Jediphile

Ahem, and where's your proof about K3 being cancelled, hmm? http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/08/13/news_6104775.html http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/852/852342p1.html And just to make it clear. LA hired Bioware to develop KotOR1, then LA published it. Being succesful, LA wanted a sequel, but Bioware wouldn't do it and instead recommended Obsidian do it. The only "collaboration" between Bioware and Obsidian was that Obsidian got to use the graphics engine used in K1 for the sequel.

I agree more with you - Kreia sparked the force in the exile. That's the reason they share such a strong force bond that effects on one affect the other. It's only the beginning, though. The exile grows in power because he continues to create force bonds with all the force sensitives in the group and then "siphon" or "leech" force power from those. The exile grows in power because more and more people join the group whom he can than form force bonds with and draw power through. I picture the force as a great central hub from which all living things draw force or "energy" to various degrees - some beings have a very minor connection. Jedi (or Sith), however, have strong connections. But the exile has none, because he cut his force bond at Malachor V rather than fall to the dark side, so his connection is now lost - he can no longer draw force "energy" directly from the central hub. But he can still form force bonds and interact and control force power through those bonds. That the exile might be alone doesn't matter because distance is immaterial to the force - Yoda still feels Anakin's struggles through the force though he is very far away and Vodo-Siosk Bass felt Exar Kun's fall from an equal distance.

Well, that explains much... I suppose you're really asking which side we agree more with - Revan's choice to plunge the galaxy into war, split the jedi order and turn to the dark side to save the republic or the exile's choice to refuse the dark side. Personally I like neither, really, because they are both deeply troubled people with some severely unattractive character flaws. Exile's choice may seem better, because he at least refused to become the thing he hated, but as we see in TSL, his choice was to run and hide, which carries volumes of trouble in its wake that may be just as dangerous - especially Nihilus, who is apparently the direct result from the exile's choice given what the masters tell us. TSL is a story about how running away doesn't help, because eventually you'll still have to face your demons, and by ignoring them you make that confrontation harder and more dangerous. So is Revan better? Well, it may seem better that Revan is prepared to both make hard choices and deal with the consequences, but then Revan is able to do so only by refusing to hear those who suffer and sacrifice the innocent in an "the end justifies the means" or even "might is right" state of mind, which really isn't that much better IMHO. We can argue that Revan did it all because he saw the greater threat of the True Sith looming over the galaxy, but I've never agreed with Kreia that all that Revan did was by choices dictated by the circumstances. If it had been, then why didn't Revan use the Starforge to create an armada to fight the true Sith? Because once Revan became a sith, he stopped caring about the republic except as place to rule or take resources from. He may have chosen to fall for good intentions, but then that is just what the road to hell is paved with... So, do you prefer to the guy who sacrificed his soul to become an interstellar despot for the greater good or the guy who couldn't accept where his choices had taken him or what their consequences would be and so ran and hid for a decade instead? While I like both of the characters, neither of those sound very good. I suppose I'd like Revan a little more, though only because I can take Mission's position and claim that the character we see in the game is no longer the person who accepted turning to the dark side and kill the innocent. The exile cannot make that claim, and subjecting your past to the point of forgetting your choice and ignore its consequences is not very endearing in any event...

Citadel Station... or even Malachor V... Oh wait, I wasn't supposed to answer that, right? Well, never mind then - I'll shut up now

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I know what you mean, but I cannot in good conscience cast my vote for an unfinished game regardless of how much I like the plot. If for no other reason, I will always have to say that KotOR1 is the better game for that reason alone.

There are a number of points in the game when you're supposed to find either a part of a lightsaber or a full lightsaber, like after fights dictated by the plot (like Visas) or as part of a loot you're bound to find (like Vogga's storeroom or upon killing cannocks on Dxun). On those points you'll find lightsaber parts until you have enough to make one, and after that you'll find full lightsabers instead. So no, I wouldn't say they magically appear - the game just sort of acknowledges that you've got a lightsaber now and shouldn't find more parts.

No, it's not impossible. The thing is, there are two sorts of "items" for lightsabers: 1. "quest items" that you'll use to create your first lightsaber 2. parts that you can use to upgrade an existing lightsaber with at a workbench If you're a first time player, this can be confusing to distinguish between, but basically the game will allow you only to find the four (IIRC) items you need to create your first lightsaber - I don't recall what they are, but Bao-Dur can tell you anytime - and once you have them, you begin finding actual lightsabers instead. This can seem strange in light of the fact places like ring in the Mandalorian camp on Dxun allow you to use a lightsaber in a fight, even if you don't have one. The reason for that is that you can play the planets after Telos in any order you like, so if you choose Onderon/Dxun as one of the later ones (as I always do), you'll likely have your lightsaber (or perhaps several) by then.

I do. It was boring going through it again and watching how everything you did in K1 mattered zippo and was turned to ashes. Oh, and it was rehashed - always a no-no. And every bit of Malachor except for the plotted encounters sucked. Not because it looks bad, but because it's designed and plotted terribly, full of stupid storm beasts and batallions of noname, random sith lords... Except for Sion and Traya, it was a pointless, insulting hack-fest I hate Citadel Station but enjoy the rest of Telos, so that balances out for me. Never hated Peragus, however. A little dull and too many droids, but still better than Citadel Station in my book.

This is trufax. Christian Bale can be a good anything, really. I think Christian Bale would make a pretty good Carth. Or a pretty good Atton. Possibly even a pretty good Canderous. Or a pretty good Malak. A pretty good Bao-Dur, maybe. Oh! Or he could voice T-3! Hmm, given how much weight he could lose playing "The Machinist", I wonder if he could put enough on to play G0-T0...

That's total hogwash. The game was clunky because LA decided to cut two months off the already rediculously short development schedule some time after the project was half-way through development. Yes, stuff was not implemented well, but by that time the plot had long, long since been decided upon, or do you think a developer like Obsidian (or anyone else for that matter) begins writing the game without a plan for what sort of places, characters, fights, etc. is required by the plot beforehand? Nonsense. Of course the plot was set by then. But there are two things that must be considered here. 1. LA slashed two monts of the deadline. That meant lots of stuff couldn't be finished by the time the game was to be released, but you can blame neither the plot nor Obisidian for that, because it wasn't their decision - if LA says to put the game out for xmas (which was NOT the original intent), then what they say goes because they own Star Wars. Period. Obsidian have no say in that. They just get to decide how to make it happen. No, it wasn't pretty seeing the droid factory slashed along with the majority of endings for the companions or indeed the highly sad state Malachor V ended up in. But that's LA's choice for deciding to swing the axe on the deadline. Yes, it did mean some stuff wasn't explained as well as it should have been. But it does not change the plot because... 2. TSL is SUPPOSED to be open ended! It was always meant to be. It's an "Empire Strikes Back" sort of ending, not a "New Hope" or "Return of the Jedi" kind of ending. Now, I'd agree that with all the cut stuff, it looks very unpolished, but the plot is there and it's solid on it's own. Elements of the plot are unresolved because they were meant to be - KotOR3 was already in the planning stages, only it then too got axed. But again, that's LA's choice, not the fault of Obsidian's writing, which was far deeper, more original and interesting that Bioware's rehash of the original trilogy in the first game.

Agreed. But people do extreme things, reasonable or otherwise, when they feel their children are threatened. Even the idea of coming between a mother and her child is dangerous sitaution at best.

They didn't choose what gender the exile was canonically until well after the game was out. Indeed, while the game came out in december 2004, there was no official reference to the exile's gender until the New Essential Guide to Droids mentions the character as "a heroine", and that book was - according to Wookieepedia - released June 27, 2006. Personally, I've always felt the male exile made for better plot, both because Atris being in love with the male exile makes for a stronger case regarding Atris' fall with Handmaiden adding to it to form the classic love triangle, and because Sion's love for the exile seems totally out of the blue and highly uncompelling to me. I mean, he was only trying to hunt her down to get rid of the last jedi, hello! I don't mind Disciple as much as some people seem to. He clarifies a few things in the plot before they come clear, but most of the stuff he can tell you about that is learned from other characters and events anyway. The Force Sight bit with Visas was nice, but I don't see it as that special. For me it's mostly for plot reasons that I prefer the male exile. I should thank babydol for writing the above, however, since it means I'm not being entirely sexist when I prefer the male exile. I didn't think I was, but it's good to hear anyway. Besides, considering that all the promotional art for the game consistently shows us a male exile, you might think the developers thought of the exile as male. At least, that's always been my interpretation, but then I guess only Obsidian know that, and they can't say, since deciding gender in a Star Wars game is exclusively the right of LA. Still, I can't quiet escape the suspicion that the exile was declared female simply for the purpose of LA not appearing sexist, given that both Revan and Jaden Korr (from Jedi Academy) were declared officially male. To me that does not seem like a good basis for dediding the exile should be female. Besides, of the three, Jaden Korr makes better sense as female IMHO. Of course, you also need to consider all the cut content that was intended to be in the game. Atton's potential death scene is very sad, and I don't get the impression there is a corresponding scene for Handmaiden or Visas, except that you can sacrifice Visas to Nihilus, of course.

True, but I was replying to Dark Raven who did the same, and while I agree with you, I've taken flak in the past for saying stuff I would never have taken as a spoiler, so I prefer to err on the side of caution. After all, you can't go wrong if you use the spoiler tags, can you? Or do they seem annoying? I'd happily refrain from using them, but then I'm very aware that my defintion of what constitutes a spoiler differs from that of other people.

Yes, but However, I must say that this episode was clearly the best I've seen this year, because something clicked into place. Maybe I'm just slow for not seeing it before, but a penny dropped this episode.

Yes and yes. You can interact with both Disciple and Handmaiden regardless of gender. It's just that only one of them end up joining your party. I'm not absolutely certain what triggers it, but it seems to be whatever side of the force you lean towards (neutral taking the LS path) when you finally get the jedi masters to meet. Unlike KotOR1, there is no climactic part of the game, where you must make a conscious choice to be LS or DS. So yes, in a way you have to actually play the side you want to see come to pass in the endgame. It doesn't trigger until after you've found all the jedi masters, but obviously you're likely so extreme toward one side by then that it'll be difficult to change, though not impossible.

Given how Revan is constantly described as this great strategist and warlord, I'd assume him to be a guardian over a consular or guardian. The same could be said for the exile, "The General". Then again, even if they both began as guardians, that doesn't mean they went back to the class when they began rebuilding their powers and experience from scratch. Personally, though, I think canon will never deal with this. The jedi classes were created solely for the D20 RPG and never had much place in canon, where jedi were just jedi without particular distinction other than individual skills gained by each. I prefer it that way. The only indication of the class-structure sneaking into canon that I've seen is how all the jedi masters on Taris in the KotOR comic book except for Lucien are clearly consulars, but that can be associated closer to their abilities as seers rather than a defined class structure. Personally I prefer to think of the classes as pure game mechanics that have no place in canon. I mean, what's with the nonsense of lightsaber colours for each class? Luke went from a blue lightsaber to a green lightsaber, so does that mean he went from being a guardian to a consular? Nonsense. I just ignore it. Jedi can have whatever lightsaber colours they want and there are no class-distinctions between them IMHO. That was not my intent, and I'm sorry if it was taken as such. That statement merely puzzled me.

It's very much a matter of taste, though most people seem to think the male Exile has more or at least better developed romance options than the female exile. Then again, the female exile is canon, if that matters to you... Personally I like the male exile better (and I have completed the game with the female exile) because I feel the plot hangs together better for the male exile. Still, most of us seem to prefer the exile as whatever gender we are ourselves, so I should probably just recommend that. First of all, don't worry about balancing the jedi classes. The game is easy enough that you don't need them anyway, even if you set it to the highest difficulty, and... well... without giving anything away, it's possible to have a significant number of jedi in your party. Even if one turns on you, this will not cause problems. So feel free to choose whatever jedi class you like. Of course, you might then consider what combinations are the most powerful. TSL has prestige classes, which means you can choose a "super class" later in the game if you're strongly LS or DS. If you've played KotOR1, you'll probably have a preference in classes. You used to play scout/jedi guardian in K1, because I needed the scout's skills to be able to repair HK-47 and a few other things while need the guardian's combat ability. In TSL, however, you're always a jedi, and every class uses the same to-hit progression. But since skills are by far - and I do mean far - more important in TSL, I most definitely prefer the sentinel over the consular or guardian. If you begin with INT 14 and build it to 16 or above, you can have every single skill above 20 toward the end of the game, which is most definitely highly useful. For the prestige class, I prefer (if LS) the jedi master (sith lord if DS), because the special abilities are greater number of force powers seem better than then combat ability of the jedi weaponmaster (sith marauder if DS) or the skills and stealth ability of the jedi watchman (sith assassin if DS). That's entirely down to personal taste and min-maxing, though - no class or combination is "wrong" or unplayable. For skills, I recommend Demolition early in the game. It'll be useful to collect mines on Peragus, earning you some nifty xp. If you go with the sentinel, it won't be a class skill, so I'd recommend not putting points in it during character creation, but using your initial feat to make it class skill and then use all the skill points you get to up it on reaching level 2. Make Repair a class skill when you get another feat at level 3, so all skills are easy to build - you'll need it to repair your droids later in the game. But like I said, no skills are unimportant. Stealth and Treat Injury may not seem so important, and aren't early in the game, but all the others have significance early on, though mostly Demolitions, Persuade and - to a lesser degree - Computer Use, Awareness and Security (to open doors).

Actually, I'd say ignoring her own motivations and feelings is the real cause, which her Sith artifacts could then subsequently play on corrupt her over the years. Atris' greatest flaw is her utter refusal to acknowledge that she is neither infallible nor incorruptible, and she had that flaw in spades long before she ever saw any artifacts, Sith or otherwise. But yes, they are what eventually made her fall, and as a jedi master she should have known better. To keep such artifacts around while accusing the exile of giving in to the dark side by going to war is, as HK-50 would say, the highest form of hipocrisy.

Actually, I found most of the places in both games pretty forgettable, but if I had to pick one, it'd probably be Korriban. In both games. Not sure why exactly, but I suppose it's because it's such a mysterious, haunting place that still has plenty of mysteries left despite all the exposure. Besides, I didn't like most of the places in KotOR1. Taris was uncompelling, since it's blindly obvious that Carth and I are escaped republic soldiers, yet it's impossible to even make the sith soldiers suspicious of us... Dantooine was nice, but all those peaceful grasslands crawling with Kathhounds was overkill somehow. And we see Tatooine so much it's a reason for hating it onto itself. Yes, it was well done, but we see it SOO often. Kashyyyk was one of the better places, but had too much pointless running around for my taste, while Manaan was annoying due to the arrogant attitude of the Selkath. And Rakata Prime was an overgrown hack-fest. It had to be Korriban for those reasons alone. But I think I like Korriban even more in TSL, because the plot progression is more tense somehow. I'll admit, though, that it works as such only if you ignore the advice and visit the tomb before the academy, so that you end up running from Sion straight to blast off in the Ebon Hawk, as it's otherwise a bit "OMG!! Sion is after us, and we can't kill him!! Well, maybe we should go explore that dark cave for a few hours before we continue running screaming into the night..." But if you play it the other way, it works dramatically, and the visions in the tomb are among the best parts of TSL if you ask me. As for the rest of TSL, I didn't hate Peragus as much as some people do. Yes, there are too many bloody droids (!), but I actually enjoyed all the subsequent errand-running on Citadel Station even less. Note for the future - having the protagonists arrested for narrowly escaping death at the hands of the Sith is not fun when while they captured, you allow: 1. An assassin to infiltrate the authorities and make an attempt on their life. 2. Take all their gear away from then and force confrontations before they can get it back. 3. Let their impounded ship (and a droid crewmember) be stolen. 4. Other annoying stuff I've since repressed from memory (I know it's in there somewhere). The above left the party with nothing to do but run errands around the station until they can escape ona stolen shuttle to Telos, where - yes - the shuttle is promptly shot down... That said, Telos was more fun to explore, though maybe only because we heard Carth go on and on about it in K1. I like Nar Shaddaa plotwise, but it's a disgusting hive of scum and villany plagued by bugs Everybody hated me on Dantooine, and so I hated them back for treating me like dirt and for being a repeat of the first game. I didn't like Dxun and Onderon that much either, which might be partially because we're immediately shot down (again) and because they didn't feel like the places I knew from the original comic books. I mean, where they heck were the wild forests of Dxun and Onderon? Dxun looked more like jungle canyons to me, and we never left Iziz on Onderon. The civil war plot was cool, but most of the rest left me cold. The Onderonians not noticing an army of Mandalorians on Dxun didn't help the plot's credibility much either, I fear. And the less said about Malachor V the better...

There might have been an element of that, but that can neither be confirmed or denied from what we learn in the game (and the cut content), where Atris simply states that she did this to make the sith reveal themselves. She even leaked information of the jedi conclave on Katarr to the Sith and so caused the destruction of the planet that Nihilus wrought there, except that comment was cut from the game. Note, however, how the masters are surprised to hear that Atris is on Telos, if you mention it to them, since they thought she too had died on Katarr.

That would be a reasonable assumption. However, Bastila appears with the companions in the LS ending of KotOR regardless of Revan's gender... Exile is hunted instead of Bastila or the masters on the council because Atris arranged the Exile's return to the Republic and then leaked information about him to the Sith in order to make the Exile a target that the Sith would then try to kill, thus believing revealing themselves thinking there were no other jedi left to stand against them. Pay attention to what HK-47 tells the exile about reading about him in the coreward databases and how Atris admits having staged the exile's return and made him a target for the Sith when you finally confront her after meeting the masters.

One maddening thing about the KotOR games is that those jedi who seem to best embody the teachings of the jedi are those who have turned their back on the order. In KotOR it is Jolee. In TSL it seems somewhat true of both Zez-Kai Ell, Kreia and perhaps the Exile. Note how Bastila falls to the dark side exactly because she follows the code, thinking a strict adherence will make her a good little jedi and unable to be tainted by the dark side. Atris has had a similar story in TSL, because it is her refusal to deal with internal struggles that cause her downfall - it's something outside the jedi code and so she cannot deal with it and falls, thus proven Kreia's point. And Vrook... Well, if you look up "arrogant" in the dictionary, there should be a picture of Vrook next to the entry... Kavar is what I would call a more standard jedi in the order. He follows the code but also his convictions. But he's a strategist, not a philosopher. Zez-Kai Ell is, however, and that's why he says he is not a jedi. Because he sees something wrong with the jedi, and as a master, he therefore cannot count himself as a representative of what the jedi should be. It's pretty much the same with Jolee - the order felt there was extenuating circumstances in his case, but he could never forgive himself, and because they did not understand this, the order failed him and he left. Bastila may follow the rules of the jedi code, but Jolee lived the spirit of the code itself, rejecting the more orthodox interpretation. Which of them fared better overall in the final analysis of things? I count Zez-Kai Ell as a jedi in part because he confronts his right to the title - he doesn't take it for granted, and he is open enough to be humble about his own position and question the decisions of the council.