. And in Nekataka you can run around and do all the non-violent quests alone through talking too. Before you fight anything even in a party you can be already level 13/14. Priority is to get Kitchen Stove and upgrade it on any cipher.

It is good that in PotD there are finally some technically challenging fight. Things you can do: -use items like invisibility potions to "reset" an encounter and start it on your own terms -use figurine summons on particularly challenging fights to get more meatshields up -since you know the enemy ai will go for your squishies buff them immediately at the start of a fight with robust (paladin greater lay on hands/ ciphers pain block, druids nature's vigor) -set up defenses up immediately with moonwell under everyone, circle of greater protection, woodskin etc

It depends on your gear and party composition really. If you have "legendary" upgrades on your weapons and a solid mix of classes you can probably do it earlier. I did it at 14 and it seems easier than pulling the frost ghosts and some other random mob encounters in the dlc.

Test 6 Scout Streetfighter/Gunhawk mortars+avenging storms scrolls 12,622 dph Cipher single class asc dph scordeo's+kitchen stove 13,638 Wanderer Helwalker/Gunhawk mortars+avenging storms 8,746 dps dph Shaman Woedica/Berserker Fists+Fire Spells (high dps reference for group) 15,230 dph Cipher was not debuffing anything just max focus through thunderous report into borrowed instinct into amp wave/mind blades Both Ranger build one with Helwalker the other with Streetfighter were on dual hand mortars (legendary of course) and used avenging storm scrolls every fight. most pulls the enemies were clustered Anyways single class Wizard Evoker pure nuker is on another level by himself in the stratosphere, after that you have various Berserker caster hybrids like Witch, Shaman and possibly Warlock though I have not tested Warlock, and after that a tight group of Aoe bleed scouts, Ascendants, Ascendant/monk or rogue hybrids and so on. Single target damage classes fall usually at the bottom but they are still valuable as a dual wield Marauder or a Red Hand Wanderer is good on bosses and dragons. But pure Evoker is so insane with level 8/9 spells that they are exceptional on both lots of mobs and bosses.

it is there and you force level up your party at the start of the game easily to 13 or even 14 without fighting by having the watcher do all the talk quests in nekataka. Then you can do some bounties / hosango/ poka kohara or whatever else with a party. before turning in those main quests though and the bounties when they are completed you leave your party on the ship vola you get to level 17+ even faster.

Wanderer Helwalker could outdps a streetfighter blunderbuss streetfighter potentially but on a Wanderer you don't need to restrict yourself to a blunderbuss you can use Watershaper's, The Red Hand Hand or even any melee two handed or two-weapon style weapon with instruments of pain. Yeah aoe bleed from blunderbusses would be great for mobs for for boss single target damage Wanderer can pull the most from attacking with Red Hand.

Test 5 Evoker Nuker 19,566 dph Ascendant Cipher 10,126 dph Berserker Vengeful defeat / barbaric retaliation with Oathbreaker's End 8,552 dph* *I let the berserker do his thing and attack stuff and if he died I revived him on a 6 seconds timer maximum twice per encounter, the evoker could not stop laughing through all of this but since he had rekvu's helmet on he still nuked the field with lvl8/9 spells and so on.

The poor pain train... I can kind of see that though - Unbroken only really shines when enemies break engagement with you. So if the AI is smart, it won't, and then you just get left with a bunch of enemies hammering your face. From a roleplay perspective, I CAN make a Bleak Walker Principi work, I just have to bend the rules of how Bleak Walkers work in canon a bit for it to fit with the kind of character I want to play. I wonder if I could get away with the Blackened Plate armor as a Pally? I definitely want to be a Rogue multiclass tank though, because the extra splash of damage Rogue provides is just too good. So I'm curious which you'd recommend? I know you had good fun with a Bleak Walker/Trickster on solo - did you have issues with engagements there? I'm assuming Persistent Distraction only applies for as many enemies as YOU have engagement slots, not all of the ones that are engaging you - correct me if I'm wrong. Would you say its damage is on par to, or surpasses, a Swashbuckler? Flames of Devotion, especially with Eternal Devotion, seems like a really good DPS upgrade, especially combined with what Rogue gets. Would a Streetfighter/Bleak Walker work for this kind of tanky playstyle, or am I better off sticking with Trickster for defensive upgrades? Are all of these questions super annoying? I also need to consider which would be more effective in a party, since I don't really feel comfortable soloing yet. Though if I were to solo, I feel like the Holy Slayer would be better in that regard too. In a party based setting I would always go for Paladin over Fighter in a tank - yes the Fighter can do very good damage even as a tank but as I stated the over net gain from other perks which a paladin provides will be less. The Party will be overall more efficient with a Paladin /x tank. Now streetfighter/ trickster are two completely different builds for paladin. With trickster you are generally the main tank as you will have the best defenses. With streeetfighter, it becomes an off tank. in a party of 5 there is generally the tank, the offtank, 2 damage dealer glass cannons and a healer/buffer. Broken down more specifically the main tank is there to hold aggro, take a beating if necessery and either support the team with some form of party buffs to their offensive prowess or debuff the enemies so they become easier to hit (Holysleter trickster can do all three and deal good damage for tank to boot). The offtank is there to 1.) pull aggro off the main tank and the squishies if the main tank becomes too stressed 2.) to deal "decent" damage though not as much as the pure damage dealers though more is always better 3.) provide anything else that team might need at any given point - the offtank is the wildcard slot really (chanters and Priests excel at this role for example). The two damage dealers are usually broken down to one is strong in aoe damage and the other is strong in single target and burst damage. If the damage dealers can also debilitate/ cc targets on the side while doing damage that is a bonus. Finally, healer/buffer is there to make sure everyone is healthy and defenses are up. That to me is an efficient party composition. For example, my last run in a party was Tank-Holyslayer, Offtank Shaman, Aoe dps Mindstalker, burst/single target dps Marauder, Healerbuffer was a Theurge.

Holyslayer Paladin/Trickster is very forgiving of mistakes and very reliable Templar and Herald as well...anything with Paladin basically. In full plate and buffing your defenses deflection and self healing you have to "try" to die to die.

dude have you tried a single class wizard or evoker or is that a "special case" single class?

What Thundercleese said is true basically fighters are more pure martial classes focused on disrupting the enemy while paladin has a bunch of utility thrown in with their abilities that improve their party members attacks. case in point: FoD vs Penetrating strike or Knockdown: FoD can buff fire lash on everyone in the party, fighter takes it to the enemy and maybe knocks them down. Inspiring Beacon vs Charge - the paladin abilities improves everyone around them in that enemies take extra damage for x time, while the fighter ability tries to disrupt the enemy again by knocking them down. but in general all tanks are pretty "low maintenance" if they good

I ran a couple so far and for what it's worth strict dps probably is not the most important factor but it may be interesting to see some results none the less and something worth considering of what the cap is on Tank was always Holy Slayer but he don't matter first to 100K wins, no "cheeze buffs" ie red hand damage boost (unless you are using it) on self just trying to test builds...like if it can be used on any toon and is not a vital cornerstone of the build I don't use it just the skills the builds provide using best appropriate gear for each build and stat spread no damage taken enabled (unity console) - can't really "test" bloodied state bonuses in a fast run through so if a toon is a say a death godlike I just gibve them +1 power level all the time to average things out - Woedica shaman was death godlike others are always hearth orlans anyways. poor barbarians and "bloodied" talent - I don't know how to reliably test that/factor that in. all toons are at level 20 and taking abilities to maximaize damage ai scripts tuned to do best damage priority abilities no healing etc just deeps as much as possible run through hosango, poka kohara, drowned borrows and few other places in Upscaled Potd. Run takes about an hour on average. Hot Razor Skewers is the standardized food of choice dph=damage per combat hour First Test (perfecting ai scripts) Witch rdps 10,046 dph Shaman Woedica "Fists and Fire" 8,846 dph Mindstalker (blunderbuss streetfighter/ascednant) 6,855 dph Cipher asc Pure the Red Hand 3,837 dph conclusion: cipher asc got murdered by not having enough burst and everyone else killing stuff faster - - - - - - Test 2 Transcendent 12,057 dph Cipher asc single class 13,426 dph Witch rdps 21,079 dph Magran pure fire priest 10,935 dph Gave single class cipher better burst at start with Kitchen Stove and dual wield setup, he performed much better. Magran priest too slow as he has no speed buffs. - - - - - - - Test 3 aoe blunderbuss mortar Scout dot bleeder with avenging storm scrolls 9,844 dph Shaman of Woedica "Fists and Fire" 12,853 dph Witch rdps 13,510 dph Mindstalker rdps 6,208 dph conclusion: not enough things to dot bleed when eveything dies fast, but still respectable and the classes in this test were more inline with each other dps-wise except for the Mindstalker - - - - - - - - - - Test 4 Evoker single class "Duke I just'Nukem with lvl9slol" 20,437 dph Witch rdps 15,063 Shaman Woedica "Fist and Fire" hybrid 12,364 dph Wanderer Gunhawk/Helwalker rdps The Red Hand single target 7,031 dph conclusion: Wizard insta buffs with motion and vital essence and nukes none stop with grimoire of vaporous wizardry .... lol. 7K coming from the wanderer is all single target (no aoe attacks) and coming in such a strong group is actually very good considering everyone else aoes stuff. well the Shaman is technically a hybrid between aoe fire spells and single target fist attacks. I'll probably test a single class vengeful defeat berserker next with a nice weapon...you can guess which one

If you take Spirit Tornado instead of Blood Storm (understandable considering both abilities are great and Tornado looks for well rounded and useful to be honest-it's hard to pick) I would take Puppetmaster instead of Secret horrors as a level 3 cipher spell than as Secret horrors and Spirit Tornado effects kind of overlap and you would have a strong "charm" at your disposal. The funny thing is that all these abilities on the two classes are thematically very consistent and most "siren/Banshee" type enemies you encounter do just that - terrify in aoe, silent scream stun/damage and also dominate as a reserve if they have to. The only thing missing is "abduct" which would be a fun ability to have. And then there is always the question of Uncanny luck or Two-weapon style vs Mental Binding. In Deadfire cc as I said is no big deal as bosses are immune except for prone which is inconsistent on bosses because of the concentration, so you are better off improving damage output efficiency rather than cc but otherwise mental bindings is a nice choice because you get more hits to crits on paralyzed enemies.

Streetfighter/Devoted (should have been Eder) is really strong and tanky dd - war hammer is a good choice because of The last Word+Glacierbane Streetfighter/Paladin is similar just a different "flavour" - Paladin has somewhat more team utility but in the end a bit less dps than devoted. Mindstalker streetfighters are best built for ranged they are much more squishy compared to the above two.

Oh Tanga club also has immunity to flanked on enchant by the way I forgot ...which is a "cheaper" enchant because I think you need a precious adra ban to get rid of calmo's curse on Squid's. but on the upside, it is legendary from when you buy it. It's a matter fo crush vs pierce damage and the rapier is more pirate appropriate. Hot Razor Skewers food is great at raising penetration on weapons though anyways.

Streetfighter/Ascendant I usually take escape (unupgraded) + Strike the bell and upgrade as by two rogue abilities and all the nice things from cipher. Dual wield Scordeo's Edge and Xefa's as my main weapon with Kitchen stove as backup. Take extra weapons slots to dual wield lots of pistol+blunderbuss comboes. You get sick penetration with strike the bell+Xefa's. You don't have to reload firearms on weapon switch. works well for single target boss pressure to cycle through your firearms and also to gain focus fast to cast spells. Undead are annoying though as they seem not to "shatter" from bullets - bullet damage should really be crush/pierce in a realistic environment.

You can "farm" kills of people in the gullet....but it's not exactly something a "good" character would do. But no one seems to care though if some poor people in the city's slums die or you go on a whole massacre there, one of the more "realistic" things about the game at the moment.

Glad to know that is why I always opt to take extra weapon slots somehow,,,either talent, cloak or fleshmender. Thunderous Report really nice, Frostfall really nice and it looks like a egoliero is really nice. If that is the case with egoliero and the Oathbreakers end, on a pure melee witch I would not go soul blade anymore either go ascendant. Spamming amplified wave in between hits whenever you have focus is probably better than soul annihilation.

It may "look stupid" but the best way to maximize riposte efficiency on a Holy Slayer in a party while maintaining two-handed dps output is to wield Kapana Taga club (or whatever it's called you get it when you sink Fyrgist) in the off hand. It is a fast weapon (important for two handed full attacks), you get access to club modal -10 or even -25? will on hit on the enemy which is nice when the tank debuffs will defense that way, and it has an enchant that grants +2 engagement slots. And the club itself is not too shabby +3% raw damage per enemy engaged is part of the package.

I personally consider this the "strongest" in terms of damage output of the cipher/multiclass rdps builds at level cap. In tests it out-dpsed mindstalker, transcendent, pure ascendant, as well as even an aoe dot bleed streetfighter blunderbuss scout who was using avenging storm every encounter and spreading aoe dots like crazy, *tested builds were complete with bis equipment and at level 20. Pure priest of magran was easily out-dpsed. The only other build that held relatively close/neck-and neck with this build I tested was Woedica Priest/Berserker (ha another "serker build"- ranged/melee hybrid build that gets insane bonuses to unarmed attacks through woedica spiritual weapon. The reason is that at level 19 you get the barbarian passive skill "blood thirst" which eliminates recovery time after each kill for 10 seconds and works with spells. Cipher is one of the better classes to multi because really your best spells are at level 5 and level 6. And Ascendants benefit from "no recovery" especially because that way you can spam as many spells as possible in the ascendant state time window. I've built this character around items and skills which play into its strengths and it becomes a very efficient dps machine. Of course, if you are playing the game without modded health/defense values on enemies the sustained damage output of this berserker/ascendant may literally be "overkill". Even so, as you will see it has formidable aoe burst seconds into a fight which is a plus in any situation as well as some great sustain because it is partially a cipher. It definitely thrives with level scaling on and high hp mobs to burn through though. Cons: you are literally tissue paper, but that is somewhat mitigated by a few items and some defensive abilities. And unlike a rogue variant, you have to be careful because you have no cheap "escape" talent - but items help in that regard. Pros: you will outdps that mindstalker etc/ whatever easily if you stay alive. "The Banshee Build" Difficulty: Any, but this is not designed for solo at the moment. Class: Ascendant Cipher + Berserker Barbarian Witch Race: best is Human, Hearth Orlan or Death Godlike Background: I recommend "The White that Wends" +1 to perception Skills: this build does not rely on any particular skill. Alchemy is useful though as you may want to take Svef not to murder your team, also history is nice because of "the cloak" Stats base without any bonuses: 14 Might 7 Con 14 Dex 18 Perception 18 Intelligence 3 Resolve Pose: Sickly (goes well with the low con and resolve) Good extra talents to game for: -Infamous captain -Effigies Resentment -Gift from the Machine Abilities: Level 1: Frenzy/ Whispers of Treason or Tenuous Grasp *you will never be using lvl 1 cipher damage spells late game at least not as multiclass Level 2: Blooded Level 3: Penetrating Visions Level 4: Barbaric Blow/ Draining Whip Level 5: Two Weapon Style Level 6: Recall Agony Level 7: Bloodlust/ Hammering Thoughts Level 8: Secret Horrors Level 9: Bloody Slaughter Level 10: Wild Sprint Level 11: Blood Frenzy/ Silent Scream* Level 12: Either Body Attunement or Savage Defiance Level 13: Barbaric Smash/ Borrowed instinct Level 14: Rapid Casting Level 15: Uncanny Luck Level 16: Lion's Sprint/ Amplified Wave Level 17: Disintegrate Level 18: The Empty Soul Level 19: Bloodthirst/ Echoing Horror or Accurate Empower Level 20: Bloodstorm With some compromises, I feel this is the best ability selection, one can say though that Accurate Empower would be more useful against bosses than Echoing Horror. Mindblades get replaced by recall agony to help your single target (boss) dps because quite frankly at high level if there are a bunch of enemies you just cast amplified wave or silent scream. If there are 1 or two left of decent hp you cast disintegrate on them. If they are low hp barbaric blow them to death. Also in itself savage defiance/ body attunement may not be that great but combined with defense bonuses from Borrowed Instinct it becomes decent and then you are not a complete tissue paper thing anymore if you set up those defenses -and these are very fast and sometimes instant casts. Blood Frenzy works with ranged weapons to cause bleed on crit, this is significant because I use Kitchen Stove for my opener and it is is an aoe and it can apply bleed in aoe attack with its special 1/encounter attack. Barbaric Smash does apply +50% crit damage to ranged weapons as well. Items: Weapon slot 1: Frostfall + Kitchen Stove Weapon slot 2: Scordeo's Trophy + Currents Rush Weapon Slot 3 (in case you use Giftbearer's Cloth) Adaptable according to the situation - I like Ecea's Arcane Blaster + Xefa's Empirical, Aamina's Legacy and The Red Hand here from time to time, all these weapons have good uses in the game Weapon slot 1 is used during your opener for thunderous report from Kitchen Stove and the affliction extension from Frostfall. I like using it during casting. Very useful given how Frostfall extends affliction durations. More useful than a flat +10% spell dps increase from griffon's blade. weapon slot 2 is during the majority of the fight as you normal attack weapons as those two weapons have both increased crit damage. Also, Current's Rush can increase the crit damage from your spells. The Scepter modal is useful to get you to bloodied even faster. weapon slot 3 is situational. Ecea's Arcane Blaster can still cause you to "split" your cipher spells into multiples, Xefa's Blunderbuss is overall a very good single target damage blunderbuss, and the Red Hand is useful too boost overall damage and has the best penetration in some fringe situations. When I run into pierce immune enemies thunderous report can actually carry me a long way but it is good to have a second backup scepter or the "slash" damage bow Aamina's Legacy which by the way when enchanted still does more dps than Essence Interrutor even at max metaphysics. Armor: High Harbinger's Robes with +10% damage done/taken enchant Helm: Helm of the White Void (+10 accuracy to a lot of attacks like Silent Scream) or Black-Blade's Hood Acina's Trihorn are all good choices Neck: Precognition Cape: The Giftbearer's Cloth (extra Protection and an extra weapon slot) Gloves: Gloves of the Dungeon Warden or Bracers of Accuracy (both +3 accuracy) Rings: Kuoro's Prize+Ring of the Marksman Boots: Bounding Boots or better Slipper of the Assassin (need those of an extra escape ability) Belt Belt of Magran's Chosen Combat Standard opener: 1.) Blood Storm->Lion's Sprint->Thunderous Report (Kitchen Stove) for max focus and to apply bleed on crit/ chance of paralyze in aoe->borrowed instinct->spam amplified wave->->switch to weapon slot 2 ->cleanup near death targets with a barbaric smash which usually refunds costs when attacking low hp targets. What's devastating about this is that bloodstorm (extra penetration/damage), lions sprint (bonus accuracy) are insta casts so the opening burst happens in 1-2 seconds, crits and paralyzes and leaves you free to spam amplified waves and anything else which further prone targets. Pretty soon you have your first kill and can ignore recovery on your next cast or attack. It is a faster "damage ramp up" than a mindstalker cipher streetfighter or time parasite pure ascendant. The Problem with bosses is that they have immunity to basically everything that is cc - but everything else you can "chain stun" with silent scream - like a real banshee. Helm of the White Void gives +10 accuracy to attacks like silent scream on top of The Empty Soul talent and Lion's Sprint or Borrowed Instant (the last 2 do not stack alas). Now as for Frenzy - blood or spirit? You can's go wrong with either. "Spirit" is the more cc oriented while "Blood" will result in better dps especially on bosses and frees up barbarian resources for barbaric smash and savage defiance should you need it. Personally, I get a 30sec "stagger" in aoe from Thunderous Report in the opener which can be extended on kill thanks to Frostfall in the other hand. A ranged barbarian build also frees up ability points as you don't need thick skin, one stands alone etc but the "blood" passives still give a great boost to any dps build. Focus generation to begin the "frenzied" killing is solved via Thunderous Report (Kitchen Stove). Once it gets going, which is very quick through that opener it has a nice flow as your amplified waves kill or leave enemies near death and you can easily finish them off when ascendant wears off ai command target near death ->barbaric smash. That is also why this build was so efficient in putting up some really nice dps numbers in my test runs. Test 1 (first run perfecting scripts): damage per combat hour dps numbers are relative to each other ie - the stronger the overall group the less outlier numbers - for instance, a scout aoe bleed build for me felt much more powerful than a pure priest of magran which out-dpsed the scout slightly by virtue of being in a different group Everyone used same food (hot razor skewers for +1 powerlevel and +2 penetration on weapons) and had same stats and same gear except weapons sometimes as noted Witch Banshee 10,046 dph - Scordeo's+Kitchen Stove Shaman (Woedica/Berserker) 8,846 dph - Magran's Favor+Marux Amanth when casting storm of holy fire, then summoned woedica fists when attacking Mindstalker (Streetfighter/Ascendant) 6,855 dph - Scordeo's+Kitchen Stove Cipher asc single 3,837 dph (the Red hand) dph Test 2 (scripts fine-tuned from start and gave single class cipher better opener with Kitchen Stove) Transcendent (Helwalker/Ascendant) 12,057 dph Scordeo's+Kitchen Stove Cipher asc single 13,426 dph (Scordeo's+Kitchen stove) Witch Banshee 21,079 dph (Scordeo's+Kitchen Stove) Magran priest single 10,935 dph (Magran's+Marux Amanth) Test 3 the redux Scout (Streetfighter/Sharpshooter) aoe bleeder 9,844 dph Kitchen Stove + Fire in the Hole (performed overall better than dual hand mortars) Shaman woedica/berserker 12,853 dph* Witch Banshee 13,510 dph Scordeo's+Kitchen Stove Mindstalker (streetfighter/Ascendant) 6,208 dph Scordeo's+Kitchen Stove *non woedica priest would probably be a bit lower because +20% raw damage lash to fists on woedica is awesome on frenzied berserker. tests were run up to the first toon reaching 100K damage total. Melee vs ranged witch: at range you wear lighter armor and generally can achieve better dps efficiency given that carnage melee aoe is not that large in PoE2. Now a single class barbarian is something I cannot really imagine as a ranged toon though I think it is possible to find an unorthodox ranged pure barb build. but I digress. In a party setting this is would be my go to pure damage cipher now - though I find pure cipher and minstalker super fun they are not as efficient as a bloodthirsty witch, I'll probably be working on getting it into a state that can solo at least vanilla PotD. Witch screams pure "aoe" damage though - you have little healing abilities and no summon abilities so that could prove an interesting challenge - might involve a lot of respecing during a run and metagaming though.