Hassat Hunter

No, since I don't believe this to be the bottleneck. But if there is the issue of "testers having trouble getting through it all" then additional testers will be needed. Now onto your devs (who are only in this argument this and your previous post ) why should there be any additional added. The creator of the code will alter it and then the QA can once again attack. If the code isn't fixed yet the QA can't really do alot so how can they give this coder more work then? As you might have noticed in the Dev. Center place Bulock said once he hanged around here often because he couldn't work cause bugs where being fixed... Really; why need more coders to alter existing code than there were needed to write the code in the first place? Sure, it sucks for a dev when their code seems to malfunction and have to alter it, but how do they figure out their code doesn't work (on special occassions); due to the testers ofcourse! You act like if you add in an additional tester he forces code alterations like every 10 min. Really depends on what is broken, how, and the complexity of the code... Workload, eh... if the standerd in RPG-land has been 40 hours wouldn't the workload then be equal to the "standerd". A 20 hour game would already been a great reliever... And on the "big picture" you before commented how everybody was seperated onto their own part etc. etc. so WHAT "big picture"? That if your new tools alter so much as that the existing content is no longer functioning you can try alter the tools differently than to remake all the content; how hard it may seem that a step back can ALSO be taken with tools... Eh, how do you notice something peaking out if it has become part of the "routine". If there is always a flickering on the ground at spot X and you long enough have that in you might start seeing that as part of "normal" instead of grasping it actually shouldn't be there. Besides that if you start noticing all that peaks out it will be hard for that one as to get themselves additional content added to them... "That monster added is a bug!!!" "Eh, no, we found this battle too easy and added a monster" " Sorry for double post...quoting broke with so many...

Indeed. Why let so many hours of work go to waste then due to an easy to solve bottleneck. That makes no sense and you know it... that it takes this long talking about QA while there is no reason to believe that that is a bottleneck at all Then you have to alter the tools as to make them work. Not always the system has to change with the tools, the tools can also change with the system... *gasp* Because HL2's Source was finalised and Vampire's not... Tell me, you are the one who knew ALL about Vampire and it's use of Source... And yes, Vampire was done when the leak occured and had to be delayed since Valve wanted HL2 to be the first Sourcegame Then maybe you should explain it better? If there is a "global bug" (convo system, combatcode, issues for all NPC's etc. etc.) fixing it is not needed on every single mappart, just in the code where the mistake is made. Now HOW much code really is needed as to make an additional 10 gameplay hours.. not alot since it is mostly levelcrafting and questcreating (altough that quest-creationstuff can be counted as sort of code too). Really, do you need to alter combatcode for additional areas? Do you need to alter the ruleset for additional content? Sure you have the triggers and such and there will be any additionally coded things but far less than when making a new game of even 5 hours (with the same engine)...

Look! Necroposting... Your turn

Could you explain how you got Red Alert working then?

'cause who cares about the lives of some nobodies in the middle of nowhere, eh?

Having an expansive M-16, expansive nightgoggles, expansive bulletproofvest, expansive grenades etc. etc. etc. and 2 years of training etc. doesn't mean an awfull lot if some AK-47 terrorist blows your head of. An 10 million chopper is nice... but a $1000,- rocket shooting it down is nicer... " EDIT: PS. Also you can WASTE cash. JSF anyone?

Till your notion here it was only about "finding" them... NOT fixing them. You and alanschu claimed that with a 40 hours game it would be far harder for the QA-crew to find all bugs than with a 20 hour game. That really depends on the amount of glitches presented in the map and quest and such that make that additional 20 hours. A comat-code-issue is the same with 20 hours of gameplay as with 40. If Action X crashes the game in 20 hours it does so in 40. If a quest in that additional 20 hours is bugged however, yes, they need to find it. But I doubt it is twice as hard to find all bugs with twice the content, since alot of bugs overlap each other. Besides EVEN if they find less bugs the chance they these will be smaller and more insignificant is bigger, as it will likely be bugs like in the graphics, little quest issues etc. And if a bug is fixed why can't QA do anyhting else? With a 40 hours game they also have alot more to choose from what to do else then if they cannot continue with their main part they were working on. Even if they manage to break the entire game by, for example, make the PC a placeholderbox bigger than the level (thus making it impossible for him to move anywhere) they can always try testing things like Pazaak and Swoop Racing. Do I have to mention the Bio-testers on occassion had to be ripped away from Pazaak to test the game? That one is 40 hours and relatively bug-free... Wow. I probably wonder what people would have thought of you begin 20th century. OFCOURSE working on mind-dumbing jobs in the car factory was the same as being able to construct an entire chair... The fact you did nothing else for long times was no health risk...nay. If you have a 40-hours game and a 20-hours and (to make things easy, as this is not as it goes in RL) spread it among 15 employers, would you expect the dumbing down like in those factories would get in effect sooner or later? You might not call it "loosing attention" but if you just start going into routine you might not notice that little bug since it became part of the routine you got used too... NOT good. Good thing thus that they get other assignments from time to time, but it is a fact that there probably more versility in a 40hours game than a 20hours for them too. "and sometimes you don't even test the entire game" LOLZ... you tell me to get a grip on a QA-testers life... "sometimes" is more like "almost always"... Anyways like with any job if something repeats and repeats and repeats into what then becomes like a rithme, that is NOT good, as they might start seeing issues as "supposed to be" and we don't wan't that do we? You compare a RPG (Story-intensive) to a Arcade game like Pong, Pacman or Spaceinvaders (action intensive)? r00fles indeed... if you wan't that kind of replayability play a hack&slash. Wait... that was not good enough because of the lack of story, eh Do I have to mention several 40 hour games ALSO have a 2/3 times replay value. And thus the gameplay time of that one expentinally grows compared to the 20 hours game? 20x20x20 VS 40x40x40... Hard choice... NOT See this post Yeah, cause hiring a few QA testers is really more expansive than making 10 hours of content you gonna scrap due to lack of testing time... suuuuuure What was it about "bad design". Ah, yes... If you work with editing tools you probably keep in mind IF there has to be compatability needed with previous versions; and make sure that one ain't broken... Well, yup, Epic and ID seem to do so... but do you REALLY think that despite being released simultaniusly HL2 and Vampire used the same version of the Sourcecode? By the looks of it after the leaking of Source Vampire was already done (and thus the code alterations that V. used yet HL2 not and where thus not standerd in Source) and any alterations done to HL2 code where not implented in Vampire... thus the Troika's had to alter the Source code themselves to fix the mess...

Ha...let Obsidian beat that. [/sarcasm] If these 2 are the type of games SEGA usually make I have a bad feeling about PG. Even worse than for NWN2 at the moment <_<

This only proves that the USA is great in wasting cash... Money doesn't say jack about quality. Is a richer person better/more handsome/awsum... the many complains about Bill Gates say otherwise. Is a more expensively made movie better. Usually not... Is a more expensively made game better. Usually not...

The site also mentions it

No you aren't. That is what the rest of your post tells me ateast. Alanschu is the one who thinks the MP is "broken" then how can you agree with him if you say it ain't broke

See previous post So if that IS the problem what stops them of hiring some more people as backup? Ofcourse that can happen, but that is why they are also tested... long before the actual testing of the content... that is being made around the same time Do you know in what state they got it. Did it function correctly? How many issues and leaks and whatever did they ironed out themselves? Did it actually already looked like Vampire now did when they got it? First the On-Horse Combat, then the Z-Axis... all for just $1.99,- !!!

Not too long ago that would have been "bad design" or "a design decision". *Broken* falls under *bugs*... "

Well, if you only have 20 hours you might be stuck with a smaller area that you have to replay causing it faster to be a chore and then you'll loose attention to it. So it isn't exactly that easy to specify if it is a improvement or deprovement...

NO No... why would it do "better" at 20 hours? Is the additional 20 hours more complicated to seek through than the first. And besides that you can always hire more if the current bunch does not know enough. Anyway, I think with the current 15 man OE should be capable of properly testing a 40 hour game. And that was the point I was trying to get across to Alanschu: That that was(/is) a very poor excuse for making a game shorter... K Rewriting is just a far more advanched way of "expanding". Especially if (like Volourn already noted) there is only a part rewritten... Really, DX:IW's alteration of the Unreal 2 engine was also pretty near rewriting... Indeed. And I doubt that during this time game-design came to a complete stop. The created works could just advanche with the tools... You know in what state Troika aquired the Source Engine? If yes...then you can post stuff like this...

Alanschu... I only reply to the points made by others... never bring up my own. If that forces me to repeat myself the statements/questions because apparently it didn't come across then so be it...

To cut on prodoction time. That doesn't mean that (bar very few exceptions) EVERY dev alters the engine to their wishes. Does this always have to happen before the work on the actual game can begin... doubt it... Hell, I have a game here (Painkiller) that got a ENGINE UPDATE for all existing levels in a freaking patch! Explain that if the engine segments where needed completely in order to build up the maps and terrains... Oh yeah, they "suddenly" had a different toolset. Ofcourse if you sit at your PC for a few hours you do not advance from A to Z by B, C, D, E etc... No, after A Z is a sudden entry... No, but it is altered and edited even still. Lately the added mouth-movement and what else is yet to come. A final version (or even near-final version) of the engine is not needed to make those wire-framed levels... nor do the levels have to be completely build from scratch again after an engine update...

Oh, how clever... There ARE QA people working on a game during the earlier stages. No beta-testing duders, but certianly QA... Says mister "use the Source engine to code NWN2 Why should be. A graphics engine is a graphics engine. I am sure you can map and code quite well without that in perfect shape... Sure they know how to use one well. THEN WHY the 20 hours, eh? It ain't cuss they couldn't use the toolset for such a long time as everybody here loves to claim but is based on the fact that the graphics engine ain't finished. Once again: Who needs the

Do you really mean you think cutting 33% of a game 6 months before release after 2.5 year of creating does NOT worry you? We all know that is because LA has an incompetant team. Which is why Obsidian hired an internal team. If that team is not capable of keeping more than 20 hours bugfree though it is more a step backwards than one forwards... Once again, I doubt that will be the reason for a 20 hour game, if the game is 20 hours at all... I repeat: If you have 40 hours of quality game yet have to make it 20 because the QA team couldn't cope up something is SERIOUSLY wrong there... Maybe they did more than you think they did. Did you work at Troika? Knew how the engine came in and left? And rendering is graphics, yup... what does that have to do AT ALL with levelbuild/story and or quest-design I wonder... ofcourse I am missing such an obvious link Did you miss my telling how the Epic-people test UT2K7's level. IN WIREFRAME. Tell me what (next-gen)engine you need to run wirefrime... and you also mention yourself the tools and engine changed OVER TIME. Thus they had tools, but they became different the further into the dev. process... and to end completely different... Probably helping for the stories of PNJ and PG I think. They invented something for that. It is called QA...

I wan't a job in QA now... as I just found out you can sit on your ass siping a drink for the first 2.5 year of development. *sigh* What kind of bugs is QA supposed to be finding in the begin of dev cycle when everything is bound (and WILL) to change? Think about it... And that usually does NOT happen 2 years after the starting of the project... and these gamecodes and mechanics can be changed too... unlikely, but alterations are always possible ofcourse. Really, you do NOT have to have a finished engine and toolset to start making the actual "visible" content for a game. If that was the case it would take ALOT longer to actually create games... I was mentioning that they had no problems making 40+ hours games with these tools. Seeing how those did not have to be presented to the community it was likely these were alot more complicated to use than NWN2's. Yet still you think they cannot use such a toolset wisely to also make a 40+ here? Odd... I know... but the fact is that the Epic people just play a level without ANY fluff whatsoever (wireframe etc.) untill they fit it fine to make textures, models, GFX etc. for it... which they should not be able to do according to you since an engine change would seriously alter the levelbuild, or something like that it was... Why so. They already got a toolset with the Aurora engine. Despite altering the graphics engine completely the fact that the other codes still worked as should should make them able to actually go work on the areas they wanted and then later add in the fluff made by the graphics engine...similar to UT2K7's level design, just with more looks from right away... They change, indeed they do. But that does not mean that levels cannot be created and filled till all of this has been finalised, as you are claiming. They can just make it and then when there is a newer model for the char they replace. If the convotree is altered they change... etc. etc. etc.

If a game has to be 20 hours because otherwise the QA team cannot cope up with freeing it of bugs you either need more or more competant testers... Personnally if a game is only 20 hours because of the QA-team cannot handle more I would opt to sack them all... No, there are other reasons why NWN2 could be a 20 hours game Actually it would be more valid. Source was totally new. Electron is build upon Aurora, like Troika had an (very) early version of Source and had to adjust/clean it of bugs/memory leaks, add in the wanted graphical adjustments etc. themselves. Does the building of the engine compares to the building of the game. Does UT2K7 been in production as long as UE3... nope. But damn well they started building UT2K7 was FAR from finished and needed several adjustments. Would that mean all the early work done on rules/design/levelbuilding etc. would go to waste. I doubt it. And once again HL2/UT2K7 cannot really be compared to NWN2 since NWN2 HAD a basis. Last time this came up here on the forums somebody (dev) told us that that was only the graphical engine that got total revamp. Thus not the things like levelbuild, quest-building, AI etc. etc. etc. Really, do you think the leveldesigners or Chris Avallone would be working programming the toolset... You have programmers for that usually... the storywriters don't do it... (hell, I don't even wan't them to) EDIT: On the Electron stuff: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=38146&hl= EDIT2: (to make it even easier)

Before you enter the academy... And the files should be in a map called OVERRIDE (thus C:/program files/lucasarts/kotor2/override)

If you wan't a thousand HK clones play Star Wars Galaxies... Don't complain to me though if you totally hate it...

Ofcourse you can. If you make a map, fill it with quest and enemies and such and a programmer adds in a new shader for the map, would you really think all quest have to be re-added, enemies replaced, AI reconfigured. And maybe maybe that even has to be done sometimes... but that is the job of the QA deparment, not those individual creators to find out. In the meantime they can continue on either making new stuff or upgrading their already made stuff with these new thing. IF that has to be added in with the map/editor/code at all. If you go from creation outside areas on a different way (UT/UT2K4 style different) does that mean all the old outside areas have gone to waste? Don't think so... If it was the way you mentioned it nothing could be done gameplaywise untill FAR at the end of Beta... too bad usually all the gamecode/mechanics and stuff are in in the earliest ALPHA. Kotor's, infinity, unfinished versions of the NWN toolkit etc. The devs can get around with more difficult toolsets than the one that the user finnally gets and has to use. They REALLY don't have to wait till the final user-toolkit is finished before they can start doing there stuff. They might make adjustments as seen fit but first finalising the kit and then starting on the game...nah. And as the engine gets updated you can also adjust the campaign. There is REALLY no need to actually have the engine ready before starting the lvl/monster etc. design... If that was so explain to me why the UT2K7 devs can play their levels in UNTEXTURED, WIRE-FRAMED levels and when deemed "good to play" the actual engine-stuff is added (an engine BTW who keeps getting additions adjustments even if several dozens of devs already use it to make a game)???

Are games made for QA in the present day or for us costumers? Point not found...relevance not found... And look it ain't no RPG. Better is to actually use Vampire bloodlines, and that one made it longer than 20 hours of gameplay, nah? Basically I have never fully completed both Half-Lifes (hate them both) to tell anything about the time needed for it; but if HL2 is really shorter...could you give an explanation why that is? The original. As we all know Electron is the same engine but with the graphical engine upgraded. Since the underlying rules are still the same that shouldn't prevent OE from building up the game... And a friendlier to use toolset should how block devs from making the game itself from being bigger? Sure you can alter the toolset, but that wouldn't mean that at the same time the current couldn't be used for levelbuilding...