Cloris

Thanks for the links, those made for good reading! Cloris

Just one thing: did anybody else cheer when they heard: "Where's the body?" ... "Then he's not dead!" I did -- finally, somebody that has figured that out! Rarely do we get common sense out of Star Wars. Cloris (quotes are approximate)

Here's something from Kreia about the Jedi and love... (I found it by nosing around in the files, I've never been able to trigger it.) I thought this was very appropriate to this discussion. Cloris KreiaNotToLove.wav

But they don't avoid all emotion -- they seem to be pretty big on apprehension, righteous indignation, and arrogance. All the while they say that emotions lead to the dark side -- I guess they would know. I have to say that I'm with Atton on this one. Cloris

" Okay, I didn't mean to serve as an example, but there you go... Cloris

That just shows a lack of foresight -- to berate volunteers on their grammer while not looking to your own is, well, kind of silly. For one, I would rather the Restoration Project folks focus on their finals, lives, and then their project rather than fielding tripe such as this. Waste of time, indeed. Cloris

Woah, I disagree -- Padme was not the cause for Anakin's fall, and that is a very sexist thing to say. Anakin and his inablity to control his emotions caused his fall: this is shown in how he behaves with Padme, how he reacts to his mother's death, and in his willingness to follow Paplatine against his own better judgement. I think that it's funny that the strong, powerful, and schooled Jedi are seen as being incapable of handling such a common concept as love. Frankly, it is nothing more than a plot device to me, because it simply does not make sense any other way (and heaven knows that Lucas is fond of his plot hooks, logical or no). Cloris

I could go with that, except that what you said was as follows: Hence my reply, since you focused on Force users rather than just on Jedi. Funny that we're assuming that only the Jedi can give the focus needed for large amounts of power -- I don't think that we've really been lead to believe that. As a matter of fact, are we flat out told that many powerful Sith were never Jedi? So why would we believe that one must be a Jedi to have enough galactic "omph" to warrent such restrictions on their personal lives? I'm just curious... Cloris

Plano, That would work, except that not all Force users are Jedi, no? We know that even the Jedi turn away Force Sensetives if they cannot be trained (for whatever reason). So unless there was some way that the Jedi or Sith could make sure that no one but them could use the Force, then the logical conclusion is that it is not the ability to use the Force that necessitates withdrawl or absence of love. What do you think, if that made any sense? Cloris

I like your idea! I remember during one of the first times I played through the game, I was looking at some character, and I couldn't figure out what was wrong with him... it really started to bother me, and then I realized -- he was flabby! I hadn't noticed exactly how different the body types manifested in-game (and no, I have nothing against people with weight difficulties or differences, I was just confused). I dig voices more than abs, breasts, or whatnot; so imagine my disappointment when I found that the Exile didn't talk. But if she did, it would be fabulous to be able to pick the voice! Cloris

I like to use one silver blade, and a short cyan blade off-hand. If I get a bronze crystal, I use it in a double-bladed droid decimating saber. The off hand gets deflection parts and attribute-enhancing crystals while the silver one gets gobs of offensive components. Cloris

Teehee! I don't want to debate the Vulcan thing, although I think we could -- I just wanted to thank you for the laugh (even if I did almost spray Cup of Noodles all over my LCD). Cloris

People like her simply can't tolerate being laughed at, so consider it a counter-attack of sorts. A huge factual error like that is one more stab at her conservative credibility, more damage than any of us could do, to be sure. She's on Real Time with Bill Mahr frequently and his audience can't stand her. Space? Nah, for me it would be a straightjacket, an stun batton, and DVDs of Bill Hicks, Eddie Izzard, and Lewis Black. Pleasant dreams! Cloris

I am almost embarased to let this much of my geekiness show, but here it goes... If you think for a moment about what you wrote, you'd see the flaw in your logic, and this is where that WASP mentaility that I wrote about above comes into play: why would a dark-skinned Vulcan be bizaare? Hmmm, a harsh-sunned volcanic planet produce dark-skinned populations? No way! It would be far more unlikely that it would produce light-skinned people if you would take just a moment to think about it. Back to the topic: can one of you that have posted in oposition to the protrayal of alternative sexuality in video games further explain why you hold that position? We are all opinionated, that much is certain, and I do not seek to force anyone to change their mind, but I do seek a further understanding of that position and would appreciate help in that regard. Cloris

Thanks for the laugh, I needed that! Cloris

Agreed, but there seems to be a glut of folks that think how WASPs do or think a thing is how it is done or thought everywhere. I agree with what you said about bigoted consumers -- their money is just as green as anyone elses. Popular culture both reflects and influences popular behavior, though, and I think we are starting to see a bit more acceptance and significantly more tolerance regarding sexuality. I have spoken to a fair number of college classes regarding non-mainstream sexuality, and it is gratifying to see the students become less blindly outraged each passing year. To me, it seems ludicrious that with all the variations in human sexuality alone, combined with alien and droid aspects, that the only real intimacy we see in SW is still between two white heterosexuals -- that seems peculiar. I find your statement regarding strong female characters to be spot on! Too true, change is on the march, and everytime we do something as seemingly small as correct a misconception on a forum, or ask for better representation in our media, we are helping make that change happen in a very real and important way. Action, no matter how small, coupled with patience, produces peaceful results. Agreed. Stereotypes are important elements of storytelling; and I have no problem with going for the laugh. It is the repeated use of negative generalizations for the purpose of polluting popular opinion (the misconception quoted at the beginning of this thread is a good example) in order to maintain a stilted social order that must be guarded against at every turn. Oh, hell: now I sound like a bloody academic, even if my spelling skills are inadequate for the task! Kalfear, I recommend that you study the sociological parallels between Loving v Virginia and Lawerence v Texas, both U.S. Supreme Court cases in order to better understand that yes, Darth Butch is not only speculating wisely but is most likely correct. We have gone through this before, and no doubt will again. The process of equal rights can take upwards of a century to begin to achieve, but that is exactly what is happening. If you would like more information, please let me know and I will do my best to make it available to you but I fear we will soon be way off topic if it is continued here. I think I do -- and I am glad that we are both looking at someone else's point of view! What do you think of what I wrote above about intimacy in SW? Eru, I do not find the discussion of hate crime legislation to be germane to this thread, could you please explain how that relates to representation of alternative lifestyles in popular media such as video games? Perhaps I missed something... Exactly! Thank you for saying this better than I could have. This very discussion illustrates your point. I find this to be a very interesting discussion; encouraging and sometimes disturbing in its subtle bigotry but enlightening on all fronts. I suppose I should say this: I have studied sexuality, its social context and other related issues for over a decade and I hae spoken to groups ranging from the general public to students going into clinical fields to health and mental health professionals on this topic. So I find every related thread to be of interest! In any case, I say that so that it makes more sense when I say something like "see this case law for more information." It's kind of my thing, I'm not just mouthing off. Cloris

For Xbox, you cast it and then press down on the right thumbstick, thought it doesn't seem to work consistently. I don't know how to use it for PC... Cloris

I think that it is possible, but difficult. *sigh* I don't know for sure, as I aquired The Sims 2 and KOTOR2 the same week -- guess which one has had my attention since! Cloris

Teehee! More power to 'em, I say! Between Atton, Mical (it's the voice, I tell ya'!), Mira and Visas -- it's a buffett! Mira's got gumption, and Visas got that erie goth-girl thing down pat. Atton's a given, and I can't help but forgive the fact that the Di's face is too narrow near the chin for the teeth he was animated with because that voice as smooth silk sheets. Having a bad day, but feeling better after this, Cloris

I do think that the the violence and nudity agruments are simply a smokescreen for the struggle for social control. I think that's why it is so seemingly arbitrary. I'd write a longer post, but I agree with what I see here, and just can't think of much more to say than that. Too awake too early in the morning to be more verbose, Cloris

I thought that was incredibly funny! I almost dropped my controller laughing. Sure, we get the Twi'leck (?spelling) thing all the time, but in a story-verse of droids, well, I know that I had wondered... but I guess I'm just twisted that way. Cloris

I write this with as much self restraint as I can muster, I promise! The associatation of pedophilia with homosexuality has a long and tangled history. It is as association that has never been proven in any way -- if we discount those with political agendas and questionable research practices, which I do. However, as is the case with things that people want to believe, it lives on in spite of facts. I am not going to touch the child-murder or the pedophilia aspects of this thread, as I feel that they are erroneous in nature in relationship to the subject matter. It is my opinion that in any instance where the representation of any sexuality is appropriate, then the homosexuality is as appropriate as heterosexuality. To me, it is just that simple. 11XHooah asked about the innocent nature of Star Wars, and I have to counter by saying that SW is not innocent at all. We see betrayal, genocide, war, slavery, dishonesty, torture, and the obliteration of entire planets (that's just the films, folks). I firmly believe that a scene of two men or women in love would be well inside expectations set by these standards. I find it quite curious that it seems to be acceptable to show a represenation of a man marrying a women in secret, impregnating her and then later murdering said pregnant wife while following a path of a genocidal nature, but that two women kissing might not suite the innocent nature of the franchise. I mean no offense, 11XHooah, but I do find the logic to be somewhat odd. Taks denigrated the concept of romance or intimacy in role-playing games as a whole. I find that the addition of that sort of tension adds to my interest in the character, apparently in much the same way as it detracts from yours. That simply seems to be a case of to-each-their-own. Simply either don't persue such options or don't buy games with such options -- but unless you plan on soley supporting the entire industry, it would be wise to allow for preferences that are not your own. I greatly enjoyed Fable's comedic take on romantic life, and also the little-available option to be bisexual (and polyamorist, okay, technically polygamist -- but who's counting?). Finally!!! While most of the romances did not further the plot, you ended up with a place to stay, and a spouse that may or may not have a dowery and give you gifts if you treat them well and visit often. One romance was its own subplot which added a level of depth to other elements of the story. Even though most of the romance was comedic in nature it did indeed add to the game, but it could also be completely ignored by those that decided to do so. Enough of my ramblings, Cloris (edited for some spelling and syntax)

Aww, if you say so, maybe one is never to old to be a fangirl! Cloris

Teehee! I usually consider myself too old and cynical to be a "fangirl." Cloris