Jediphile

My condolances to his family and P&P role-players everywhere. While I have at times voiced critical responses to Mr. Gygax's statements of the past, that should not be taken as a sign of disrespect - one of the fathers of RPG is gone... May he rest in peace.

I love how you read a massively positive article and pull out only the minor gripe. Not the only one.

Quite. And I note this:

How do you know we haven't already?

If you don't mind exploiting bugs, you can move Atton behind the bar and use a blaster. The sisters seem unable to get behind the bar, and since they use melee weapons, you can just stand there and blast them away at will, since they can't reach you with their weapons. A bit boring, perhaps, but it should work if you're stuck. Oh, and while I know you won't get the opportunity after the fight, remember to return to the bar later to pick up the blades they drop. They're nice weapons.

I played it without any patches, and didn't encounter a single problem. Same here. Never patched TSL, but it finished it a number of times with different character builds and in different ways. Short version: If it runs unpatched on your system, then don't worry about it. Indeed, I've heard patching it brings up glitches at times and thus chose never to patch it myself.

Well, I can't blame anyone for being confused by TSL's plot on finishing the game for the first time, because it's told very badly due to all the cut content. Suffice it to say, that the plot actually does hang together well, if you replay key sections of the game and pay exceedingly close attention to what is specifically being said. The thing that is not being told so well is the Exile's special status. The Exile is a wound in the force. This is not a natural ability, but was caused by what the Exile experienced at Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian Wars. As for Traya, I don't agree that she intends to kill the force. She does, however, want to kill the WILL of the force. Some see it as the same and claim this would destroy all life, but we know that the force does not equal life, because if it did, how could life exist on Myrkr, where the Ysalamiri have the ability to "push back the force" and so disrupt force abilities? While Luke Skywalker lost his force abilities there, he was in no way otherwise harmed - he just lost the ability to call on the force. As Obi-Wan and Yoda would say, life creates the force, not the other way around. What Traya hates is that the force seems to have a will that dictates certain things to all living beings. Like Ahab in Melville's "Moby ****", she at war with "God". But how do you harm the force itself? Well, that's where the Exile comes in. The Exile is a wound in the force due his experiences on Malachor V. Remember that Revan set up Malachor V as a trap for both the Mandalorians and the Jedi. The Mandalorians were decimated, but the Jedi where brought to a point where they had to make a choice - either join Revan and fall to the dark side or die. That's what HK-47 is talking about, when mentions that Revan was "cleaning house". And note that the Exile alone made a third choice - the Exile was the only jedi who followed Revan and Malak to ever return and face trial by the Jedi Council. Why? Because the exile made a special choice. The exile forms force bonds very easily with others. This gives the exile a powerful ability, because he can connect easily with others through the force. But it also works the other way, and when the exile felt death and the dark side at Malachor V, the experience was so intense, that the exile instinctively cut his own connection to the force rather than choose either of the choices Revan had put before him - fall to the dark side or die. This is the reason the exile has no force connection during his exile and the beginning of the game. Kreia manages to infer that the masters cut the bond, but it was actually the exile himself, and Kreia knows it. Kreia is interested in the Exile because this gives him the ability to resist the will of the force. Morever, the exile can harm the force itself - when he resisted the fate to either die or turn to the dark side at Malachor V, he wounded the force rather than let it exert its will over him. The exile is oblivious and ignorant of all this until meeting with the masters again on Dantooine. The masters see a danger in the exile's ability. The exile has no force connection - he cut that on Malachor V. But he can access the force through his bonds with others, effectively using their force bonds to manipulate and use the force. As he does so, he "transmits" his pain and suffering through others, but he also kind of takes control of others. Note how some of the companions refer to "blinking out" for a moment during combat and blindly following the exile's chosen actions during a fight, especially for a light-sided character like Handmaiden, if the exile has taken a dark sided act. The masters fear this ability, but only that. They also see a connection between the exile and Nihilus' teachings. The masters don't know that it was Nihilus who attacked and devastated Katarr, but they do mention that when the felt the gathering of jedi die there, they felt something that they had only felt once before when the Exile returned to face trial by the jedi council after the Mandalorian Wars. There is a connection, and the masters fear that so much, that the opt to rather cut the exile from the force than risk letting this ability exist, since it could destroy all life (which is exactly what Nihilus represents, after all). Kreia then kills the masters, because they choose to destroy the exile's ability out of fear rather than study and learn from it. They made to same choice when they exiled her from the order, but since the exile is the proof that her teachings are valid, she will not permit that. Besides, she needs the exile's ability as her weapon in her war against the will of the force. This is also the reason Traya accepts death at the end of the game - she knows that only the exile, not herself, can ultimately fight the will of the force. But that is the exile's choice to make, and so she accepts death in her attempt to bring the exile closer to understanding her teachings and seeing things her way. Whatever else you choose to think about Traya, she is an idealist in the sense that she willingly sacrifices herself to further her cause and her teachings. She forces the exile to kill her to prove that point, in part so that her cause cannot be dismissed as a mere quest for power on her part. The exile has now learned all about her - Traya can teach him no more. The exile must now either choose to embrace or reject that cause, so Traya forces him to kill her to prove that she is serious in her dedication and determination. It was always the exile's choice in the end, and to give him the final push, Traya chooses self-sacrifice by dying at his hands. It's twisted, but it makes sense. And that the plot dares to do it is one of the things that makes TSL so great. You won't be seeing many Star Wars plots that dare take things that far. Concerning the exile's companions, the reason they are missing is that they went and confronted Traya on their own and got captured, at least in the cut content. http://team-gizka.org/2007-02-14.html However, depending on how you had played the game, there could be different confrontations among the companions, even ending in death. For example, Atton could fight Sion, Atton could attack Disciple, or Handmaiden could attack Visas, all with potentially permanent deaths for companions, which mirrors the Hanharr vs. Mira scene - if Mira dies in the fight (and that is indeed possible), then Mira is dead and not mentioned by Traya during her predictions at the end. The Trayus Academy was to have had a prison level that was also cut, and from which I would assume the captured companions supposedly could have been freed, although not to join the Exile, it seems. http://team-gizka.org/2005-04-18.html It's true that HK-47 was supposed to intervene in the Remote vs. G0-T0 scene. However, it was cut, presumably because the HK factory on Taris was also cut, which would have set the scene for the ending - if the Exile is dark sided, then G0-T0 successfully commands HK-47 to destroy the Remote, but if the Exile is light sided, then HK-47 resists G0-T0's commands and kills him instead. It is even more frustrating that this scene is missing, since it was later confirmed as official canon by the New Essential Guide to Droids, which mentions G0-T0's destruction at HK-47's hands on Malachor V. In the light side ending, Malachor V is destroyed because it's an entire planet steeped in the dark side that corrupts all life (as per Kreia's comments to the comatose exile on Dantooine). It is where Revan "fell" to the dark side. Since it corrupts all it touches, it can only be used for evil. Therefore the exile (if lightsided) chooses to destroy it by reactivating the Mass Shadow Generator again, so that its evil and its dark knowledge in the Trayus Academy cannot be used to destroy again. T3 is presumably missing from the endsequences because he is repairing the Ebon Hawk, so that the Exile can escape Malachor's destruction at the end (if lightsided). Mandalore is presumably missing because he did not go to Malachor V with the Exile. After all, he is gathering his clans, not seeking out Sith Lords. Bao-Dur is a special case, however. What was to happen with him is uncertain, but I hear rumors that he was to have been killed by the plot on M4-78. However, since that planet was also cut from the game, Bao-Dur fades into mists not to be heard from again. And if by "Revan's holocron" you mean the broken holocron found in the academy on Korriban, then yes, it does work if you set Revan to DS during the conversation with Atton at the beginning of the game. It only shows a holovid of dark sided Bastila, however, so it's not a major loss. For LS Revan you get to actually see Bastila and Carth meeting and talking after the Exile's talk with Carth on Taris. As for the Tomb on Korriban, it does not "prepare" you in ways of game stats, but because it helps the Exile confront some of his past. Note the two "dream" scenes where the exile is first recruited by Malak on Dantooine and then leads soldiers against the Mandalorians on Dxun. The represent elements of the Exile's troubled past that he must come to terms with to face his real problem, which is his experience at Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian Wars when he cut his connection to the force - that's the defining moment of the exile's existence and the source of his problem in the game, yet it is absent from the "dreams". Why? Because the exile has been in denial about it and suppressed his choice for a decade and need to confront his other choices of the past first. And note that the "present dream" is about the companions confronting Kreia and the exile choosing between them, which is indeed the situation that is set up after the meeting with the masters on Dantooine. It does hang together plotwise. It's even solid storytelling. It's just such a crying shame that it's all told so badly due to all the cut content.

This makes 4e sound like a cross between D&D and HeroQuest....

True. However, the problem with those observations is that Bioware IS working on a project with Lucasarts. Does anyone think that project is an original IP created by Bioware? Agreed.

I mean, what popular tabletop RPG isn't that true of? Cthulhu RPG for example. In old Vampires combat was (at least it seemed so) never the focus. I don't agree. Both games have rules specifically outside combat, yes, but the combat rules are still fairly extensive with lots of focus on special vampiric combat abilities in Vampire. As for Cthulhu, I've played far, far too much of that to agree. Yes, the majority of the game is investigation, but it's always toward killing/banishing/destroying/exorcising/whatever the great monster/evil god at the end, mostly because going into combat without extensive plans and preparation is more than fatal in Cthulhu. Yes, it has very simple combat rules and simplistic character creation (the pre-d20 version, I mean), but that was mostly because the characters die so fast that creating new ones had to be simple. Boy, I miss playing those games... D&D was originally based on war games played on boards, yes. I mean the creators were called "Tactical Studies Rules"... But the game grew beyond that into something more. The fact that 3e, and possibly 4e as well, adopts a "back to basics" approach is one of the main reasons why I dislike those "editions". You could argue it makes them true to the original games origin, but then D&D is the *original* RPG, too... And I tend to prefer role-playing games over roll-playing games and even hack 'n slash/dungeon crawl/board games. Not that that's a slight against those games - I just don't enjoy them. If I did, I'd probably prefer Hero Quest over Cthulhu or GURPS. Yeah, but so what? I mean, what popular tabletop RPG isn't that true of? Or consider some other spells usefulness in combat... How about 1e's Write spell. It was a spell used by a mage to enter spells in his spellbook if the rules would not normally allow it. How is that a combat spell? You could argue that allows the mage to learn more combat spells, but that's like saying a Fireball is a defensive spell, because it destroys the enemy. Or how about Identify or Enchant An Item in 2e? Yes, you can use Enchant An Item to create magic items, but the spell itself has no combat value, and Identify even less so, since it does not alter the item but only gives the player knowledge - a sword +2 is a sword +2 whether the person wielding it knows it or not, it's just a question of whether the GM or the player gets to do the calculation. Good Lord. I think someone made the distinction , very early, between spells that have direct application in combat and spells that have utility outside of combat that give the player a fighting advantage. I would certainly classify a spell that the mage uses to put spells into his spellbook as the perfect example of the latter. "Good lord", indeed....

Yeah, but so what? I mean, what popular tabletop RPG isn't that true of? Or consider some other spells usefulness in combat... How about 1e's Write spell. It was a spell used by a mage to enter spells in his spellbook if the rules would not normally allow it. How is that a combat spell? You could argue that allows the mage to learn more combat spells, but that's like saying a Fireball is a defensive spell, because it destroys the enemy. Or how about Identify or Enchant An Item in 2e? Yes, you can use Enchant An Item to create magic items, but the spell itself has no combat value, and Identify even less so, since it does not alter the item but only gives the player knowledge - a sword +2 is a sword +2 whether the person wielding it knows it or not, it's just a question of whether the GM or the player gets to do the calculation.

Actually, if understand the terms correctly, Obsidian is actually worse of than the modders, since they have a written contract with LA, meaning that they do only what LA tells them to do. So they can't do a mod even if they want to, even for free. Of course, they could do one on the side pretending to be modders, but if LA found out, it could hurt the relationship and so Obsidian's chance of being allowed to do KotOR3 like they've said several times they wanted to. I don't even think they can give Team Gizka or anyone else advice without risking LA's wrath. Of course, that's just conjecture on my part.

Exactly... sadly. http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=...p;postcount=283

IIRC, all the concept art of the exile was male, so yeah, that might be the reason right there.

As much as I like TSL, I'll pick KotOR as the better game. But only as the better game - TSL had far better plot IMHO. It's unfinished and hence not only unpolished but also told badly in places. I can't blame people for being miffed about the ending of TSL and going "WTF?", because frankly, I did too. I can't blame OE, however, since it was LA's choice to cut the deadline, which hurt the game by letting something things go unfinished (the GOTO vs. Remote scene anyone? Or how about vast majority of the companions just disappearing into thin air on Malachor V?) or explained only to a degree, where the plot would become apparent only after numerous replays or by digging into the dialog.tlk file of the game. TSL is still a great game, but it could have been so much better with just a little more work. It's a crying shame that LA wouldn't permit that.

This is indeed true. The Sith hunted the exile because they were exterminating the jedi, performing their own "jedi purge". When the jedi gathered on Katarr, and Nihilus then obliterated the planet, they all went into hiding. Thus the Sith thought the jedi were all gone, except the one jedi that was exiled from the order a decade before. However, they thought that because Atris staged it that way. Note that HK-47 (or is it the first HK-50 unit - I forget) reveals that the exile is specifically mentioned in the coreward databases. This is never touched upon again specifically in the game, but the cut content includes bits where Atris reveals that she planted that data for the Sith to find, so that the exile would be become a target for them in a plot to make the Sith reveal themselves. Not only that, Atris was to have been on Katarr herself, but instead leaked the location of the meeting in order to draw the Sith out, only Nihilus responded quicker and more decisively than she had expected. And so she set up the exile as the target next, when the other jedi masters went into hiding. Note that Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar have no idea that Atris is still alive in the game and actually think that she, too, was killed on Katarr.

Canon matters only in the greater perspective of Star Wars lore and history of the Expanded Universe in its entirety. Within the games it matters not in the slightest. For example, the exile always has an always will be male to me, when I play the games. Period. Nothing will change that (and if KotOR3 did, I would consider that discrimination, since Revan's gender was optional in TSL). However, if the exile appears in the KotOR comic book or is referred to by material set in a later time period, then the character will be female. Still, given how far LA has gone to dodge defining Revan's gender in published material, I doubt that will happen. After all, Revan might be male and light-sided at the end of KotOR, but that still doesn't tell us what he really looked like. Did he have long hair or any at all? Did he have a beard? What was his skincolour? Canon has not decided that, and so while Revan has appeared in the KotOR comic, he (or even she) has always been robed so that the character was unrecognizable, even when it comes to gender.

She tells the exile he is not a jedi, because he was cast out by the order. She then tells him that she is the last jedi...

Besides, while we might think they are so close and have so little left to fix on the mod, the other way to look at it is that they are now stuck with only those problems that have been really hard to fix. Putting the finishing touches on a mod as massive as TLSRP must be daunting in itself, I should think. Here's hoping you're still at it and haven't lost your stride, Team Gizka.

Because the Sith Lords of the game thinking that the Exile is the last jedi is the reason they are hunting him down, so that the jedi will be extinct.

Well, that could change, I guess... I mean, Bioware also said they would develop only their own IP, yet now they're working on something for LA... Besides, time and potential lack of money/jobs might make Bungie reconsider, couldn't it? Unless Microsoft holds a grudge, of course.

It's a fair question. After all, where does the balance lie? I mean, on the one hand, you might want a game that lets you play the character you can imagine (which none of the incarnations of D&D have done well so far...), but on the other hand, you also need to make the rules mean something - if someone wants cover more areas, then it has to cost somewhere. Otherwise it smells like the rules are catering to munchkinism rather than attempting any sort of balanced and fair play. The wizard/warrior combination is the extreme example, since those are exactly the two archetypes that are the furthest apart. Add to that how the basic principle of not just RPGs but, well, anything really is that you can either be decent at lots of things, or you can be really good at something while being terrible at something else. Most RPGs are built toward that, either by enforcing fixed archetypes (as in D&D) or by setting up rules that lets you excel at something only if you focus the development of the character exclusively toward that goal while sacrificing others (like 5th edition Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, or pretty much any of White Wolf's games). Those who say that 2e had problems in that regard are not wrong IMHO, which isn't to say that it couldn't be forced to not be wrong through houserules or similar (which I did IMC). It's not really fair to have an elven fighter/mage, who is almost a good a wizard as the human who chose to focus exclusively on that class while giving up the benefits of armor and weaponry. That's the exact reason I thought 3e multi-class rules were better than in 2e. They did not permit characters to convert if made under the old rules, however, and they also punished all the multi-class options about equally (not counting the "outside preferred racial multi-class combination" rules), which might be a bit over the top. I mean, I already put severe restrictions on the warrior/wizard combination in my 2e campaign (and might have had none for that reason), but a fighter/thief isn't quite as unbalancing, nor is the fighter/cleric, if you consider that there is already a paladin in the game... 4e seems to revert more towards 2e, however, which is also not the right idea IMHO. I've had players who wanted to do fighter/wizard combinations for the sake of basically having a character similar to the 3e arcane archer. If such a character were limited magic that affects fired arrows and similar as well as limiting his warrior abilities to the bow, that does not sound so bad. Then again, another player wanted a wizard/thief so he could enhance his thieving skills with magic spells. That may not sound so bad, but then again, how can I allow a combination that allows the multi-classed thief/mage to have better thieving skills that the single-classed thief who dedicated his development exclusively toward that class?

Does anybody like any ^ in general? I hear Microsoft does...

It's not their decision, but LA's. Bioware didn't want to do TSL, and have said they were not and would not develop KotOR3. Then again, they've also said they wanted to work only their own IP, and whatever they are doing for LA, it would seem to be an IP owned by LA, as that would be the only reason to collaborate on it. Obsidian, however, has stated repeatedly that they wanted to do KotOR3. If I understand Feargus Urquhart's comments correctly, then "being busy with something else" is not an issue. So it would seem to be because LA is holding back for whatever reason. My personal theory is that they are still embarrassed/in denial about who they fouled up TSL by forcing the deadline...

or maybe its done and they're just letting us sweat...laughing at us. As long as the project hasn't died, that's fine by me.