MaxQuest

Yeah. That's what makes chanters such awesome tanks. Unlike some classes (cough, looking at you fighter), they can tank while also bringing a lot of utility to their party.

Yeap. Indeed it might. Every time I casted a crowd-control power as (19,8,11,19,18,3) cipher, I felt that for that cast the might was wasted. While for every damaging ability, that I better had Dex over Int. (19,10,19,19,3,11) ranged cipher seems to fill the dedicated-dps role better. And probably even more so in 3.0, if powers will get higher costs. Played like ranged rogue, and with dmg amplifiers from soul whip, he can make a good use of war bow. (if the recovery time is substantially cut) Btw, do you know if cipher gains power from the dot part of Runner's Wounding Shot? - Update - Just tested it. Unfortunately it doesn't.

Ten times thanks for the answers! ) If it works.. imho it's one of the best abilities out there. You have 3 dps'ers and a cc'cipher? suddenly you have 4 dps'ers. Well, I just had a 3 INT cipher in mind

There are few abilities, whose descriptions are a bit confusing to me. Could someone clarify the following?: 1. Wounding Shot: a). is the dot duration increased by INT? (on gamepedia it is written that it is not. Here it is written that it is.) b). is the dot damage increased by "Aefyllath_Ues_Mith_Fyr" chant (+25% burning damage)? 2. Recall Agony: a). does it deal extra 30% of damage, after every damage appliance (while the debuff is on the target)? b). does it proc on dot ticks? c). does it work at all? 3. Combusting Wounds: a)."causes enemy wounds to ignite" - so it only applies to damage hits over 10 dmg (i.e. wounds like monk wounds)? Or it doesn't matter? What about dots? b). "5 damage over 20s" - does it mean 0.25 damage per second (for 20s)? or 0.75 damage every 3s? c). each tick's damage is checked against 1/4 of enemy's burning DR? I don't see it in log, could it be that tick damage is so small that only 20% of it passes through DR; and that value is rounded to zero? d). do these mini-burning-dots stack with themselves? e). will it generate recursive procs when used with recall agony? f). does it proc from pain link or flame shield? 4. Expose Vulnerabilities: a). do lashes and dots benefit from this DR reduction? 5. Ectopsychic_Echo: a). it's duration is not modified by intellect, right? ( doesn't mention base duration.)

Exactly. That's why I proposed to rename "speed increase" to "time decrease". Although this might sound like the same thing, it actually allows the player to make the right estimation of expected benefit (e.g. decreasing time by 50% is not the same as increasing speed by 50%). Not to mention that the bonuses are applied only to recovery part, and not the attack. Which can be confusing for casual/newcomer player. For example I had the feeling that something is not right. - Yes, from that point of view, I agree. That is a delay between actions. So it is not part of action. - On the other hand, as a player I am only interested in how many times my dps will increase if I will take those talents/buffs/enchants/etc. And that delay is part of what happens between two consecutive damage appliances. Part of what we could call "Full Action Cycle". You name it. As for negligence, it is negligent, unless someone wants increased precision and probably dual-wields fast weapons.

Checked that setup in-game: Arbalest with (20 dex, Swift Aim, Gunner) resulted in: 43 attack frames, 47 recovery, 74 reload (164 total frames) Arbalest with (10 dex and no buffs) resulted in: 52 attack frames, 75 recovery, 167 reload (294 total frames) So yeah, reloading speed was reduced to 44%. and Hold Wall with (20 dex, Swift Aim, Gunner) resulted in: 43 attack frames, 32 recovery, 74 reload (149 total frames) ------------------------------- @AndreaColombo So. I have paid close attention to the example you have provided, made around 20 extra tests, and now I can assert the following: - First of all you are right in saying that stacking in plain additive manner will not bring that setup to zero recovery. - Second: stacking bonuses in plain multiplicative manner, also doesn't help: - Third: the calculations you provided indeed do work. Yes, the formula seem to lack the aforementioned correlation with physics/reality (see 2nd spoiler). But it doesn't matter. Devs implemented it that way, and the tests confirm such behavior. It would make sense to rename all "increases Action Speed" to "reduces Recovery Time".

Heh, didn't know that speed enchants will stack. Decided to check it. They do: http://i.imgur.com/51qGK43.png ------------- @AndreaColombo, g2g at the moment, but will take a look later.

Hmm, I am pretty sure it was originally linking to: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MO3U4gv7VPQtfHwPNy_MKPZl_3wJow34QTARLH8ILLI/edit#gid=1848365110 Unless I am seeing things... (well, at least I am finally off 4 hours moderation delay, and can post-check my posts..) It seems that: If we consider 4-frame delay as part of "action": both speeds are equal. Damage being inflicted every 30 frames. If we don't: one-handed is sliiiightly slower (by 6%) (68/64 - 1) - one-handed: - 4-frames-delay -> 30 frames (main hand attack) -> 4 frames-delay-> 30 frames (main hand attack) - dual-wield: -4-frames-delay-> 30 frames (main hand attack -> 30 frames( off hand attack)) That' strange. Before going to take those tests, I have search the forum a little, and stumbled upon Kaylon's and Baki's posts, both mentioning that recovery stacking is additive. I had zero doubts when observed results did match the expected ones. The posts I refer to: - https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79407-ranged-attack-speed-buff-stacking/?p=1689982 - http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72272-combat-mechanics-attack-speed-recovery/?p=1604210 At the moment I am looking at the first post in this thread, where Kaylon has introduced the "categories". This opens a potential explanation: - all things I have tested, belong to different categories, and thus they stack additevely as he writes in p.4. But I suppose this requires further testing. Also there is one thing that puzzles me... In p4. he mentions that "Sure-Handed Ila Nocked Her Arrows with Speed", "Deleterious Alacrity of Motion" and "Gauntlets of Swiftness" do stack additevely. While in p3, it's written that they stack multiplicatively. P.S. I could make few more tests once I get home. Although I won't be able to test the things you call durgan refinements, since it seems there is no console command to enchant one's weapon. And being myself lvl 5 (on my first play-though ever, yeap ), I don't have access to enchanting yet. So it will take time. P.P.S. The reason I've went into math/optimization so early, is because.. Warchief Iklak has repeatedly handed my head to me on level 4. So I've made a conclusion that I need a stronger, min-maxed party. Could you post a link to, or quote his example? Also I need to mention that with additive bonuses it's often easier to get to 0 recovery. Baki also noticed that in the linked post. This happens because additive stacking is usually implemented in increasing-returns manner. Unlike in multiplicative approach. I agree. With one-handed weapon, one misses +20% attack speed from "Two-Weapon Style". But... it opens the possibility to math it-out for barbarians. monks and melee ciphers. There is also a party attack-speed buff incoming for Pallegina in 3.0. And.. I didn't yet do the math for the straight-up +80% spd one-handed vs +100% spd dual-wield damage. What if.. suddenly it's worth it?

When loading a save: 25-30s When moving to a different location: 12-15s

Indeed, those values are pretty close to those I've got. If I would stumble upon it before, I probably wouldn't run the tests. It was this document I've stumbled upon, which gave me sensation that some values are odd: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit?pli=1#gid=1264774515 ----------------------------- Btw (a bit unrelated but), do I understand it right that if you - attack with dual sabres, you get: 30 frames (att), 30 frames (rec), 30 frames (att), 30 frames (rec) - attack with one-handed sabre, it goes: 30 frames (att), 54 frames (rec) And by reducing recovery to zero, the character will attack one-handed with the same speed as dual-wielder, while also having +12 accuracy?

Well, isn't ranged paladin the most effective way to play the class? I mean, paladin requires high intellect for auras and exhortation durations; high might for FoD and Lay on Hands. Decent perception and hard hitting weapon, again to benefit FoD the most (and what hits harder than arquebuss/arbalest? the latter can also turn his targets prone and it will do it pretty often). Add there Sworn Enemy and Runner's Wounding Shot, and we get a solid mid-ranged DPS, which also brings heals and utility. Not to mention that putting paladin in the middle, makes it easier to cover whole party with auras, and also potentially avoid those disengagement attacks when there is need to run to LoH somebody. Min-maxed custom NPC, or Pallegina with those new abilities, could bring a lot to the party.

Thank you. It was. Regarding damage_stacking formula. You are right it's additive. Damn that tab wasn't meant to get into the public version as it was still a WiP. Was tired and it slipped away Fixed it. Regarding recovery speed: I double and triple checked. The frame values are precise. And from those values it really seems that the stacking is additive. Results being +/- 1 frame from the expected value.

It's a bit surprising that there is nowhere to be found up-to-date and accurate source of weapon speed frame-times. I have made few speed tests today. If anyone is interested, results can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ9tL1yRSekjFPUew5LS3-WRgpXuS76ZKHIuns1QWTY/edit#gid=0 P.S. Confirming that Swift Aim's reloading bonus overrides that of "Sure-Handed Ila Nocked Her Arrows with Speed" chant.

Attributes distribution looks a bit strange. If rp is your primal consideration, the build is perfectly fine. But if you would like to min/max a bit, then a few modifications could be made. ----- The ranged weapon and low CON/RES point out that you'll place your chanter into the backline. While relatively low might and the choice of hunting bow point out that the physical damage output won't be that stellar. (especially against high-DR enemies) And finally high PER/INT point out that you want to focus your chanter on debuffing your enemies / buffing allies. But.. you can do the same as a chanter-tank! While also freeing the dps-slot. Of course that's just imho. Now.. the tankish variants I am thinking are the following: A. Wild orlan -1 MIG, +2 PER, +1 RES | +1 INT MIG 3 CON 14 DEX 3 PER 20 INT 19 RES 19 A sturdy one, focused on: - debuffing chants, - paralizing invocations, and cc-scrolls. High PER/INT are perfect for that. Not to mention that those cone-invocations are easier to land being in front-line. B. Moon godlike +1 DEX, + 1 INT | +1 RES MIG 18 CON 15 DEX 4 PER 3 INT 19 RES 19 This one is focused on: - buffing chants, - summoning invocations, and healing-scrolls; since these do not require high accuracy, while healing and his racial effects are increased by might. On the next play-through will probably run with both of them. I like my tanks being useful beside being meat-shields P.S. Yes I have noticed that you wanted specifically archer. I was thinking of similar archetype. But after some consideration just gave-up... In my opinion ranged chanter requires too much attributes to be truly effective.