Cloris

Hey, I have a book on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its give and take relationship with lexiconography called Slayer Slang. I think you may enjoy it, if you do not have it already. My favorite is my Encarta World Dictionary, but I was too lazy to get up and go get it. Okay, I think we may have traversed into uber-geek ville, what do you think? Makes me wonder what a Jedi is supposed to do when stuck in a position like GO-TO's... True, and I've browsed through the site, but I always get sidetracked and end up reading for extended periods of time and forgetting what I was looking for in the first place! Hey, dewaybe2678, I just wanted to say thanks a bunch for starting such an interesting thread!!! Cloris

I agree -- or at least she's 'crazy like a fox.' But I don't think she's entirely hateful. She doesn't just set the Exile up to destroy her enemies -- Kreia essentially preps the Exile to save the galaxy, which incluedes killing Kreia. Thoughts? Kreia does believe the Exile is the Last of the (true) Jedi (whether or not they are active members of the order), I think, or at very least the last Jedi worth a damn. Mabye the Jedi Order is like the Mob or like being an alcoholic -- you never really leave, or it never really leaves you. *shrug* On a different note, I also think that she does love the exile, in her own way, just as Atris, Disciple, and Atton each love the Exile in their own way. Don't get me wrong, I don't like Kriea, but I think she is written with a lot of depth that happens to be more subtle than most of the characters in the SW universe and I think the writers deserve some credit for that. Cloris

Heya! I just wanted to say thanks for the best laughs I've had all day! Cloris

So, does that bring us back to Revan? Cloris

Nope! Peragus = Yummy Atton goodness! Especially once you can get the "Are you an angel?" routine... Cloris

As, the first Batman movie, what fun! This is where my fandom thing gets weird: I'm not really a SW fan. I thought Episodes 4-6 were okay, but not the spectalar thing that so many fans spend years and thousands of dollars collecting on. If I hadn't read a review of TSL saying "Hey, equal to or better role-playing than Fable," then I wouldn't have bought it. Course, I wouldn't have an Xbox if I hadn't gone through the nightmarish hell of having my tonsils removed last June, either. But there is no coincidence, right? :D True, you are probably within accepted usage -- I tend to be too specific with words, both written and spoken, for reasons too tiresome to go into here. As a child of modern times, I don't seem to consider people of the cloth to be "good" by default. Or if I ever did, I don't anymore. Pssst... (this may be boring, you have been warned) De Sade received his first lessons in lechery from his uncle, an abbe. I went to Merriam-Webster, shame on me: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...onastic&x=0&y=0 *laugh* Here's a fandom question: are the Jedi only sworn to protect the Republic, or are they also sworn to uphold its laws? Cloris

Malak and Kavar are dueling. Considering that the Jedi do not kill their prisoners, if Malak conceeds then can Kavar (in good consious as a member of the Jedi Order) kill Malak? That depends... okay, just kidding! Housework calls, more from me in a bit. I will look up monastic, though, because I don't think that it necessarily implies good or lack of it, it just relates to nuns, monks, or living like a monk or a nun. Thanks, Metadigital, for helping getting us back on track! Cloris

Sorry, can't do the quotes thing right now -- today I am Darth Sinus, Queen of Headaches! Bwaaahahaha!!! Metadigital: Falling Down is a great example! "The Lottery" works here too. "The Killing Joke" is a Batman graphic novel, detailing the making of the Joker from his own point of view. At one point, when he's torturing Gordon and his daughter, he tells Batman that the only difference between him and the rest of the world is "one bad day." I found it oddly appropriate to this discussion. :cool: Yeah, from all of this you might never guess that I'm a almost-middle-aged wife and mother, starting her own company and working on her degree, would ya'? I look just like any other fangirl/boy. Darth Flatus: "From Hell" is one of my favorites, I picked it up on a trip to the Museum of Words and Pictures -- if comics are your thing, then you have to go there someday! Frank Miller will always be my favorite though, and has been since the Dark Knight saga. See, told you I dig the anti-hero thing! Cloris PS: I thought that monastic had to do with monks, nuns, and/or simple living...

Let's see if I can reply without screwing up the whole quotes & quotes & quotes thing (one more quote and we'd have a gallon!). Okay, that isn't how I understand it to play out. Granted, I've only read the scripts (supposedly the uncut and shooting scripts, but how much can you trust what you see on the Internet?) and watched the plot and cut-scenes that made it into the licensed game. I suppose, then, that until the 19th we'll just have to say that we'll get back to one another after that (unless you've got some "in" with Lucas, and then you'd better spill, you!). Now that I think about it, I've removed most of my written reply because the is almost entirely a debate about Episode III at this point, which I have yet to view. I would, however, enjoy picking up the subject of Anakin and morality after said viewing, and would be perfectly content to return to our discussion of TSL or the hypothetical duel between Malak and Kavar. I would appreciate it, though, if you would kindly not imply that I do not believe in right or wrong. I do. And, if it is not oversharing to say so, after living through certain wrongs that I would not wish on the worst Sith Lord, I came to an important understanding about human beings: no matter how wicked their actions, almost no one ever believes that they are "the bad guy." Sometimes perspective is the only difference between hero and villian, between revolutionary freedom fighter and terrorist, between dangerous fundimentalist and deity-fearing church goer. Okay, that is perhaps a bit over-the-top for a video game discussion board... Cloris PS: Has anyone else here read "The Killing Joke?"

It is my understanding that relative morality involves the consideration of culture, circumstances or other similar functions in determining degrees of good and evil. I find that it's polar opposite, absolute morality, to be rather childish at best and biligerently ignorant at worst (the concept itself, not necessarily the people that claim to practice it). It is easy to say that killing someone is wrong, for example, but that doesn't take into account, say, shooting the man that's about to throttle your child, burn down your home, and rape your spouse. Most people are simply not comfortable with the fact that outside of divine justice (which I do not believe in -- in any way) that all standards of behavior codified by human beings are, by their very nature, relative. They are relative to our location, our culture, our time period, and our society. Two centuries ago, it was perfectly acceptable for a 12-13 year old girl (woman) to get married, and there was no scandal if the husband-to-be was three decades her elder or more. Well, we're still people, men are still men and women are still women, marriage still exists, and this is still the United States (that's where I am writing from anyway), what's changed? The relative point of view on marriage, and what is or is not considered acceptable. Jedipodo, can you give an example of absolute morality, accepted universally across nations, cultures and time periods? (I had to try to do this for a class, so I'm not asking you to do anything that I haven't or wouldn't try to do, I promise!). If I haven't bored you tears, that is! Cloris It is the perception of an act as deviant that makes it so, no action is by and of itself deviant.

Too true. Like this discussion -- I feel like I have suceeded because I am discussing a topic I find interesting. Someone else may not feel like they have suceeded unless they convert someone to their own point-of-view away from one that they find flawed. Cloris

*Contains spoilers!* Sorry, I thought that regarding this, I was clear that I was talking about Anakin's point of view. As I understand it, the scene that he walks in on is Mace standing over a downed Palpatine, preparing to kill him. Rather than simply attack Windu, Anakin reminds him of the Code, insisting that the Chancellor must stand trial if Mace is right but that the Jedi do not kill unarmed opponents. Mace blows him off rather than explain anything and proceeds to attack Anakin's mentor and friend, and so the boy fights Windu. How is that a reduction of the deed? I understand that this was totally engineered by Sidious, and that both Windu and Anakin were played hardcore -- but that's the bloody brilliance of it. All the Sith Lord had to do was count on them both to try to do "the right thing," and everything would fall into place. If I remember correctly, Paplatine doesn't reveal that he is Sidious, the Sith Lord until after Mace's attempt on his life when he declares all other Jedi to be enemies of the Republic and activates Order 66. From Mace's point of view, he was doing what was right; but so was Anakin, from his own point of view. Cloris

Teehee! Thanks! True, and I have been reading what you've written, Flatus, but it just doesn't ring true to me. Morality is all about relativism, and it doesn't get any more moral than the Jedi and the Sith. I'd like to know how you percieve these groups to be without moral implication, if you don't mind explaining. If debating the morality in SW leaves you cold, by all means feel free to ignore those of us that do enjoy the discussion, no offense could be taken. I am having a good time with all of this, and plan on continuing to do so until the talk dies down on its own. No offense meant or implied, but I don't understand why one would contribute to a thread that one doesn't enjoy or find to be of value. Cloris

I agree -- forgiveness measures the humanity and strength of the person forgiving, in my unasked-for opinion. It has little to do with the person being forgiven: repentance measures the commitment and character of the forgiven. I also believe that punishment is a poor substitute for justice. You're right, state-sanctioned torture would probably be the best parallel we can draw between the fictional Revan's state and our own experiences. The Jedis do what they believe is best, of course, but best for whom? Was it in Revan's best interest to implant her with a personality of their choosing. Or, since Revan was considered evil, was her interest not of any value? If the crux of life is the choice of good, evil, or somewhere in-between then isn't it the greatest wrong to eliminate (or in this case, negate) the capacity to make that choice for oneself? Your parallel between the Council's choices and current U.S. policy is creepy -- but it is creepy because it is close to home. When one sacrifices the tenants that comprise an identity of "the good guys" in order to win, it seems to me that one has already lost. Okay, now I'm just rambling... Cloris

I believe that, by default, when you discuss right and wrong then you must take point of view into account; to a large extent point of view is what determines right or wrong. Dark side or no, he defended his friend and the Code; in my opinion that was the right thing to do. Even the misguided can sometimes do the right thing... III will be a much more interesting movie thanks to this discussion. Thanks! Cloris

Sorry, I didn't mean to be a pain. " Cloris

Okay, now I'm going to get downright spoiler-ish... So, telling Windu that Palpatine should live and stand trial, and only striking at Windu when he continues his assault on his downed opponent WASN'T the right thing to do? I know that Windu had other info, and that he was working for the greater good, etc. However, from Anakin's point of view, Windu was not only violating the Code, but assassinating the boy's friend and patron. A very tricky situation, I am interested in your reply. Cloris

Agreed. A brilliant manuver on Sidious's part, I thought. If, you know, you're into evil and all that, anyway... *cough* That's kind of what I was getting at here: a well-meaning Jedi vs. an unarmed bad guy. In the above example, Anakin does exactly the *right* thing, and that's what's so killer about it all. Then you guys got into punishment vs. justice, and you lost me there. Punishment almost never equals justice, but we are led to believe that it does. Wow, it almost feels like an ethics classroom in here -- how did that happen? "Apathy is death..." Cloris

Not if the bad guy surrenders and the good guys don't kill prisoners. But if the Jedi only focused on the present, then they would have jumped right in the Mandalorian War, no? Here's my half-bakeed theory: the Jedi Council saw the coming of their Civil War and thought that they could prevent it by not entering the Mandalorian War. However, by not entering the war they caused the widening of the rift that culminated in the Civil War they were trying to prevent. Anyway... Vrook states pretty clearly that a Jedi is supposed to think about the consequences and ramifications of their actions. So does Atris, and when she does so she still considers herself to be a Jedi. In my example, I think that Kavar would allow Malak to conceed. That would be the Jedi thing to do, although it probably wouldn't be the smart thing to do. Cloris

They don't call her a wound, only Kreia and the Council do so. Kreia is the one that wants to destroy it -- and even she sees what this will mean and tries to stop herself by manuvering the Exile to end it. Cloris (spelling edit)

If we assume that this Jedi tenant of not killing prisoners allows for exceptions in cases of absolute evil, then Malak is still a tricky case, no? The fact that his is Sith isn't enough to consider: he was also Jedi, and therefore has proven himself capable of both great good and great evil. Consider that previous Jedi-turned-Sith have been redeemed and it gets even more murky! I had not considered these things when I picked Malak as an example, but now that I do, I am glad that I did (does that make sense?). I believe that if one chooses to be "the good guy" or Jedi, and adopt practices such as not killing prisoners, then one cannot make conditional exceptions and still be considered "the good guy." Not that I don't dig the cool anti-hero motif, I do, but that's not what we're looking at with the whole Jedi thing. Cloris

It's not bad, but it is certainly no KOTORII, in my opinion. Cloris

I really like asides: so what is the name/date of the battle you're referring to above? I am having fun chewing on all of this. It wouldn't make sense to believe that the Jedi had a specific rule in place for the Revan situation: thou shall not mind-rape thy near-death arch-nemisis and turn her into thy own sleeper agent. On the other hand, it seems a rather sneaky, underhanded, and (as they say) dark-sided thing to do. True, and I have noticed, though, that choosing to fight when there are peaceful ways to a solution doesn't necessarily garner DS points. I think that it should. What's your opinion? Cloris

Teehee! For me it's not the body that makes the hottie, it's the voice (part of why I like games with good voice-acting). Cloris

I didn't mean repentance, or ideological shift: just concession. I look forward to your response, this is interesting! Cloris