Jediphile

With lightsabers, starships, and a plot continued from a game that is then said not to exist. Uh-huh...

Overconfidence. He thought he could wield the dark side like a weapon and not be touched by it. But like Ulic before him and Luke later, he found it doesn't work that way. Yes, I know Kreia rationalises that Revan never fell, because his fall was a sacrifice, a choice, more than anything, but for one thing, she is scarcely an impartial source as Revan's proud master, and if Revan did it all just to save the Republic and never fell in any way, then why did he use his fleet to attack the Republic? I would agree he still did it all to save the Republic from the true Sith, but the dark side of the force has a tendency to twist the goals of those it lures to it. In Revan's case it was by lure him to think that he could only save the Republic by defeating it and then building it into a stronger entity. In doing so it made him harm the very thing he started out trying to protect. Not sure all the above applies, though. Revan is a good swoop racer depending on how you play him in K1, and he is only a good technician if you build those skills too. He may been HK-47's creator, but I'm less certain he actually built the unit or had someone else built it for him. Somehow I can't picture Revan setting aside time to built a new droid from scratch while he is leading a war effort with the Republic's future hanging in the balance. I also don't think we know he's that great a lightsaber duelist. He killed Yusanis and Mandalore, sure, but they weren't jedi or sith and do not wield the force like Revan did. As for finding the Starforge and learning of the true Sith, the latter definitely was due to him going to the Trayus Academy on Malachor V, and maybe the former is too. By going there, Revan gained access to ancient lore long forgotten even by the sith. An unfair advantage, perhaps, but then it cost him enough, since that is where he fell to the dark side. Regardless, I don't see this makes him smarter than everybody else. If we know anything, then it is that Revan must be charismatic to be able to entice so many jedi to his cause that he split the order in defiance of the council, and that he must be a good strategist because he is so admired as such by the Mandalorians. And I'll grant him some elements of wisdom too, since he was insightful enough to resist using the Starforge without limitation and so become a slave to it. But otherwise I don't see Revan as that incredible. Lots of people have a take on Revan that to me seems vastly exaggerated to the point of Revan being a virtually invincible, unstoppable, omniscient, omnipotent force god. Given that these people all play Revan in first game, that smells unhealthily like a bad case of Narcissus to me Don't get me wrong. I like Revan, and I enjoyed playing him. I think he is an excellent strategist and charismatic leader, who is probably also one of the powerful force-users of his era. But that's as far as it goes for me. How many other times were he attacked that we know of?

Rehashed stories won't continue to sell games. The plot with the amnesiac who must discover a dark past is old to say the least. I'll accept it for Bourne Identity, because - hey - that's what the Bourne Identity is, but in other instances it's very old hat. Note: There is no SecureRom issue anymore, is there? I thought Bioware dropped that idea after exceedingly negative feedback. Unstable? I haven't played NWN2, but in TSL's case I'll chalk up to LA pushing the deadline and publishing a game that is unfinished in my book. I'd call it stable. It crashes and has bugs at points, yes, but then again, what game doesn't? Indeed, that Obsidian was able to finish TSL and make it workable in about a year is a marvel of an achievement. As for the graphics, I honestly don't care that much. Nicer graphics would be, well, nice, but it's not that important to me. Besides, since LA will always be the publisher of a Star Wars game, they could just cash out for a nice graphics engine, if it's really that important. I disagree. TSL left a big plot hanging. It was deliberate and would have worked, were it not for all the cut content, but still... we need closure to that. Exploring consequences of choices would be good, though. The best option there is probably Revan's fall, since it took place before the first game outside the player's control and so is a fact regardless of choices. If the plot takes us on a guided tour of how Revan's choices are the reason for the Republic's seemingly inevitable demise at the hands of the True Sith and why, for example, that would be pretty good, if you ask me.

I suppose the point is that redemption is a lasting dedication - Revan must strive for the rest of his life to repay for his evil deeds, as the debt can never be fully repaid. It is his dedication to this goal and accepting a life of servitude to the greater good that washes him of his sins. But he never reaches a point at which he has done enough and is let "off the hook". At least, that's what I see in his redemption.

The link I pointed to has been mentioned several times in these threads, and not by me the first time around. I repost it because this persistent KotOR MMO rumor keeps turning up even though LA has denied it. One word of clarification, though. We don't know what LA and Bioware are working on, not even whether it's an MMO or not. All we know is that it's not related to KotOR. That it's Star Wars and an MMO is my own speculation. It may not be either. I sincerely doubt it's a new, original intellectual property, as I don't see why would LA be involved if it were, but for all we know so far it could be, remote though that possibility may seem. But even if it's a franchise owned by LA, it need not be Star Wars.... It could be Indiana Jones. Or Willow. Or Howard the Duck. Or Zak McKracken. Or Monkey Island. Or Grim Fandango. Or... you get the picture.

Then why did he use his fleet created with the Starforge to wage war on the Republic instead of using it against the true Sith? Your interpretation of Revan is not invalid, but that's just the point - it's an interpretation. And Revan is a hero or a villain depending on how the player chooses look at him and consequently play him... or her.

Sony's contract is up next year. If LA doesn't want to continue it, then that's it. They own Star Wars and can do what they like with it, as long as it doesn't violate contracts they've signed. If LA don't want to extend the contract with Sony, then I don't see that there is really anything but timing to prevent them from saying so and what will happen next instead. And note that while LA has said the project with Bioware has nothing to do with KotOR, they have not said it has nothing to do with Star Wars... And incidentally, the Star Wars live-action tv-series is also set to premiere next year Bioware is not working on a KotOR MMO, according to LA. My suspicion is that the LA-Bioware collaboration is actually a Star Wars MMO set between Episodes III and IV to cash in on the live action tv series. KotOR is a fairly small franchise within the franchise. It has a dedicated fanbase, but not a particularly numerous one. LA has a habit of not releasing "competing" products, so I doubt they'd launch two Star Wars-based MMOs. If they align the new MMO with the live-action tv show, they can probably cash in a lot more than they could with a KotOR MMO, which will get a mixed reception from the KotOR fanbase at best.

Agreed! Why would they even go there? Maybe, what with everyone being fired and all, they'll have to start from scratch. Again. This is the same source that we heard the other day which attributed a KotOR MMO to a collaboration between LA and Bioware. Hence I don't believe it, since LA has already denied that. Yes, they are working on something with Bioware, but it has nothing to do with KotOR. http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/852/852342p1.html

The articles are old, yes. But unfortunately it doesn't change anything. A big part of the problem lies with the writers' strike, because the episodes we're seeing now are those they shot before it struck in november, at which point a portion of the crew was laid off or suspended, and there was fear the last episodes would never be shot and show would never be finished. Under that threat, I'm relieved the show will at the very least be finished, even if I have have to wait half a year for that to happen, though that - of course - still sucks... See Ron Moore's blog entry in november for info on this: http://www.rondmoore.com/Site/Blog/Entries...tica_wraps.html

Sounds about right Alas, so it would seem... http://www.aintitcool.com/node/33862 Well, not a full year, just until febuary 2009, it would appear. Still seems like an awfully long time to me.

IIRC, the current fourth season is going to be last one with 22 episodes. However, they did not get to shoot them all before the writers' strike, and there was some concern they might not be able to finish them all. Not sure if that is settled. http://www.variety.com/article/VR111796608...mp;cs=1&p=0

If that's to be the goal, then I'd rather have them both killed by a pack of angry gizka just to prove that their alleged illustriousness means nothing when it comes to serving the plot... Or have them be captured and incapacitated by a bunch of pathetic, useless teddybears. Oh wait...

You must keep a scrap book with all the speeches in the game... Just Kidding. Thanks. I simply have the KotOR2 dialog.tlk file handy, since it has all dialogue in the game in it. And I've argued these passages many times now. Well, the council is blinded to the truth behind the exile's wound, because they don't want to acknowledge the consequence or, more to the point, their own ignorance or flawed choices of the past - to do so would redeem Kreia's teachings to a point and force them to admit their own flawed ways, and they are too arrogant to do that. However, there is a connection between Nihilus and the exile, and Kreia used the wounds the represented in the force to wage her war against its will.

The story of Revan's fall and the motives behind it something we don't know a lot about, probably because the developers wanted to the leave the reasons with the player. The only thing I've seen that sheds a bit of light upon it are the KotOR2 Chronicles, which are considered canon unless they contradict with other canon material, as I understand it. So does Revan turn to evil because he is twisted by Malachor V and has no other choice if he wants to live? Interestingly, it is the same choice he forces upon the jedi during the Battle of Malachor V later. But of course, it can also be interpreted that while Revan had to give up his morality and benevolence (assuming he had any), he was able to hold onto goals like protecting the republic from the Mandalorians and the true Sith. Regardless, the passage does seem to me to cast doubt on just how "voluntary" Revan's fall was. Maybe the KotOR comic book will shed more light on this, though I doubt it. Luke did indeed turn to the DS. It took Leia throwing her own life (and that of her unborn child) on the line, before Luke could reach a point where he could break away. Getting close to the emperor's clones was the intent behind his apparent choice to fall to the DS, certainly, but - like Ulic - he could not pretend to wield the DS without being affected by it, and it took Leia risking everything to bring him back to the LS.

What? There wouldn't be KotOR4 threads?

I laughed so hard at that bit - Moore really is messing with us And of course, we're now left wondering whether D'Anna was overstating her point by suggesting something that is not true or something that is Lots of good points this time. It finally reached the climax that has been evolving for a number of episodes with nice eye-candy for those who want the big space battles. That should quell the crowd wanting "bang for their bucks" for a while. Of course, the episode was told un-chronologically compared to the last episode, but I actually expected that since it worked dramatically that Galactica could find only the aftermath of the battle in the last episode. The timetable does seem to suggest a bit of a plothole, though - last episode was all about what the fleet did when Roslin and the cylons were missing. Galactica jumped to the hub and saw the aftermath, then jumped back, had some plots evolving, then left Adama behind. In this episode we're told that after the battle the basestar jumps straight to the fleet as fast as possible and finds Adama. But that doesn't seem to add up... We know the cylons have better jump-capability, so how can Galactica jump to the battlesite AFTER the basestar has left, jump back, have lots of stuff going on, leave with the fleet, and only after all that does the basestar find its way to where the fleet was? I would have expected the basestar spending time repairing the jump system or hiding from pursuing basestars or some such, but nope, none of that... Smells like plothole to me. Maybe I missed something... There was more here than the predictable battle, though. I was noteworthy seeing that the basestar jumped away not because the hybrid was in shock, but because she realised Natalie's death. That the cylons did not turn on the humans in anger undermines both Roslin's attempts to justify humanity's survival, given that she immediately plots against the cylons by preventing them access to D'Anna. Baltar's confession was also surprising. Naturally it had to come out sooner or later, but I like how he confession was used to illustrate how cold-hearted and cynical Roslin has become, even to the point of her realising it herself and giving her pause. I suspect we'll see a relationship between Adama and Roslin now, since they've both cast off their duties as leaders and are now free to admit to their feelings. Indeed, Adama already did, when he told Apollo he would stay behind because he couldn't live without Roslin. I guess all of the "love somebody" talk suggests the same for Roslin in that she will finally let someone into her heart. Fine by me, as long as it doesn't get too mushy.

Assuming that is the case, why do the masters insist on cutting the exile off from the force, regardless of whether he follows the light or dark side? In fact, they argue quite the contrary. The following is spoken to the LS exile. "In you, we saw the end of the Force. Yes... you can feel the Force, but you cannot feel yourself. You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them. It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force Sensitives. They are symptomatic of the wound in the Force. You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force.Within you, we see something worse than merely the teachings of the Sith. What you carry may mean the death of the Force... and the death of the Jedi. So you think. It is not the strength of a Jedi you feel. He's right. It's... all the death you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger. You're like Malachor... it's in you, it's what you are now. You must have noticed as you've fought across all these planets, killing hundreds - only to become more and more powerful. Why do you think that was?But what's worse, is that bonding you have - it hasn't gone away. It's gotten stronger, and the more attachments you form, the more you draw others to you.And that is why you are a threat to us all.What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained such Jedi to consume and kill? For you, Malachor was that crucible. What's worse, is these Sith that we face... I fear that they have learned the lesson of Malachor all too well. It is what allows them to prey on Force users, to become stronger when Force Sensitives are near. Somehow, they have learned their hunger from you. And so you have brought about the end of the Jedi, and perhaps all the knowledge of the Force."

I think basing it off the established canon can make things a little easier for the writers, since they now only have one story to account for, not several. Nah, it can be done. Both The Architect, myself and others have written speculative K3 plots that took this into account, and if we can do it, then certainly professional writers can as well. Might require some straining in places, but that mostly have to do with gender and appearance and so would be a problem anyway. Besides, Revan's gender and alignment remain optional in TSL, so that you could make Revan female and/or dark sided if you wanted. If you don't get the same option for exile in the next game, it will taste like gender bias and alienate potential players. To some people Revan and/or exile will always be dark sided. To me the exile will always be LS male. Getting his memories back does not make him different as a matter of course - it depends on what he decides to become when confronted with these memories. Indeed, isn't that the choice Revan made back in K1? Embrace the dark side again and reclaim his title or remain on the LS? Sure, some of Revan's choices are a result of those memories, but then we already know that those are the reason he left to fight the true Sith. That confrontation could have changed Revan a lot in the four years he has already been out there when TSL begins, though. No established canon? What if I didn't make all of my party members Jedi? Then they were trained after the exile left - they were force sensitive and had the potential whether you built it in your game or not. No, whatever K3 becomes, it must have T3 and HK-47 in there. They are the R2 and 3PO of KotOR, the chroniclers of the story, if you will. I'd leave Canderous and Carth as NPCs you'll meet, but not companions. And they should be important with Carth as the leader of the Republic fleet and Canderous leading the Mandalorians. So what if Carth is dead - he just gets replaced by his "understudy" Cede like he was in TSL (though with less dialogue and cutscenes). As for Bastila, I'd make her a pivotal character - she is the link to Revan through their mutual bond.

Thanks

It's speculative. While especially G0T0 and Disciple tell us there might have been ulterior motives for the path Revan chose, it is still just speculation. It is just as easy to suggest that Revan saw the threat of the true Sith and vowed to stop it, but was corrupted by the compromises he made to attain that goal, or even that he saw the true Sith simply as a threat to the empire he wanted to establish. I would equally well argue that he used the threat of the Mandalorians as a convenient excuse to split the jedi order so he could form the basis of his own army by exploiting the dissent between the council who wanted to wait and the republic who wanted to fight and between the council and the youger jedi who wanted to join the struggle. If Revan was evil all along, then what he did is a good way to "devide and conquer" because he caused dissent both between the jedi order and the Republic as well as between the jedi masters and their students. Since I always choose the LS ending for Revan in K1, I don't see Revan that way myself, but the point is you can make the argument just as well as any other. My own take is that Revan wanted to protect the Republic from the Mandalorians, then realised the threat of the true Sith and vowed to stop it for the sake of the greater good, but the dark side then corrupted him as he compromised his own ideals in the pursuit of that greater good, and by the time the Mandalorians were defeated, he no longer believed the Republic deserved to be preserved as the sort of entity it was. Otherwise it's hard to explain why Revan didn't use the Starforge to create an army to attack the true Sith with, but instead turned on the Republic. I mean, I'd agree that Revan sacrificed himself to prevent a greater evil, but I also believe he made the mistake that Luke and Ulic Qel-Droma made - he thought he could wield the dark side as a tool without being affected himself, and it ate him alive and twisted his goals. Instead of protecting the Republic from the Mandalorians and the true Sith for the sake of its principles of freedom, he turned to wanting to preserve it as a source for his own empire and whatever path saved more lives. It's a classic fallacy when a person compromises his ideals like this. His intentions may have been good, but those are exactly what makes the road to Hell...

Virtually impossible, since EA now owns Bioware. Besides, why would you need multiple developers for one game? Seems very redundant somehow... The games are called KNIGHTS of the Old Republic. It's pretty clear what "Knights" are being referred to. I have no problem with a Star Wars CRPG focusing on a non-jedi main character, but you can't do it in a KotOR game because those are about Jedi Knights of the Old Republic. I don't see how it would work of a SP RPG. Besides, how many people would play that? I doubt I would, for one... Please don't jinx KotOR3 with comments like that... It reminds me too much of the Evil Overlord's rule no 24:

Palpatine/Sidious

The exile has formed bonds with a number of companions by the time Kreia dies. Then again, I have my own pet theory that the exile's own force connection might have been reestablshed by the time Kreia dies at the end of the game, but that's pure speculation on my part (and a totally different can of worms).

Probably not, but 4e is unlikely to be that useful either, since the computer games usually rewrite the rules pretty freely. Just look at the KotOR games - they are based very loosely on the D20 Star Wars rules and work very differently in several ways. For example, in the computer games, you can choose to use the Flurry progression, the Critical Hit progression or the Power Attack progression, but you cannot use them at the same time like you can in the P&P game. And none of the force-skills made it into KotOR either, while many, many feats and powers were totally rewritten. There wasn't even a sentinel class in the P&P game, and the jedi prestige classes are unlike those in the RPG too.