Lampros

In my experience, going Helwalker makes a big difference, DPS-wise (might bonuses form a substantial part of your damage input, since you don't have a lot of other passive damage boosts). Holy Slayers are pretty great, and if you go Streetfighter you can get very impressive single-target DPS. But you have to set things up to allow yourself to be flanked and/or Bloodied a lot of the time, so probably not the best bet given the style of play you're describing... : P EDIT: Though I should note that the main Streetfighter boosts only require flanked or bloodied. So as long as you make sure you're flanked most of the time (say, by using Escape to teleport into the middle of crowds of enemies) you can get most of the benefits of being a Streetfighter. (Also pretty easy to get flanked if you're doing a solo run, but not sure if that's what you're thinking about!) Crap: Just did some testing at level 20, and damage per swing is really low even with Helwalker. I guess the increased attack speed increase the true DPS quite a bit but I don't think it's enough to compare to a Holy Slayer. But then you get those incredibly long stuns. I am really conflicted now. What other Paladin multi-classes can do huge DPS other than Holy Slayer? I want two Paladin multi-classes at the front, but I don't want both to be Holy Slayers You know you and I are both testing the same thing.Great minds think alike? It's just that I want high DPS while still 1) having high survivability and 2) low micro-management requirement. In this context, Paladin multi-classes are the best. Agreed. His is actually my plan as well. I tested berserker/Goldpact this morning. How did Paladin/Barbarian go? Was this DPS comparable to Paladin/Rogue? I was fairly disappointed with the dps. I was however trying out pistols, so I suspect that’s the problem. Ah, yes, of course

Thanks; it looks like I am criting about 33 percent - though a tiny sample. I will go with Lightning Strikes then. Not much gear that gives lightning lash though - I can only think of the bound pollaxe?

By the way, Swift Flurry or Lightning Strike - which?

Wait, ranged weapons like Hand Mortar can be used with melee attack abilities like Clear Out or Stunning Surge? What? I am missing something here (or more like the devs missed out with balance). Also, I didn't even know that Stunning Surge was an AoE in the first place!

How low are we talking? I tend to script everything and watch the fight - except to heal or get rid of nasty afflictions (only because auto script is not fast enough sometimes). Obviously for tough fights I have to manual the pull (especially in the first island), but that's about the extent of it.

You see... I think your problem is that you don't actually play the game but instead ask all these questions... which yields mostly subjective answers. Without making the mistakes you won't really have the wherewithal. You are partly right; but I did play an entire PotD just now with both Holy Slayer and Swashbuckler, and I liked the Holy Slayer and I hated Swashbuckler. So I am trying to find a different front-line partner for the Holy Slayer - which is why I am looking at the Votary. Thanks; I will try as you suggested. So if Votary is not an ideal partner for my Holy Slayer main, then what Paladin multi-class can give me both high DPS and suvivability/low micro? I've already tried Crusader, and I was fine with it, but it was nowhere as strong as the Holy Slayer; and I didn't like the Swashbuckler either.

I wouldn't try Shadowdancer, because my goal is to have a character that does high DPS while still being survivable and low-micro. So if I were to build a Votary that can do DPS while still not needing so much positioning, then how would I go about it? What skills and gear, for instance? And what would I rely on as the bread and butter move(s)? Edit: And I agree with the limitations of Devastating Blow. But with good scripting, I can consistently get reasonably high numbers.

Yup; and still can't beat 230 Devastating Blow damage with sub-optimal gear

In my experience, going Helwalker makes a big difference, DPS-wise (might bonuses form a substantial part of your damage input, since you don't have a lot of other passive damage boosts). Holy Slayers are pretty great, and if you go Streetfighter you can get very impressive single-target DPS. But you have to set things up to allow yourself to be flanked and/or Bloodied a lot of the time, so probably not the best bet given the style of play you're describing... : P EDIT: Though I should note that the main Streetfighter boosts only require flanked or bloodied. So as long as you make sure you're flanked most of the time (say, by using Escape to teleport into the middle of crowds of enemies) you can get most of the benefits of being a Streetfighter. (Also pretty easy to get flanked if you're doing a solo run, but not sure if that's what you're thinking about!) Crap: Just did some testing at level 20, and damage per swing is really low even with Helwalker. I guess the increased attack speed increase the true DPS quite a bit but I don't think it's enough to compare to a Holy Slayer. But then you get those incredibly long stuns. I am really conflicted now. What other Paladin multi-classes can do huge DPS other than Holy Slayer? I want two Paladin multi-classes at the front, but I don't want both to be Holy Slayers You know you and I are both testing the same thing. Great minds think alike? It's just that I want high DPS while still 1) having high survivability and 2) low micro-management requirement. In this context, Paladin multi-classes are the best. Agreed. His is actually my plan as well. I tested berserker/Goldpact this morning. How did Paladin/Barbarian go? Was this DPS comparable to Paladin/Rogue?

I am testing Paladin/Monk builds in my quest for the ultimate high DPS/high survivability/low micro-management melee character. But immediately I am struck by something: The Monk multi-class cannot seem to do adequate DPS - contrary to the advertisement that it is one of the top melee DPS classes. So how is this theoretic high DPS achieved? I can see that the class can attack fast, but that's not enough. It seems to have very little damage boosting passives; and none of the actives are quite as devastating as - well, the aptly named Rogue's Devastating Blow. To give you an idea, I just ran a test at level 20 with the Fampyrs at some reef at right corner island, and the highest hit the Holy Slayer main did was 230 (without Magran's Favor), whereas the Votary test tube baby only did 120 at tops! Literally almost half. Now, I know that the Votary can attack faster, but unless it can attack nearly twice as fast, I don't see how the Votary is making up the raw damage per hit deficit. What am I doing wrong? Oh, and add insult to insult, I was testing a Helwalker - which I will almost certainly not run in an actual playthrough. TLDR: Monk DPS sucks in my tests; please tell me how to increase it.

In my experience, going Helwalker makes a big difference, DPS-wise (might bonuses form a substantial part of your damage input, since you don't have a lot of other passive damage boosts). Holy Slayers are pretty great, and if you go Streetfighter you can get very impressive single-target DPS. But you have to set things up to allow yourself to be flanked and/or Bloodied a lot of the time, so probably not the best bet given the style of play you're describing... : P EDIT: Though I should note that the main Streetfighter boosts only require flanked or bloodied. So as long as you make sure you're flanked most of the time (say, by using Escape to teleport into the middle of crowds of enemies) you can get most of the benefits of being a Streetfighter. (Also pretty easy to get flanked if you're doing a solo run, but not sure if that's what you're thinking about!) Crap: Just did some testing at level 20, and damage per swing is really low even with Helwalker. I guess the increased attack speed increase the true DPS quite a bit but I don't think it's enough to compare to a Holy Slayer. But then you get those incredibly long stuns. I am really conflicted now. What other Paladin multi-classes can do huge DPS other than Holy Slayer? I want two Paladin multi-classes at the front, but I don't want both to be Holy Slayers You know you and I are both testing the same thing. Great minds think alike? It's just that I want high DPS while still 1) having high survivability and 2) low micro-management requirement. In this context, Paladin multi-classes are the best.

Is Warhammer still viable for DPS builds? The base damage is so low relative to other 1H weapons for DPS , and the advantage of two weapon damage types did not come into play as much as I expected in testing. Someone also mentioned that the Last Word can shut down boss casters from casting at all in old threads, but it looks like the silence duration on that weapon has been halved?

In my experience, going Helwalker makes a big difference, DPS-wise (might bonuses form a substantial part of your damage input, since you don't have a lot of other passive damage boosts). Holy Slayers are pretty great, and if you go Streetfighter you can get very impressive single-target DPS. But you have to set things up to allow yourself to be flanked and/or Bloodied a lot of the time, so probably not the best bet given the style of play you're describing... : P EDIT: Though I should note that the main Streetfighter boosts only require flanked or bloodied. So as long as you make sure you're flanked most of the time (say, by using Escape to teleport into the middle of crowds of enemies) you can get most of the benefits of being a Streetfighter. (Also pretty easy to get flanked if you're doing a solo run, but not sure if that's what you're thinking about!) Crap: Just did some testing at level 20, and damage per swing is really low even with Helwalker. I guess the increased attack speed increase the true DPS quite a bit but I don't think it's enough to compare to a Holy Slayer. But then you get those incredibly long stuns. I am really conflicted now. What other Paladin multi-classes can do huge DPS other than Holy Slayer? I want two Paladin multi-classes at the front, but I don't want both to be Holy Slayers

Can Escape be used like Charge? I don't know what Rakhan Field Boots do, and I have not seen them yet, even though I've gone through almost 2 full games. Any other equipment options that can boost offensive capabilities of Escape?Escape isn’t offensive, I’m afraid — it’s merely (“merely”?) a cheap (1 guile) teleport that’s very useful for changing positions/putting enemies between you and some other enemy you don’t want to be near/getting at squishies hiding behind lots of bodies. (It also gives a short defensive boost, but not the selling point.) The reason it’s great with this build is that you still count as standing still when you use it, meaning your stoic steel bonus remains, Stand Firm doesn’t prevent you from moving, and so on. Thanks for the clarification. But can't you still use it to teleport to the caster or the archer whom you'd have a difficult time getting to but want to bring down ASAP? I guess I better buy a character from the in and experiment Yes you absolutely can! My most frequent use of the ability. EDIT: I thought you meant “offensive” as in “does damage” : P Ah, good! By the way, how does Paladin/Monk combo compare to Paladin/Rogue in terms of damage? I saw crazy fire damage build, but I read later in the thread that it got nerfed to the ground? I did a solo PotD run with a Darcozzi/Helwalker based on the "Burn Baby Burn" and "No Pain, No Brains" builds, and it was a lot of fun. DPS-wise, it felt pretty comparable -- worse at single target DPS, but the AOE fire blasts really helped speed up fights against lots of opponents. But that was before all of the nerfs to the Monk, and (more importantly) to the key weapons involved. (Sadly, it's now much harder to get the area of effect blasts to trigger.) So my guess is it'll fall behind DPS-wise. But I haven't done a direct comparison since then, so take that with a grain of salt! Surprisingly, I found my Goldpact/Streetfighter build to be much tankier than my Darcozzi/Helwalker build. I'm sure part of this is equipment choice, but I really noticed the effects of not having to eat a +50% across-the-board damage increase... Yeah, sadly I think I will need to forgo Helwaker if I go Monk at all.

In my experience, going Helwalker makes a big difference, DPS-wise (might bonuses form a substantial part of your damage input, since you don't have a lot of other passive damage boosts). Holy Slayers are pretty great, and if you go Streetfighter you can get very impressive single-target DPS. But you have to set things up to allow yourself to be flanked and/or Bloodied a lot of the time, so probably not the best bet given the style of play you're describing... : P EDIT: Though I should note that the main Streetfighter boosts only require flanked or bloodied. So as long as you make sure you're flanked most of the time (say, by using Escape to teleport into the middle of crowds of enemies) you can get most of the benefits of being a Streetfighter. (Also pretty easy to get flanked if you're doing a solo run, but not sure if that's what you're thinking about!) Yes, Helwalker DPS boosts seem substantial; but, on the flip-side, keeping them alive also sounds fine - especially my play-style that relies heavily on auto scripts and "watching" fights. I agree that it's not hard to get flanked on the Streetfighter, except that I was running with 2 Ranger multi-classes that had pets - as well as two other front-liners. So I wasn't all that out-numbered often either. I guess my set-up was not really suited for a Streetfighter either - and not just my play-style. In any case, I don't mind Streetfighter; it's just that I think Streetfighter Holy Slayer is better than Streetfighter Swashbuckler - which is to say Paladin multi-classes are just better than Fighter multi-classes.

So how do Votaries compare to Holy Slayers in terms of DPS? Comparable, better, or worse? And can non-Helwalker versions do reasonable DPS? Given how I am anal about not dying - or coming close to dying - I don't think I'd enjoy Helwalker.

Anyways, guys, none of you answered my primary question: Can Paladin/Monk do comparable or better DPS relative to Paladin/Rogue? And if yes, do I need to go the Helwalker route to do it? I suspect I won't enjoy Helwalker for the same reason I didn't enjoy Swashbuckler as much. Edit: Correction - I asked this question in another thread. Oops!

It is not numerically possible for a Streetfighter Swashbuckler to do less damage then a Trickster Holy Slayer. Unless you were not using your Swashbuckler right and didn't trigger his specials. Swashbuckler also has much higher Crit chance, so that also can provide a benefit to on-crit effects. 40% of damage taken is possible, but it matters little with Unbending, as you can heal trough most incoming damage. Of course Paladin wins in the support department. The streetfighter has the potential to do better damage only if you babysit him the entire fight which becomes tedious very fast. Exactly!

It is not numerically possible for a Streetfighter Swashbuckler to do less damage then a Trickster Holy Slayer. Unless you were not using your Swashbuckler right and didn't trigger his specials. Swashbuckler also has much higher Crit chance, so that also can provide a benefit to on-crit effects. 40% of damage taken is possible, but it matters little with Unbending, as you can heal trough most incoming damage. Of course Paladin wins in the support department. Yes, there were two main factors: 1. The Holy Slayer was using dual swords; and the Swashbuckler was using dual hammers. And it looks like dual swords consistently do a bit more DPS - even though there are more slash/pierce immunes/resists - because the base damage of hammers is so low. (I don't really understand this decision - either from balance or realism perspective.) 2. I do not like to keep my characters bloodied; so the Swasbuckler was almost always healed to 50 percent-plus health almost instantly. Relatedly, in the early part of the game I had to use Withdraw multiple times to get him out of the fight constantly (when I had no Barring Death's Door), because otherwise he would have died. Still, even with all this considered, I was unimpressed with the Swashbuckler DPS - though partly because my expectations were so high. Regardless, I think Holy Slayers are better characters overall - when damage avoidance/mitigation and utility are also considered.

It shouldn't be hard for a good ranged DPS to out-DPS a melee? Also, upon extensive testing for the course of a playthrough, I think Red Hand is slightly over-rated. Either Aamina's Legacy or Experimental Interruptor does comparable DPS.

Can Escape be used like Charge? I don't know what Rakhan Field Boots do, and I have not seen them yet, even though I've gone through almost 2 full games. Any other equipment options that can boost offensive capabilities of Escape?Escape isn’t offensive, I’m afraid — it’s merely (“merely”?) a cheap (1 guile) teleport that’s very useful for changing positions/putting enemies between you and some other enemy you don’t want to be near/getting at squishies hiding behind lots of bodies. (It also gives a short defensive boost, but not the selling point.) The reason it’s great with this build is that you still count as standing still when you use it, meaning your stoic steel bonus remains, Stand Firm doesn’t prevent you from moving, and so on. Thanks for the clarification. But can't you still use it to teleport to the caster or the archer whom you'd have a difficult time getting to but want to bring down ASAP? I guess I better buy a character from the in and experiment Yes you absolutely can! My most frequent use of the ability. EDIT: I thought you meant “offensive” as in “does damage” : P Ah, good! By the way, how does Paladin/Monk combo compare to Paladin/Rogue in terms of damage? I saw crazy fire damage build, but I read later in the thread that it got nerfed to the ground?

So Monks have been nerfed? I am trying to put together a Paladin multi-class build that combines high damage and good survivablity, and I've only found the Holy Slayer route so far. How does Votary compare now, if Monks are nerfed?

What if you don't use Invocations at all then? Just go multi-class with something like Paladin and attack actively - perhaps use something like the burning DPS boost chant plus dual wield burning damage boost weapons like Modwyr and Magran's Favor?

I was wondering about this: Can chants be interrupted at all?

Are there weapons or other gear that adds to the corrode damage of the Bleak Walker Paladins the way weapons like Modwyr and Magran's Favor adds to fire damage for regular Paladins?