MoxyWoo

Huh, just loaded up my save with my monk again, and there is a recovery time, though I think I got about a second. Good catch, guess I'm getting old and didn't notice the little bar when I set up the spam and just let them go wild before. Went for max dex on the monk though Dex > Mig > Res > Per > Int > Con

I debated putting them further up, but the bonuses from Defender > Wary Defender is roughly the same as a PC Darcozzi paladin + Outworn buckler with everything else being equal, and they don't have retaliate like that build does and possibly always on 3 DR from their aura. Moon Monk has triple synergy for wounds and extreme dps spam the fighter can't bring out in prolonged fights. Basically, since those 2 tank types are "better" they're up a tier during Act 1. Though once again, the racial is making up ground for the Constant Recovery, a fighter has. Edit to add: For act 1, it tends to be about choke points for bad fights and teleporting shade mobs don't care about the engagement.

Fight changing mechanics. While most of the Tier 2/3 are "good" at their jobs. Tier 1 have effects that game change heavily for your party's favor. Tier 2 has a "gimmick" about as strong as Tier 1, but lack versatility. Tier 3+ are "effective" at their jobs, but may either need extreme optimization, more gear to get going, or similar requirements that place them in this Tier during Act 1.

I ran Zealous Focus off my Darcozzi because it had synergy for the accuracy of the Fires Talent, also ran Moon Godlike so DR wouldn't be as much of an issue. That said, if I wasn't bugged and it didn't effect the entire party I wouldn't bother with it. The Endurance is at least comparable to the priest armor of faith spell, and NO SPELLS STACK WITH AURAS, which means its really like... 2 tanks (maybe.. usually just a self buff) getting effected by endurance and actually care about the DR vs Blessing the entire group.. Flipping this around = non optimal as Zealous Focus doesn't hit the back row dps.

Introduction: The "tier" classification is from DnD Min/Max forums. Most classes are great after level 5 and gear choices from Defiance Bay, which also happens to coincide with much of Act 1. Which I think gives the first part of the game an inflated difficulty if you're not sure what you are facing or similar. Due to this, I ranked the classes for Act 1 (Hard difficulty) in the following manner. Tier 1: These classes can deal with all kinds of threats, not care about resources, or the resources they do have are game changers. Cipher, Wizard, Priest. Cipher (Use a spell every encounter, even for trash mobs and have a 40% dmg increase is amazing) -Even with reduced focus, their powers (spells) are great. They can deal decent damage with weapons when focus is out, but the start of combat where setup is key, options like Tenuous Grasp and Mental Binding give them a very effective way to turn the tide of battle. Wizard (Arcane assault spam and spells that game change) -Arcane Assault deals RAW damage which bypasses Damage Reduction completely. In Act 1, its all about the alpha strike or set up as gear choices are bad. This means among other things they have the best weapon via the 1st lvl Parasitic Staff and a max MIG wizard will deal crazy/chunky/fast damage with it from the 2nd row safely. Additionally, hitting Arcane Veil in tough fights means monsters will drop their agro right away from them due to how they target the "lowest" deflection, or they'll start to miss more. -They can also cast game changing spells like Slicken, Chill fog, and Bewildering Spectacle. They also get more synergy as they're added on. Not many monsters survive 4x (6x, or 8x) arcane assault spam done in roughly 3 seconds from proper wizards assuming you go for 2+ of them. Not to mention, the Slicken + Chill fog setup is really easy to do then. Priest (Lower end of Tier 1, they have support spells that do game change for the group but not as much damage) -I debated putting them in Tier 2 as a lot of their spells are great for setup, and buffs are always welcome. They have a nice per encounter +accuracy or even better, a per encounter weaken effect which is a super strong debuff. The only thing is, they don't get multiplicative benefits like the Cipher or Wizard above as only the highest debuff applies. Tier 2: While not as versatile as Tier 1, they do their job really well and have some cool spamming abilities or similar that can turn the tide in your favor. Moon Godlike Monk, Moon Godlike Darcozzi Paladini, Rogue, Druid. Moon Godlike Darcozzi Paladini with Fires Talent at lvl 2 (they get retaliation ridiculously early and target REFLEX with it so the act 1 shades are easy with them.). -You can get 3 to 4 ranks of your Faith/Conviction (make this your main PC to get these) during Act 1 easy enough, which equates to +8 saves. Additionally, they can use Outworn buckler which gives themselves and the party another +5. Self healing, tanky, and having retaliation that actually matters via Vulnerable attack talent means they are much stronger than any of their lvl 5 or less counterparts.... Sadly, this doesn't hold true after act 1 as other classes get better gear, or abilities. [WARNING: This class goes to Tier 3 or 4 easily unless you count solo play due to almost every other class bringing more later on]. Moon Godlike Monk (Torment's reach with Moon God-like means free healing and wounds to power them.) -People like the other races, and I won't say they're wrong but Moon felt good in the early game and as always, let's you dump CON for more points elsewhere. Triple synergy as they take damage = wounds = healing for the group = more damage they deal via Torment's reach. Rogue (alpha strike is still handy to take down one mob. They can enable their own sneak attacks if needed via crippling to take down another or two.) -Killing or whittling down a monster quickly is a good thing. Rogues do it consistently from ranged and much riskier/better in melee. Druid (spiritshift, despite the accuracy issues is a decent resource and they can game change via spells) -Still a caster, and without access to the +uses of spells later available to the wizards/priests via rings, they have spiritshift to rely on. The most annoying thing though? Melee is dangerous, and kinda clunky, which is why they're not in Tier 1 despite all the goodies they provide. Tier 3: They're good at their task, and though don't have game changing mechanics like the Tier 1 or Tier 2 classes, they're 'good' enough. Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter, Chanter Barbarian (Frenzy is amazing along with Carnage, they just take a little bit to mature and Fire God-like + retaliation isn't available early). -Fire Godlike synergy isn't really viable until 5+ because of 2 things. 1) The retaliation damage is piddling 2) Carnage accuracy is still pretty bad. Not to mention the usual gear choices. Its why the moon monk is so much better in the early game because they can provide healing, but a moon barbarian lacks that synergy from wounds to wanna tank. Ranger (They could be Tier 2 if not for the bugs, ranger's grief, and similar issues plaguing them. The bear tank does provide a great off tank for a single or 2 targets with resilient companion though, so I view them as versatile, just not 'great' until they get all their talents they want as build choices force them behind a rogue until 5+). -I'll also add that frighten available as a per encounter is pretty handy via Lion, and the increased run speed it has an animal companion can be useful for a pull/setup/tank/spank strategy. This said, with a proper front line it only prolonged battles which is a shame because on paper having a Frighten, 3 to 4 engagement slots due to pet having 2, and ranger have 1 to 2 via talents was cool...But again, engagement isn't that important in this game as some have noticed, and its more about positioning or choke points. [WARNING: This class will go to Tier 4 easily without pet micro due to the grief mechanics.] Fighter (Limited experience maining this one, from what I saw of Eder they could last forever but didn't have game changing mechanics). -While its easiest to have 1 main tank, and 1 off tank, and then 4 dps, I always debated how useful Eder was as a tank. Typically for hard fights, food or potions were available, and dps/CC was more the name of the game. The tough fights involved teleporters like shades or bad setups like being surrounded. This said, fighters just self healing when beat on is also mimicked by the Moon race, so my bias was always there that I could go 2 moon tanks of different classes and be fine. Chanter (Only placed down here due to their slow ramp up, overall, they are effective once the 18+ seconds are up.) -Sometimes, battles drag out because you're not sure of what you're doing in Act 1. Chanters are good when that happens. Of course, they're bad when you finish every fight within 21 seconds or less as 18 seconds + 2 second cast time + 1 second to actually use something/hits on screen made it kinda iffy. All this goes out the window if you use multiple chanters with Come Come Swift though as tanks... They just melt through with multiple stacking Damage unaffected by might.... though again, slow play. Tier 4: The job they have, they can be okay at with extreme optimization but most classes do it better or easier. In a bigger meta sense, why take them over the other classes? All others not mentioned. Paladins are weird, have stacking bugs, etc, so outside of the early retaliation, its hard to recommend them for me. Similarly, a non-moon Monk tends to go down a tier during the early game, but will get to the 2nd tier in the late game due to reactive healing not being as necessary (either your priest does it or you have draining items). Races and Tiers: Some races will give a tier modifier to certain classes. Wood elf is good for a ranged character of any sort. While Island Aumua is great for the quick switch ranger using guns for example in very specific builds. Moon Godlike let's you dump CON on just about any class. Pale elf is also good for the +Freeze DR vs Shade attacks, letting them tank without Bulwark or Fires as well. That said no race will bump a class up a tier in Act 1 easily, though wood elf/moon godlike comes pretty close, and Island Aumua is build specific and needs Act 2+ items. PotD and Tiers: There's actually not too much adjustment to me for PotD as things are more about previous knowledge, and where to go to get "good" for a class I noticed (or bypassing fights via stealth). Some people like the prolonged nature of the fights and inflated stats to actually need to wear armor, use food, traps, etc, but it usually became some weird corner game for tough fights so I guess its more like everyone should be a tank and make at least 3 tanks in a group or similar as effects don't land nearly as well, and fights take longer. Fighter and Chanter go up a tier because longer fights = better for them. Fighter in particularly is very handy due to constant recovery, and chanter loves the longer fights. Cipher borderlines Tier 2. They do need to drink potions and eat food like everyone else, but they do have 5 more accuracy for their spell effects landing which is nice, but CC and spell effects in general are harder to use due to duration issues I noticed, and focus gain being much tougher. Wizard doesn't fall too far behind because the Parastic staff is a +8 accuracy weapon and hits like a truck with the speed of a truck (so its like they have 28 acc vs 34 of even the best fighters with fine weapons) and lasts for a minute plus. And they still can target weak saves if needed, mostly reflex, and need to prep via potions or food just like everyone else. Priest provides nice synergy for accuracy issues as well as defense ones as usual. They can even use the seal traps with better accuracy via mechanics so don't move a tier. In fact they probably provide the most reliable CC at the beginning parts of the game due to this, but need prep and previous game knowledge to keep this status. Rangers go up a tier oddly. The bear pet is decent enough in the early game with good micro, as PotD is all about micro I noticed so can provide a good off-offtank in corridors or similar. They also have decent deflection and high accuracy via Vicious aim which is key. Rogue goes down a tier. They have to deal with deflection all the time, and despite reckless assault I just have a tough time managing them with everything else going on, or just annoyed they miss still. Again, they're effective, not game changing for Act 1. Everyone else remains the same, assuming they get a bit tankier, and similar stuff. Conclusion: After level 5 all classes get more powerful, or their game changing skills, or resources via potions and similar are readily available to anyone. Basically, the game becomes easier for any class or party setup. Finally, this is all my opinion after having played most of the classes through Act 1 without rushing through to get Defiance Bay/Dyr, etc items, so YMMV if you have previous knowledge of the game or didn't play a certain way. Hope you had a good read, and appreciate any feedback, comments or similar below.

Ranger works fine in melee I noticed, in fact, its probably easier to use than ranged due to how ranger can engage, and then the pet can flank or similar. Worst case if its built as an "offtank" you don't care the pet dies for stalker's link. Wounding Shot > Weapon Focus > Swift Aim > Swift/steady > Stalker's Link gives you +8 accuracy, possibly Frighten via Lion, 20% attack speed and one of the better scroll users due to better base accuracy. Unlike a rogue with all stats being equal, its 5 to 15 deflection up than them, and later on Cautious attack's penalty can be negated via Swift. Of course, after these levels, it all becomes the same for both classes to me as items are more readily available to build choices don't matter as much. Pets also have 2 engagement slots, and ranger can have up to 3, so they are actually as good as fighters for that mechanics (tho how worth it depends on your playstyle and willingness to let a pet tank). Edit to add: Rangers can safely dump INT as well as stunning shots is a long ways away in this build and higher PER/RES helps for tanking. Later on, Wounding shot + Combusting wounds + Blunderbuss is a pretty neat gimmick.

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77511-spell-speed-by-frame/ On dex ^. One of the reasons I like it so much more than other stats. And yes.. it doesn't effect reload time afaik... if you watch your party fire and use the same reload via guns... all of them are the same roughly despite say Durance having 9 dex vs your rogue having 20 dex, though my computer is old, so if Dex really effected it besides the fact my rogue started a little earlier, then it would be much more noticeable than virtually the same reload time. (then again my computer is pretty old, so hard to tell a lot of things I noticed.)

Nice post Climhazzard. Just wanted to add, DEX is always a cool one due to how it works shortening both animation and recovery time. RES is annoying to minimize in any class... interrupts are annoying to be hit by, and annoying to try and produce, so its best to usually dump PER/CON due to this. This usually leaves 3 max stats, and 1 stat at 15 to 16 if I remember right, which is good for any class mix.

I did this on my paladin so results may vary. PoE seems to pull from the following sources in terms of stacking things. -Weapon/Shield -Equipment (armor, helm, gloves, cloak, rings, boots) -Spells (this includes Zealous Auras. scrolls that mimic spells, and spellbinds that mimic spells) -Chants -Per encounter abilities like Holy Radiance -Talents -Class Talents -Food The highest from all categories will stack. For example I can use a priest with Inspiring Radiance (encounter) and Zealous Focus (spell) fine.

I think one consideration for the Ranger should be the RAW DoT of wounding shot. It bypasses all DR. It stacks on itself with Blunderbuss pellets, so can tick away from a 54 base max dmg (which is insanely high). The next in line of Arquebus, but its still 20ish away for the max. Sadly, it doesn't show up on the sheet or even the combat logs from my brief testing, so... there's not much proof except things melt when they get hit by it. Edit to add: Lion has faster movement for those wondering, its kinda fun to pull with it and use the ranger as a tank.

-delete-

I think the way to go for rangers is to use Wounding shot. The DoT effect on it is insane and no other class has it, even the Goldpact paladin faces issues with DR interaction where as ranger just has straight up RAW damage from it. Rogue sneak attack is powerful and shows chunkier numbers but does it completely bypass DR for the entire weapon damage? Nope. Its not 100% dmg increase, its more like 100% + DR*however many hits the rogue does. Ranger is a bit misleading, most of their numbers don't show up on the personal sheet, specifically, animal companion and the DoT effect. I know a lot of people hate them, but for the first part of the game when DPS is lacking, or offtanking might be needed, it all works. I actually think for the first part of the game they were meant to tank for their pets because stalker's link is MUCH more manageable if you are meleeing for your companion. Sagani actually makes one of the best off tanks (weird build, I know) because hatchet for deflection... and pet has 2 engagement slots by default. So.. you can have Sagani + Imutaak "engage" 2 + 1 to 3 = 3 to 5 engaged enemies while still giving off decent dps due to how Wounding shot works out for a tank person. The pet will die of course, but who cares... tanks weren't about dealing that much damage, and wounding shot is applied by then and ticking away on something.

I just want to add that I usually try to get some Resolve on any character due to how annoying interrupts can be. Get hit by an AoE and then jerk to a stop because enemies? Annoying. Trying to cast something and stop? Annoying. Trying to sound witty in dialogue and can't? Annoying.

Peddroelm posted this in the testing thread, but the DoT interaction seems to be the same for INT on a rogue. You actually get a bit more damage out of having lower INT basically unless you break like 22+ or something nutty with them vs 4. Debuff wise... rogue make things dead as the "best" debuff. Ranged rogue uses the initial alpha strike for the 2 second free sneak attack during combat usually, then uses their encounter like crippling strike. YMMV but you might get an extra shot or 2 due to high INT during sneak attack, but in practical play... the trash mobs don't need it and 7 seconds (?) vs 13 (? been awhile since I played my rogue) was a non issue as hard fights, every attack = sneak attack anyway due to CC.

Personally think at the lower levels, its all about accuracy so Weapon Focus: Whatever goes into 2nd lvl. Then you start to add in a class specific one usually. YMMV, but most classes get a freebie or nice something at 4th. Otherwise, Vulnerable attack is much better due to the flat bonus nature here. Then its the quality of life talent like Two handed, or Two weapon for a dps. No penalties, etc, at 6th. Finally at 8+ I'd take Savage attack. By this time, I have better weapons with accuracy so don't care.

Yeah, I always thought lvl 2 spells were about CC and self buffs. Basically, when things go wrong, you can hit +15 elemental DR, +50 health, and/or +30 deflect in less than 1.5 seconds. Or just confuse a monster in a group as an opener and let them fight among each other to thin them, then use a lvl 1 spell for damage or CC/dmg like chill fog.

I'm gonna say wizard because having run most of the classes up through act 2.5 aka the hardest parts of the game IMO, they get multiplicative in a way druids and ciphers can't even versus trash mobs. Arcane Assault 2/enc = RAW damage, proper wizards will deal ~20 dmg and ignore DR with this at lvl 1. It also spams extremely fast when cued up by shift click so the dps is through the roof, and daze is okay too. Stacking Aloth and a main PC mage, the above was a breeze not to mention I had enough game changing spells being a wizard... Slicken + Chillfog alpha is and always will be amazing. Also Arcane Assault hits REFLEX, which is huge for the early game or shades. Druid's spiritshift has some power, but as others have mentioned they sort of lose steam, and melee is dangerous or in most cases, it was just annoying for your 'caster' to have to run to a position or bump into other melee. Spell for spell, I felt like druid was about the same as wizard in terms of battle changing effects, but they had less durability on demand (oddly, arcane veil will make enemy AI just go for someone else if the backline gets hit) even tho technically, the forms have 8 DR... The gear loss later = fail as well. And no rings of wizardry = less casts. Cipher much like the wizards was good for trash encounters, but due to the recovery time of their powers or "average" casting for much of their effects, it felt slow paced next to my wizard play. YMMV, but cipher had even before 1.05 about 3 to 4 casts of the good stuff aka mental binding, but then a wizard was doing all the damage via chill fog or fan of flames for lots of monsters, and the other classes provided the dps since they were busy casting CC all the time without damage effects. They had a lot of either or with debuffs to me, rather than debuff + dmg like chill fog had, or aoe +dmg like crackling bolt was. Darcozzi Paladin (Moon) was probably my safest play which basically consisted of face tanking any of the hard encounters and letting their fireshield do all the work for the beginning hard parts. Later on every other class will beat this sorry one into the ground at 5+... so... yeah, for the "long" term, they're terribad. Interestingly though I could send them in for a chillfog, and due to their high saves they didn't care about the ally aoe and saved a cast of slicken due to the fact they could "engage" enemies. (Note, I didn't use +engagement on them and kept em far away).

Moar numbers (done in the attack speed sheet) Swift Aim 10 dex DR 0 / DR 12 / DR 20 -Warbow 13.51 / 3.42 / 2.7 -Hunting 13.65 / 2.73 / 2.73 +Might 20 (30%) + Penetrating (-5 DR) + Superb (45%) + 20 Dex (30 attack speed) -Warbow 34.25 / 24.81 / 14.02 -Hunting 34.6 / 22.01 / 9.52 +Dangerous Implements -Wand/Scepter 37 / 24.11 / 10.94 -Rod--------- 32.58 / 23.14 / 12.35 +Quickswitch vs 0 DR -Blunderbuss 84.09 / 122.71 = 206.8 -Arquebus 70.27 / 103.04 = 173.31 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Viscous Aim 10 dex DR 0 / DR 12 / DR 20 -Warbow 8.97 / 3.38 / 1.93 -Hunting 9.06 / 2.6 / 1.81 +Might 20 (30%) + Penetrating (-5 DR) + Superb (45%) + 20 Dex (30 attack speed) -Warbow 19.85 / 15.22 / 9.93 -Hunting 20.05 / 13.88 / 6.98 +Dangerous Implements (25%) -Wand/Scepter 20.98 / 14.81 / 7.75 -Rod-------- 18.47/ 13.84 / 8.55 +Quickswitch -Blunderbuss 126.46 / 113.1 = 239.56 -Arquebus 101.13 / 90.34 = 191.47 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *Math maybe bad at this point as I only used frames on the sheet:* Warbow 113 frames with swift aim = 16.5 avg dmg / 113 frames = .14 Pistol 104 +77 reload frames with swift aim = 31 avg dmg (5 DR put in) / 181 = .17 OR 104 + 15.4 (gunner + surehand ila) 119.4 frames = .25963 Means Pistol by frames will actually deal the most damage. On the spreadsheet though, with the numbers put in, you only get 9.5 dps at 20 DR so something is off for the guns at least. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cranked the numbers through the attack speed chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit?pli=1#gid=1264774515 Vicious Aim is obviously better for the Quickswitch, but part of that chart is experimental, so YMMV. Still technically ~160 avg dps. Swift Aim seems to have the most impact (from my wizard melee testing, it tends to be attack speed helps slower weapons a lot). Of special note: Wounding shot = crazy amount of DoT since each pellet its on damage effect (thanks Peddroelm for testing this.) aka, this is 150+ dmg over 10 seconds easily aka +15 dps for the ranger. I tried to plug in the numbers for Forgiveness Pistol, as its the same weapon group as Ruffian, but it broke down on me for the spreadsheet. If it was fixed, 2 Blunderbuss + Accurate Wounding Shot = DoT applies on with a +10 modifier... But unfortunately, only the hobble effect gets the +10 acc bonus. Swift Aim Gunner Talents: Ruffian > Marksman > Steady and Swift > Stalker's Link > Penetrating shot > Quick Switch > Gunner (possibly skip gunner or stalker's, sorry won't bother testing all this) Vicious Aim version requires one less of course, so can easily have all of the above minus Steady and Swift. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ TLDR: Swift aim, even with the slightly decreased alpha of Quick Switch has the most impact for a ranger's dps, assuming everything else is the same, but costs 1 more talent to make the gap a little closer. Wizards are like this too, they get insane attack speed modifiers so things with huge recovery like Estocs or 2 handers in general are awesome on them but they lack damage modifiers so the only time the dps is surpassed is with faster weapons around 90% dmg modifier. Hence why the rogue doing melee can crank out so much more than a ranger's shots, but even with warbow, the lack of attack speed from its base = less dps. Practical optimization wise, since the sheet broke down for guns, I'd probably try a Ruffian + 2 blunderbuss for the Wounding shot stacking and then end on a pistol with Island Aumua. Even if the sheet is off, 9.5 dps from the Pistol is comparable for 20 DR targets like warbow would be, and if the attack speed modifier off Forgiveness worked, it'd be even better.

Correct, you wouldn't use the Citzal's "pike" until level 9, but as needed you'd cast it for the AoE damage it provides. Progression by game is: (Hard difficulty here) Arquebus (Durance's) > Arbalest > Fine Pike > (Justice) > Lost Thayn's Reach (Copperlane - Defiance Bay) > Tall Grass > Tidefall Justice is a good greatsword at the time you get it and most of the other classes don't care for it... Only problem is, it has a weird spot as you're too squishy to actually melee, and if you hold off getting it, you probably have better options from Defiance or Dyrford by then. Might 18 Con 3 Dex 20 Per 3 Int 16 Res 18 Armor I used Eder's Saint armor once I went pike, before then it was just naked with the ranged. Might be because I'm old, but it forgives a lot of mistakes when playing due to second chance, and has a little more cold DR if you ever feel like stepping into your own chill fog for example (or by accident) which is handy. Later on Pallegina's armor with Hardened and the wondrous ring that has second chance will do the same. But Sanguine plate is the main thing, so its easy enough to jump from Saint to Sanguine. Consequently, around those levels you'll be using Tall Grass, so more of a second row dps who doesn't need as thick DR. The main synergy I liked was for trash encounters, you were up close with the pike so fan of flames was a good opener at the early levels. I might plug in Fleet Foot now that I think of it, because its just a nice quality of life talent for wizards when they need to position. Yeah, for dual wield, I think monk is probably the coolest looking with 2 sabres using Torment's Reach spam (very Wuxian style like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon to me), wizard just gets to walk (well run really fast) in plate and then just beat down with a giant energy weapon.

People with this number over 9k. Also... Goku would never use that word on anyone. Raditz maybe, but I'd like to think he'd be politically correct too and call Goku a lowly peasant, dumb-tail, or similar insults than this.

Sabres are great, good alpha with them for sure. They even get comparable good numbers when I cranked them vs higher DR 20 than stilettos, but not Estocs (assuming all talents are equal) when I did my wizard testing. So I figure Cipher will beat them out with the 40% dmg modifier wizards can't get. Anyway, won't bother cranking the numbers, my cipher play was just comparing my wizard play, hence why I stopped it. Plus, its actually quite difficult to get "good" sabres at the beginning unlike stiletto like Azureith or Osteriech (sp?), so would be a transition of gear just like this build transitions from Arcane Assault + Arbalest/Arquebus > Tidefall and Tall Grass.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit?pli=1#gid=1264774515 ^used this to crank it out. Specifically though, Ciphers get more +dmg modifiers so they can hit the magical ~90% mark easier like rogues can to make faster weapons viable from a dps standpoint.

Paladins are good for about 2 attacks via Flames. But the base damage of Fires of Darcozzi Palace (going retaliation mode) is only 10 Burn... That means its great for Act 1, and maybe some of Act 2, or specific "flammable" monsters, otherwise, expect to do minimum even with vulnerable attack + savage + scions (assuming its fixed). Arguably, the other paladin orders can be more offensive, but in practice the 10 accuracy from Inspiring Exhortation = more crits = the other orders don't really do as much as they rely solely on a 2/enc mechanic. Plus Burn DoT from Goldpact seems to check vs DR, Bleakwalker corrode is the same too, etc. Long story short.. Yes, they will fall into the same trap as fighters and with retaliation damage lowered along with Fires not being that great later, its only a matter of time. That said, up to lvl 6 or 7, its all good and they tend to be the hardest parts anyway.

Aloth can definitely pull it off. He has better stats geared to tanking oddly with his weird stat spread and lower might and higher con. Still, like all melee wizards, he needs time to get good, and most of the time its just a nice option to have Arcane Veil + Infuse health as the bare minimums to try and save himself. Yeah, I tried the dual stiletto/blunderbuss Cipher for about halfway through act 2, and debatable with the focus gains and start (1/4 focus) being a bit different. They don't have no recovery like wizards for their "buff" spells, though usually all of their spells (powers) provide double duty as a debuff. OTOH a wizard has no +dmg modifiers which is why fast weapons > slow weapons work for Cipher. Ran the numbers on the spreadsheet and basically, even with all the enchants and 28+ might, you barely out dps to what you get from an Estoc wielding wizard with no talents invested (this is just with Alacrity up). Basically since wizards rule supreme with attack speed modifier, they want to have slow chunky weapons vs the fast ones like rogue or cipher enjoy (sans the opener of blunderbuss). Now with the Lance swinging even faster, that means you get double duty out of attack speed which is hard to get out of other weapons. Think the break point was 90% weapon damage at 12 DR beat out Estoc by 2 dps or so. This was with vulnerable attack > two weapon fighting > alacrity > expose vulnerabilities all up. And also assumed 2 superb stilettos which is quite costly too. The main advantage in this build's case is Tidefall is already superb, letting you equip others with good weapons too and/or earlier getting if need be.

Dex speeds up animation and recovery.. does double duty basically. plenty of sources for damage for rogue but no attack speed. rogues are always vs deflection hence they wanna double accuracy via marksman and focus. not either or. other option for accuracy is to play with reckless and a pike or staff etc. more accuracy and semi safe and shadowing beyond is still good for escapes and perception will help deflect. YMMV but i like melee rogues more nowadays and they require more micro so they're intersting.