Volourn

Things like that happen even when the US does.

If the story is accurate. The victim was a being a 'trouble maker' but the officer overreacted and was defintiely in the wrong. You don't shoot an uanrmed man who is either running away or has his arms up. Period. End of discussion. GAME OVER. Still, people are being stupid. There is no evidence this had anything to do with racism. This could just be a **** cop who got angry because someone didn't bow down and kiss his behind. And, breaking into bussiness and committing crimes and fighting is not a proper response either.

"So is reloading." No. It means the game might be challenging though I prefer not to have to reload every 5 minutes either but resting 10 times to complete one dungeon is lame.

"Shadowrun Returns is a combat-focused RPG with no combat XP. It has many problems, but XP mechanics are not among them (IMO as always)." SRR is literally a linear mission based RPG. It makes sense in that one to get xp only for completing said missions. The comparison is fubar. "Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines is very combat oriented rpg, which don't have xp from combat." Yeah, and it hurt the game. I remember just running past battles because I found it a waste of time since there was absolutely no reason to fight. In conclusion, it made sense in SRR for mission based xp but not BL. Two different games. "they're not RPGs anyway -and- most of them usually aren't advertised as spiritual successors to the Infinity engine games either. (for some reason, this utterly relevant point keeps getting forgotten)" Don't be a grognard. Mr. Sawyer loathes grognards even while pimping the game to those who loved the IE games. He picks and chooses what is worthy of the past games and then insults those who disagree with him. I'm personally all for new things and I'm not even dead set against mission based xp when it is logical. It made since in ME2 and SRR. It does not make sense in BL or PE. I'm still trying to figure our why defeating the ogre (through dialogue or combat) is worthy of xp but not beating the beetles (by combat or other method) isn't? Why? Because an npc told you to do it? Because it's part of a 'mission'? Come on... so, to get xp, I have to be a slave to some random npc? L0L AGAIN, why is the ogre worthy of xp but not the beetles? DOES NOT COMPUTE.

I preferred Morte. just sayin'...

Good post. Can't argue with it. That's mean of you.

cause I was using my superior Bg knowledge to outgeek you. <> That's why.

"in a per-kill xp system, yes. How many years of role-playing and DM-ing in an objective xp system to compare? And did you really award kill-xp after each dead enemy in the p'n'p games? Middle of fight?" Depends on the campaign but I amde sure to reward players for their actions and didn't belittle action a compared to action bx. I always made sure to reward for tough battles, completing a mission (be it player opted mission or npc thrown mission - which they always had the option to refuse), clever use of skills, role-playing their character, etc., etc. Like any good DM. Which is why I can't logicallty figure out why the ogre is worth xp but the beetles aren't since they are a challenge to be overcome (deadly according to the video lol). The players should be reward for using their character skills and smart play for over coming them (be it by battle or other method). "Remove that need and they're free to play the way they want - 'kill-em-all' or 'discretion is the better part of valour' or whatever." But, that's always an option. That was an option in BG. i certainly didn't hunt down every single pixel monster in the game espicially repawning ones. Also, the ogre can't be avoided. You have to contront him and kill him or presumably talk him down. Running away/sneaking past him will not, I assume, reward you. In fact, they should give you another method - poison his water/food supplyu. ie. the pigs . that would amke the ogre easy defeta but might anger the druids or other animal lovers in the area opening enw potential quests... and give you the label of PIGKILLER.

" My point, if it isn't clear, is that Obsidian decided, for better or for worse, to use objective XP and so constructive feedback during the beta will be to tell them about places where the XP awards are encouraging people play the game in a way that isn't fun for them." And, this is my feedback.... well.. before all the drama started.. L0L "The ogre isn't the objective by itself (though it is the quest) - it's just at that point (the end of the cave, after getting there) that you're awarded the XP" The ogre is irrelevant to the beetles though. They aren't a part of the 'ogre quest'. That isn't the 'ogre map'. It';s just a huge overland map where the ogre cave/quest is just one aspect of it. There are other stuff/dungeons/etc. a part. of it. The betteles are just 'random' (more placed) enemies on the map found right near the entrance to the area so unavoidable mostly (barring sneaking though a full aprty isn't gonna be able to mass sneak barring a mass invisibility or alike). So, saying you get 'rewarded' for beating the beetles later when you beat the ogre doesn't make sense since they're not part of the ogre quest. "Yeah, but you aren't awarded for killing the ogre, you are awarded for completing the quest. You could have completed the quest without killnig ogre. Killing any other ogre in the game wouldn't give exp." So the quest ogre gives you xp but non quest ogre doesn't? Why? Because npc tells you to hunt him down. So, this game is larping you as a lap dog? No need to explore because npcs will tell you want you need to kill/talk to/sneak past to get xp? Talk about opening the game up to metagaming. This is so silly all because I had one simply question on what was otherwise an awesome video.

But, rogues and other classes can reach as high aslevel 10...

That's been my point all along. So, why are you arguing that xp isn't needed to make something fun (something I haven't argued otherwise so that argument is useless against me since it wasn't my argument in the first place). Why is beating the ogre worthy of xp but not the beetles (and I said beatle not kill so that implies talking or whatever method of 'beating' them)? And,d on't tell me it's ebcause the ogre is 'tougher'. I didn't see HIM kill any parties in the videos. L0L So, the beetles are a worthy challenge to be overcome. They should be worth xp. How 'bout a compromise. You get x ammount of xp for ridding the map of violent over aggresive monsters like the beetles or spiders. You don't have to do this through combat. It cna be done like in FO where you can trap them inside a cave with explosives or whatever ala scorpions or trick them into following a food source away from civilization. All these ways can lead you to get getting xp. See, I win again.

Why isn't 'dealing' with the beetles awarded but 'dealing' with the ogre is awarded? Oh yeah, because a PC tell you to. Come on. "That's a statement but not backed up by any reasoning." It's backed by 30 years of role-playing and DMing experience of both pnp and CRPGs. "Quest XP makes all solutions equally viable and therefore different solutions can be used in different playthroughs without worrying about XP gain." All solutions are always viable (if the devs put them in the game).

You mention TOB but TOTSC...

Why have any xp at all then huh?

"If you wanted to, you could hit the level cap by resting there and killing yeti. Do you agree that it wouldn't be fun to do that? " Ok. Good clarification. I would never do that nor do I find it fun. But, if other people do in a SP game... big deal? \And, if you want to stop that type of 'grinding' there are better ways to do it. Either a ) don't have respawns at all or b) more enemies of the same type you kill the less value they are. Afterall, one of my personal arguments in this is that why shouldn't the player gain xp after successfully defeating the beetles since xp is supposed to be extraction of 'learning'. Well, if you just killed your 50th beetle you probably aren't learning anything new compared to when you defeated your first.

I just enjoy logic. I want someone to logically why killing the ogre is worth xp but killing the beetles is not worth xp simply because an npc told you to kill the ogre? DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

You just stated what I said. You get xp for killing ogre because you are told by a NPC to do kill him. You don't get xp for killing beetles because no NPC tells you to kill them. What's the point of exploration then? I'll just let the npcs tell me where I should go. L0L

"I don't think you'd want to reload. If your character is maimed, and therefore alive, you've just possibly defeated a tough encounter. You'd just need to rest... Alternatively, you could turn on expert mode and outright die when you reach 0 health to avoid the "inconvenience" of being maimed. :)" Or you could reload and potentially 'fix' any mistakes you may have commited during your previous try. I have no interest in 'resting' after every battle or two like shown in that video. I find that kind of game style lame. I rather tackle an entire dungeon without resting (or max once if it's a huge dungeon). Resting every 5 minutes is lame.

"I just think this system being employed in PoE is a good step for diverse gameplay and replayability as we find different ways through encounters and quests." Quest xp vs combat xp has NOTHINg to do with diverse game play or replayability. None.

" The intent of not including kill XP is to prevent (unfun) things like grinding. " While I'm not a big fan of grinding for grinding sake this idea that 'grinding' in of itself is 'unfun is bogus. It's super bogus when entire games are made where 'grinding' is the entirety of the game and those games ar epopular and the player base finds it fun. *cough* Diablo series *cough* I'm no huge Diablo series fan. Played 1 and enjoyed it well enoguh. Have not played part 2 or 3. So, you just bashed tons of players who enjoyed and had fun with Diablo, IWD, and a host of other games. LMAO Anyways, you still haven't clarified - how is killing the ogre worth xp but not the beetles? because a NPC tells you to kill him. Come on.

"^because the devs decided that killing your way through those beetles and finding the cave and getting past the spiders AND dealing with the ogre was worth [number]XP Or didn't you read my point about 'delayed reward'?" But, killing the beetles has nothing to do with the cave. Their just random monster on a area map. they have no connection to the ogre. In fact, you may very well be on that map for some non ogre related reason. "'Run away from' = deal with the threat 'Sneak past' = deal with the threat" Neither of these are 'dealing with the threat'. The threat is still there. Now, negoiating (can't be done with beetles obviously) and killing are dealing with the threat. Again, why is the ogre worth xp but not the beetles? Because you were told by a NPC to talk/kill him? Huh. "There are multiple ways to overcome the threats - the game just takes into account that you did it and then awards xp / you get to the cave / piglet-pet / etc" The cave/piglet has NOTHING to do with the beetles. Anyways, now my actual dev question is buried. L0L Well done. A serious question now ruin by the 'must do what the npc tell you to do to get rewrad'c rew won. I'll leave it there until the Obsidianites answer it (if they do). It's a fair question. Why shouldn't the PC be rewarded for overcoming the beetles in a meaningful way that helps them grow their abilities which is what xp is supposed to represent? Hmm.. "This is why Numenera P&P doesn't give you exp for killing creatures Because the game designers know that if you are rewarded exp for killing them, player feels that most optimal solution is killing them instead of role playing it in any other way." Don't speak for me. You certainly don't speak for me as a player.

"Also, I think this currently has its own thread." I'm asking a question to do with the video. It belongs here. "Quest does not equal objective (In one vid, Adam killed the ogre before getting the quest from the farmer and still got the xp)" So.. why is the ogre worth xp but not the beetles? Does not make sense. Maybe I hate beetles and my objective is to kill every one. I should get xp for that. Xp should be about 'learning' (in the abstract obviously it's exactly the same). There is no logical reason why a party that defeats those beetles should NOT get any xp for it. NONE

"Seems like a perfectly relevant point to me. If you don't enjoy combat, why demand that something coax you into combat? And if you DO enjoy combat, then you're already happy with your choice to partake in it, before XP even factors into the equation. At that point, the only reason you'd be upset is if your choice to partake in as much combat as possible yielded an XP detriment as compared to other lines of choosing. Which won't be the case here, so what's the issue? Also, the reason for not always getting XP for the act of killing is the same as the reason for not always getting XP for the act of disarming traps. "I get 20XP every time I disarm a trap! 8D! Oh look! A field of bear traps! Time out, party! I don't enjoy disarming dozens of bear traps, but we're gonna scour EVERY ounce of this forest for them, and disarm every single one! THANKS, developers! Without that XP incentive, I wouldn't have had this great reason to make choices I don't enjoy in the least! ^___^"" You shoudln't get xp for anything then. Why? You should have fun no matter what right? You shoudlw ant to complete quests because they're good quests not because of xp, gold, or other rewards right? The experience itself should be enough.

." Should they give you xp for killing deer too?" Deer aren't trying to kill. Bad comparison. "You get the assumably valuable materials from the dead animal and open up areas that might have dungeons, treasure or quests. That's good enough." So.. you only learn stuff if someone tells you do stuff? WTH? presumably your character who survive the beetle battle would learn something. That is what xp is supposed to be aboout. EPIC FAIL on your fanboyism excuse. Killing the ogre next you xp because you were told to kill him (or talk to him) but killing the beetles don't? LOGIC. NOT NEEDED . The game looks terrific but this could turn into a horrible BL situation. I hope not as the game deserves more than that.

"Because they're not being killed. If they were the ones who were getting slaughtered, I would've advocated protection for them instead. I think you would too. But in this case, you prefer not to." Yeah, they are. Why do you lie?