Hassat Hunter

Deus Ex

Also this one is funny: Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. Quality should outweigh quantity in every aspect of game design. More isn't always better; is more crap better than less crap? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If they put in enough content to allow 3 totally different playthroughs through NWN2 that would have been more content, no? If there are 3 different paths, why do you assume THAT quality...as it is another method of quantity?

If you got 2 extra years of dev time I doubt anybody with ANY competance would choose to "just scrap that then"... And what problems do you talk about? The technical ones? That has nothing to do with lenght or design but with QA doing it's job... which was done badly in Kotor2's case. Since the arrival of internal QA at OE technical issues encountering through the game should be reduced (or hopefull almost completely gone)..., but that doesn't make any need for a gametime reduction at all, as a matter of fact, it could greatly benefit into making the game last longer without people leaving during that time... Nice example. I assume Electron has been hacked and posted all over the net? " An engine was already there... that should not block terrain generation/story creation/quest creation etc. Toolset... wasn't the toolset of the users supposed to be (a slighty modified) version of the one that the devs used to make the main quest... then how can creating that prevent them from making a longer game since they clearly can use other toolsets (more complicated/not for users) for other games and still bring out 40 hour games...

That was the question I posed you... If BioWare made clear the MP was unsupported how can one make a claim the MP section of HotU was "broken" since it worked as intended...

Well, you did try say "if they made it 20 hours they are likely to put in content to have it last 3 times". Well, guess what; OE also did that (even more playthroughs too) in their 40 Hours game. And even if 3x20 = 60 2x40 = 80, but wait, it HAS the same replayability so that would even be 120 . If NWN2 has a 20 hour campaign I would be dying to know where that 2 years of development time went into... making sure soil errosion was 1.000001023x beter than in Oblivion? Developing a help file took up the other 20 hours (and 2 year dev time)? Doing 2 year of field research by playing PnP games and doing nothing like programming? How you turn it, it doens't make sense that OE can make a good 40 hours campaign, as they have already proven, and then spend 3x the time needed for that to turn up a 20 hours campaign

Thanks... will check it out the next time I load up Oblivion (which may take awhile)

Volourn is suddenly more/better of a source than BioWare themselves? Anyways, you claimed that it was a designer decision and thus NO bug (since bad design and bug where not to be combined). Yet still you found it needed to post: Broken = Bug preventing it from working like it should. Contradictive... It was (for me) from the beginning about the fact that if people lost quest-sensitive equipment that would make it impossible to finish the main quest (wheter it was selling/dropping or using it up when you still needed some elsewhere) it was a bug. You claimed it was just "bad design" though, and intended... and should not be catagorised as a bug... Note that an example is just an example; If it is about selling does that mean that that is the entire point? ... no it is just an EXAMPLE. I never said anything about being unhappy when you cannot drop a quest item either, but it seemed you and Llyranor tried to make such a claim though... You mentioned you could think up ALOT of exploits that where no bugs. Since I couldn't mention ANY I asked if you could mention some. You didn't... is that because it just ain't possible that a exploit ain't a glitch? And if there was a reason why you only pointed toward sellable quest-items you clearly didn't get the point I tried getting across in my first post. *sigh* Guess I will have to start using atleast 3 examples if I wanted to use an example to prevent people to think that which is talked about in the example is the main point <_<

Llyranor and deganawida; Your arguments that if you make a 20 hour game it probably has that kind of stuff where a 40 hours game has not is FALSE. Let's look at OE's first game; produced in 1(!) year; having 40+ gameplay hours; high replayability due to a large amount of things you could do differently. Despite the begin (Peragus) and the end (after Dantooine meeting) the game had some perfect quality Now OE has 3 years. why In gods name should they spend 3x the time to make a good story half-the-size of their one year game with about the same replayability. THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. If a company can make a quality 40-hours-game in 1 year do you really think they have to work and put all of their creativaty into a game to make 20 hours of content... sorry, but I don't believe that nor accept that IF it is the actual happening. Making tools for gamers (which should have been almost already done at the begin of the project) or a new engine (which is actually an update of an old one) should not take up so much time that the gameplay hours of NWN2 go to waste... Now about the DS2 argument... do you find "another character" really additional content? I would sooner bring in the fact that that is the only place higher-leveled items popup. IMHO the Veteran and Elite mode of DS2 actually have FAR too little additional buff than they should have gotten... as beside a char and items almost everything is the same... bonusses like aditional areas/quests and such would have been very welcomed

Seperated into 3 new topics, both growing fast... it looks like we have an epidemic. I still believe Feargus AT LEAST meant that rushing speed would be 20 hours, but just in the case that it would be 20 hours: And how are you supposed to put something like that in a 20 hour game (including all main and side quests)? Agreed. I like Vice City way better than San Andreas just because it becomes a chore and is spread way too far out than is good for the quality of the story. Still (even if I find VC better) I spend more time playing around in San Andreas... thus got more money of value... weird, maybe, maybe not... Having said that I NEVER played a RPG less than 30 hours that I deemed anywhere near good. The platform where there should be some item-scavanging and combat to get levels does not allow "only combat when the story asks for it", unless you wan't every goblin to wield 5000XP and every secondary Fed-Ex quest 10000XP as so to compensate the fact that you actually advance through a story where you SHOULD start weak and gain power and more power to be finnally able to do the main thing, be it saving the world, the girl, your village or some other goal like finding yourself (PS:T) or just taking revange. If you make a RPG last 20 hours with the complexity of using the D&D system you either get 1) Storystreamlined... as mentioned you should get enormous XP-boosts per meagerly available battle and it is just the question if the story would be so compelling and complex as to make up for the lack of confrontations, as there is no time for it 2) Hack&Slash... Meaning that in order to hit the 20 hour limit alot of combat has to be done and the main-story snows under since you need to kill kill kill in order to proceed on that path, which can never hold a compeling plot. And now when you start "but I have played other games with a nice plot in xx hours" think before... Is it a RPG? FPS tend to be shorter due to the fact they are that, FPS, and thus based on fragging and killing usually. Just your avarage Hack&Slash. Games like Solid Snake can be shorter because you do not NEED to gain these levels to advanche nor need to engage into alot of combat (prefered not to engage at all). Items should not be sought since they are given, and your char stays the exact same the entire game through. Sure, some games can do that but with a RPG that just ain't possible...

Apparently when linking to Wikipedia and quoted that Game Design issues are bugs there was some agreement (with only himself as far as I could see) that "Game Design" only consists out of the ingame conversation stuff or something. Like AI, Level-design, fighting rules, way inventory is done etc. etc. etc. is no "game design" Anyways, still had no reply on the question if you could give me an exploit in a game that wouldn't be a bug... Now on the current topic: If there was an issue in MP that make you stuck at a certain well because only one player could get through that is obviously a "designer decision" and NOT a glitch. Why do you try to de-power your own argument here by claiming this game-stopping glitch a BUG yourself; even if you frequently stated before that if there was such a thing happening it was a designer decision. HELL, BioWare even confirmed that it was a decision on their part not to have the MP function...?

SS just bitching for the sake of doing so. Alanschu disagreeing without actually having any good indication what he disagrees about... How "didn't I see this last night too"... Anyways; I find Volourn's BBE far better than what alot of games, movies, TV-shows, books etc. have thrown against us, or the Villains SS seems to hold so dearly. What is better than facing an actual enemy that has been part of the story all along and you yourself have GIVEN reason to blast the hell out of you (and that inside the game too, not before) than some wacko boss type with

It's a good thing the baddies in the Kotors survived so long to make an epic battle, eh <_<

Sounds pretty buggy and glitchy... and all that is wanted again by some people of the boards? Would you guys mind if I disagreed?

I never bought the cube, nor took the Sphere after delivering it to the old man before leaving Sigil... Yeah some of those items in the shop where indeed needed... but that is (unlike in many other games) quasi on the same screen as where you had to use them... EDIT: Also alot you were send for to get them instead of just getting them and then thinking WTF am I supposed to do with this...

Tell me how item intensive the Ultima's were...

No. Everytime he hit 0 he regained all health once again. Thus an endless spiral of combat...

And even if Oblivion uses such a system for quest you can still blow it with for exemple the Nirnroot quest... HK-rebuilding shows something that is not done alot in previous games, both due to the risk as to the way inventories were build then (no unlimited space back then), but it does happen now due to seperate "quest item" screens.

PS:T And if it didn't worked back then why re-add it now. Why not get food back too... let's make sure that while exploring Oblivion you go to a food shop 3x a day or you die of hunger! OH YEAH... the coolness... What I get from the Ultima's is that is mostly used passwords and codes instead of items though... making you need paper... loads!

The idiot can't... Not asfar as I know atleast You are too late...see 2 posts above

Several bosses in FPS/RPG are invernable till certain events are set into motion. I could point you toward the game Painkiller and if you actually finished DS2 you also know what I talk about (alot of people had trouble with that too... MAJOR BUG!!!11111!!1ONE1!!! VALDIS WON'T GET HURT!!! was a common thread title) In the old games like BG and PNJ questupdates (of the mainquest) usually were more because of convo options and actual triggers of being there and/or killing enemies than for example Kotor2's possession of the HK parts in order to build HK-47... Oh, and to add heat... we all blame Troika for the wherewolf now, where is the blame for SION on Korriban, eh... damn, you guys must all hate OE seeing your replies of how you hate everything that is put in other games That OE actually uses itself!!!

Llyranor I think there is some reason why devs do that. I don't understand the reasoning to bash Bethesda for not allowing to drop quest items if the same cannot be done in ANY other modern RPG. Tried to do it with both Kotors... you gonna have a hard time. Now is OE so extremely incompetant as to rely on "non-sellable, non-droppable" items or has it some other reason, which could be like: Having actual game-events happen based on a quest-item. In the older games that would be harder, since you had to indeed calculate the risk that the player might have dropped it. Thus the quests were more of the "talk/journal" type of stuff than the actual having of some item. WHY take both systems and mix them? That would make the worst system in RPG-history... and is probably the reason why nobody did so yet...

I know several FPS that contain "invincible" enemies till you meet certain requirements. How do you know you should not activate those?

I ask you. You advise people to carry around junk of which they have no idea they need it for the MQ and if they drop it because they think it is random junk they are screwed for eternity... That is atleast what I get from the continued mentioning "if you drop a MQ-item you are an idiot"...

Well, you guys DO claim so by having high value to some random named key and the people should know it is important... Even if it is named important like "Kvatch front gate" you might drop it before you notice WTF "Kvatch" is and that it was important for the main quest...since "Brachor's front gate" was totally usefull for 5 seconds... NOTE: Probably not actual ingame items...

Sure I don't mind if items and stuff from secondary quests can be sold and dropped and such, and you have to pay attention there... But for the main quest there has to be a proof system as to prevent you from the need of taking 200 pages of notes of items with their names/uses and locations you left them. We need EVOLUTION... NOT devolution...