Kalfear

Thats nice to assume Steve but its not realistic. Right now, as western society works, gays are tolerated but NOT veiwed as equal. Your kidding yourself if you think on a whole that they are. BTW, that doesnt mean society is right, that just means thats the way it is. And when looking at laws and social structure (which is where Adoption would fall under) you cant say "well if these people live in this neighborhood of this specific city then they can adopt but if you cross the street they cant because of a different enviroment". Thats just ludicrise to think. The laws and social and political agendas need to cover all aspects related to topic area. Adoption is a FEDERAL issue in both Canada and the United States, thus the country make up is the pulse for decisions. Not any individual neighborhood, village, town, city, province, state. In regards to gays adopting in the states, it doesnt matter if the parents from San Fransico or West Texas, one law covers them all. And even though gays are allowed to adopt in both Canada and the USA currently, it is NOT in the childs best interest to allow it. And a loving family is great! Ask a kid how much that loving family means when he is in a school yard fight every day for a year BECAUSE OF WHO HIS FAMILY IS. Sorry but as I said before, Ill say again, the laws should reflect whats BEST for the child, the parents (new or old) should not be reflected in the decision what so ever! Its all about the child! Hell, I grew up in a small town that was VERY unbias in a normal family and even then I couldnt give you a fair or accurate estimate of how many fights I got into regarding being adopted between grades 1 and 6. I literally lost count. And thats being in a NORMAL middle class white family surrounded by normal middle class white people (you dont get any better area situations then that to judge from). And yes, real progress can be made by bringing an issue out in the open. BUT thats between the ADULTS. You dont (or shouldnt) sacrafice children to get your point across! Fix the bias FIRST before bringing children into the equation. Simple as that. Sorry but as I said in first post about this topic, its one that is very close to my heart. I lived through it (not having gay parents but being adopted) so I know the challenges they face in normal situations. I shudder at what adopted children will face having gay parents in todays social climate. There really is no arguement that will change my mind on this either. Its like a reformed drug addict trying to explain to someone thats never tried drugs on what addiction is like. You have no clue until your faced with the problem yourself. You can use philosophy, create what you think are decent arguements and valid opinions, in the end it really is just, you have no idea. Its really not something people can learn by reading books and listening to lectures and what not. Either you know or you dont, is no middle ground. NO, this is a discussion about morales and different topics and how morales effect them. This SPECIFIC topic though shouldnt take morales into account. ONLY the child should matter. IE: not what is morally right but what is ACTUALLY right. Big difference between those two. What is moral may not be the best course of action bepending on the situation and parameters. The parameters here are whats best for the child, not the parents, not the social structure, not the morale high ground. What is LITERALLY best for the child. And for the record, damn right gays should be disallowed from adopting until such a time as society in general will not penalize the CHILD for the actions of his/her adopted parents. 99.99% of the time I am driven by whats right, and do the right thing. The right thing here would be to say all people who will love and care for a child should be allowed to adopt. BUT I cant say that because those parents, because of their lifestyle currently, will harm the child inadvertantly. and I repeat again, ITS ALL ABOUT THE CHILD! So no, gays should not be allowed to adopt, it might not be fair but thats life because their actions will directly effect the child. Let me put it this way. When I was growing up if you walked up to me and punched me for no reason. Morally I should turn the other cheek and walk away. Reality though is I would pound you into the ground (or attempt to anyways). The way things SHOULD be are not always what they WILL be. Thats the difference between what you suggest and I do. Your thinking of how things should be, I speaking on how they are.

When would we know? I cant give a hard answer on that, all I can say really is its not now. Obviously the chances are the situation will never be 100% predictable, but when society reaches a point were we can reasonably assume the safety of the child is when we allow it. Only real example I can give is now (2005) when know a child being raised in a mixed racial family would probably not be ostrasized to any great extent (doubt we ever hit 100%). But the veiws of society towards homosexuals is not at the same level as it is towards other races. Id say today homosexuals looked at more like blacks were in the 1960s. Its going to take time to change that veiw and erase the hatered or fear towards them. Im sure it will happen, but todays society is not yet at that point. Thats really about the best I can explain it. As I said above, I think the Gay movement will get alot bumpier before it gets better though to be honest. People tend to resist change and others try to force change, those two sides are going to clash yet, and when they do, do you really want children on the front lines of the fight? I sure dont. Fix the over all problem and then start adding in the extras rights over time. To much to fast will always cause confrontation and situations.

Not condoning societies bigotry Meta. In a perfect world this wouldnt be a issue what so ever. BUT its not a perfect world and until it is we need to side on the side of whats best for the child. Sure its not fair that many (cant say all as some gays, like some of other minorities do bring it upon themselves) homosexuals are not treated fairly. In almost any topic Ill side on the side of equal rights and common sence, but this specific topic involves a 3rd party. IMO that 3rd party takes precidence over everyone else. Whats fair, whats decent, whats common sence only applies to the 3rd party IMO as thats the only party not able to have a say in the preceedings. Its like back in the 50s and the racial thing. Was racism good? Of course not. Should Black have had to live through racism? Of course not. BUT if a black person went into a all white diner they knew what the responce would be. The difference in this topic is rather then the adult going into the diner of his/her own free will, they are instead placing a newborn in the diner rather then themselves. Obviously the newborn cant defend itself, doesnt understand the situation or why its on the recieving end of unreasonable hatred, but it is all the same. Sure when someone adopts a child everyone should react decently and compassionately. BUT we already know thats NOT going to be the case. So until society is fixed the children shouldnt be the ones placed on the front lines of the battle. Yes society is messed up when it hates something or someone because they are different, Ill never argue that point as its the most basic common sence. But its even more basic common sence that you dont place children in harms way because of the intolerence out there. And thats really whats happening when homosexuals adopt children at this point in time. Fix the problem FIRST then adopt so the child doesnt come to harm because of the problem. Maybe some day society will reach that point. I suspect the topic will get alot uglier before it gets better though to be honest. Children shouldnt have to pay for situations they had nothing what so ever to do with and no say in though. As I said in original post, on this topic ONLY the child matters. Not society, not homosexuals, not anything other then the child. As they are the only one truely innocent (bad word but stresses the point im trying to make) regarding the topic. Opps PS: You ask would I disagree with people of a different race being allowed to adopt a child. No I wouldnt. But you must understand that comes from the current situation of todays world and the climate I live in. Racism is far less likely to happen in Canada today compared to biogtry towards homosexuals. If you asked me during the 2nd World war if Japaneese Canadians should be allowed to adopt children I would have said NO because at that time and place the climate was far different (japanesse Canadians were imprisoned after the attack on Pearl Habor in Canada). If you asked me if a Black family in the United states should have been allowed to adopt in the 1950s I would have said NO. Again because of the climate of the times. Whats best for the child takes precidence over everything else. Its not a relection of whats right or wrong, its a refection of the times and whats best for the child. Nothing else matters.

Wow! Im surprised someone brought this up (adoption issue). Its an issue close to me heart. Before I continue Im going to tell abit of background so people understand where Im coming from. I was adopted. Because of the laws in Canada in 1970, I was undable to find out any family medical history since the laws protected the parents and not the child. So (as I stated in other post) I wasnt aware of a hereditary disease that was in family and was diagnosed to late into its progression (no cure but is some stuff I could have done to slow it down when it was early in its progression, now to late). During 1980-1990 I was also a male model (straight btw, always have been 100% of the time, never tried any alternative life style so were clear on topic) so I did form freindships with a number of gay people. And to be honest had far more experience in the gay community then many other hetrosexual people ever do. Also had a uncle that died from AIDs in 1997 who was gay. His partner remains part of our family and is as much an uncle as my real uncle was. Thats far more information about myself then I wished to share on the internet but wanted to say that so people know my opinions on this topic is not formed on some homophobic ideal or uneducated/unexperienced veiw. I am TOTALLY and COMPLETELY against gays being allowed to adopt children. My veiw point comes from the eyes of the CHILD and not from the parents. Im sure some (not all) gay people could be good parents, just like some (not all) hetrosexual people can be good parents. But frankly that has ZERO to do with my stance on this issue. Children can be the cruelest people you have ever met, they dont mean to many times but lack the knowledge of what is teasing and what is going over the line. Growing up adopted is NOT an easy life in the most perfect situation. When children find out you are adopted you will be harrassed with hurtful words like you were thrown away, you were not wanted, ect ect ect from other children. As a teen ager or older you understand these words mean nothing (for the most part) and can defend yourself. As a child though these words carry great weight and impact you greatly. Its NOT an easy thing to just brush off and ignore in your early years. So the LAST thing an adopted child needs is to have a family make up that will be ridiculed and insulted. Having gay parents WILL cause you to be ostrasized and make for a easy target by other children. No matter how politically correct the area you live in is, no matter how loving your adopted parents may or may not be, just the fact they are gay will make you and easy target for badgering and torment. I think gay people that adopt children are some of the MOST selfish and arrogent people on the face of the planet. They willingly place the child into harms way so they can feel BETTER about themselves. Only a idiot would assume their life style would not be open fodder to those looking to hurt or embaress the child that was adopted. You can say the child is special because they were choosen a million times every day, it doesnt carry much weight when others intentionally target you for harrassment. Many ADULT gay people stay in the closet because of said harressment, as adults that is their choice, but what gives them the right to intentionally place a child in the line of fire? Its selfish and ignorant. Now people can talk about family values, people can talk about learned life styles, they both good topics that do carry some weight, but in the end, when all is said and done. Any choice about a child being adopted should come down to whats best for the CHILD, whats good for the parents shouldnt come into the equation what so ever. ONLY WHATS BEST FOR THE CHILD! Being raised in a homosexual family puts undue and unneeded stress on the child and puts them in harms way regardless of intentions.

I think "we" [read: Global Community] already have the means to...if we could somhow co-operate. There are always going to be countries like North Korea that will happily starve their population and sped money on weapons...until the US decides they are a threat to US Security and forcibly makes democracies out of them. How about you all? Would you support your country going to war against any government that was butchering its own people, or pretend it didn't happen, like everybody did during the Khimer Rouge in Cambodia? (I'm not suggesting the reason behind the war on Iraq was at all noble, merely asking if you'd support going to war to stop local/national genocide). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Would I support my country? NOPE! (course im canadain and we dont declare war anyways on our own!). I would however support COUNTRIES removing governments that didnt have their peoples best interests at stake. I think to many real objections and concerns about motives can be brought up when ONE country attacks anouther under the disguise of "Its for their overall best". Right now we see this happening regarding The United states and Iraq (even though Bush did get UK and few other smaller countries to join in). Some very REAL points regarding the attack being about Iraqs oil rather then attacks being whats best for Iraq can be made and validated. And for the record I was in favor of removing Sadam and the war in general. Just with out it being a TRUE colition of countries, the intentions can be questioned and analazed and the results do raise more questions. Today in the news there was yet anouther terrorist attack that killed 10 more people in Bagdad <sp?>. Yet the areas with oil contain more troops and are guarded more closely then major cities with populations. No matter what side of the war issue you were on, the aftermath has to be questioned. Thats why I think any wars should require a minimim of 10 medium to super powered countries to agree and form togather. And those countries can NOT profit from the war from said country reasources. Only then can the claim "its best for the people" be made. How does having all american oil barons running the oil from Iraq now help Iraq? Prior to the war Iraq managed to control and sell their oil with out american involvement. How does this NOW help them with american controling Iraqs oil? Its a contradiction. As I said, I supported the war, Sadam had to go. I think the world of the american men and women over there that are really trying to help the Iraq people. But to much else is happening for the claim "its best for the people" to be real now. Its like one dictator was replaced by a country(meaning government involvement) of dictators. heh, after all that though, if I was american I still wouldnt have voted for Kerry either!

Well that's dumb. That's a longer sentence than murderers get in some places. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Improper sentances for murder doesnt make stealing anymore proper. 2 wrongs dont make a right after all. And for those making up excuses and claiming its not theif, yes it is. I could care less about Lucas's bank account. Fact of the matter is episode 3, or someones song, or someones computer game is THEIR intelectual property. By purchasing LEGALLY, you are being given the rights to have such property in your possession. Otherwise you have participated in the theft or that property. Its really quite straight forward, there is no legit debate or arguement room in the topic. As for putting half the worlds population in jail, nope. Soon as REAL global laws were created and enforced with REAL penalties, the reward wouldnt justify the risk and the majority of those people would stop doing the illegal act. Problem is right now all the involved parties are rarely charged and the sentance for doing the crime doesnt carry the deterant factor it should. This in itself is proved right here on this forum by all the people who fail to see how this is a crime. Stealing a movie, a computer game, a song by downloading it or from some pirated source is just the same as if I hired some crook to break into your home and steal your computer, TV, what ever. Material that you own is STOLEN with out your permission and then passed to myself for a price. You loss out, the crook gains, I gain. Absolutely no difference what so ever! So are you people claiming its ok to break into your homes and rob you? Nope, your not! All your saying is its ok to break into someone elses home and steal from them as long as its not your goods or property. And thats a shameful and disgusting attitude to have from where I sit. I know if I ever made a movie, or a computer game, or recorded a song, I would want to profit from my idea and design. The way I profit is by people buying the REAL version of what Im selling. No one pays for it, I dont make a profit and there for dont make a follow up (insert product). Really is BASIC economics. Im sure someone will TRY to argue or bedate (or more then likely insult) my post but its a open and shut topic. It really is one of the few topics out there that is black and white. Either you are against pirateing and refuse to STEAL from others (the correct veiw) or you are ok with it (the incorrect veiw). Everything else is just smoke and mirrors. Alot of hot air but nothing being said.

While im sure the graphics will be upgraded. Why should they change engine? It always amazes me over the years, people ask for new engines in highly successfull game lines, developers do it, and game tanks as it loses its feel. I hope they keep same engine and just upgrade graphics, keep the fundamentals the same so KotOR franchise continues to be the star it is. If it aint broken, dont fix it

WOOT The last TRUE turn based game around it seems! hehe, Sounds awsome! Hopefully I can get 1000+ hours of game play outta it like I did with Civ 3 and Civ 2!

Morales will always play apart in every topic. And will be argued because people have different beliefs or morals. Just no two ways around it sadly. Abortion will never truely be embraced or ostrasized and polititions will never make a hard and fast rule because they need to be popular to be elected. UN has different cultures all clashing. Iraq a short term issue (compared to others) but comes down to religion when all is said and done, and when religions involved its always ugly). Energy shouldnt have moral issues you would think but fundamentalists will always make sure there is (science really should be able to finalize this issue when you think about it) Gay Rights, its always going to be a issue. So many different things involved in it that its never going to be finalized either. LOL, I know as I get older (40 now) I start paying more and more attention to this topics and politics in general and be it Canada, USA, England, or where ever, its just a cluster F*. Just gotta shake your head and hope you get a say in the topics that matter to you the most and that common sence prevails in the topics that dont. Course politics being the way it is, that will probably never happen either. Lately I been paying more attention to discoveries in Stem Cell Reaserch. Its illegal here in Canada so I have to wait for news from Europe regarding it, but as someone with a debilitating herditary condition, I blow my top everytime I hear someone not suffering the pain and financial cost of $13,000+ a year in medication cost say its wrong to study these things. But theres going to be two (or more) sides to every topic no matter what. Someone above spoke about gay rights. Some folks are for it, some folks against it, some dont care, and others like myself more concerned with "special privliges" over and above the rights of everyone else (IE: NOT for granting MORE rights then everyone else has). Multifacited topic that will probably never be completely worked out. Courts want the polititions to answer it, polititions want the courts to answer it, religion wants to answer it, gay communities want to answer it. Until one and all of these parties actually willing to sit down and work out compromises, it will never be answered.

They should bring it out on current console. Finish the series on the system they started it on. Course that will never happen as KotOR franchise to good a seller and would increase XBox 360 sales greatly. Forget PS3 and that. It will be a xbox/pc release again, bet your bottom dollar on that.

I hated the ending myself BUT if Part 3 comes out picking up where part 2 left off I will publicaly appoligize here to Obsidian as it will then make more sence. Right now Im assuming Part 2 ending was just like a TV show or Movie saying "to be continued". As for the "how did the Hawk get repaired and all that", thats just were suspension of disbelief comes in. Take it with a grain of salt and smile That part didnt bother me at all. What got me was the ending was anti climatic. Just didnt have a feel of completion. As I said, if part 3 picks up where part 2 ended Ill be a happy camper and have no issues at all with ending! Heck, if they let me blow up GoTo at the start of part 3 ill say part two ending was the greatest thing since sliced bread heh

I wouldnt say that. Influence (or lack of) is what opens up the storylines of each npc party member. Frankly, I loved Obsidians influence system, even more so now I have finished playing Jade Empire. Bioware seems to only do influence for romance angles, Obsidian made it important for each party member meaning you had to interact with each party member beyond just remembering to speak to them often. I think Influence system in K2 is what gave the game such great replay value. I played KotOR1 5-6 times (cant remember exactly now) I played K2 8-9 times, and JE 5 times (5th time I started half way through from a previously saved game). Influence matters alot IMO. Hardly useless. Yes they could have fixed some things to better react to situation you in or their shift in personality, but still a far better system then found in other games.

I tried FFXI (PC Version). It was a popular game with the teen crowd and had good subscription rates. Granted it didnt catch on in North America but has decent Asian market coverage. but will XBox 360 be lacking that is the question? (personally I dont know much about 360 as Ill wait till I am ready to buy it before I look into it heavily. Just seems to me that MS would make sure common place stuff like that will be there this time around. Lots of MMORPGs dont make it outta the planning or early creation stages. AC games have a very low subscription rate and are slowly dieing. While im NOT a fan of AC, its been around a fair amount of time and has lived its life. It never was ( even at its highest subscription numbers) a real competitor in the MMORPG wars (it never really competed with EQ, UO, or even DAoC for that matter). As for Mythica, Id be willing to bet the law suit against them regarding name had far more to do with its cancellation then any thing else. Not true what so ever Drac. Longest running MMORPGs (off top of head so times wont be perfect quotations) 1) The Realms: 11-12 years 2) UO: 9-10 years 3) EQ: 8-9 years 4) AC: 7 years 5) DAoC: approaching 5 years 6) SWG Approaching 4 years There is others im sure but its 3 am here, but point is made Not sure where you get this 6 month period from. As a long term die hard MMORPG player I can tell you based on actual experience that MMORPGs tend to have their first drop in subscriptions AFTER their first year out. HOWEVER, popular MMORPGs like EQ, Lineage, DAoC, ect actually grow in overall subcriptions after the first year (new accounts off set leaving accounts).. Its actually the 3 year (not 6 month) mark were the subscription numbers noticably fall lower then previous levels. Also, you pointed out WoW. WoW is designed for the casual player, BY DESIGN its going to have a much higher turn over rate then other MMORPGs because you run out of content faster. A normal MMORPG player (20-30 hours a week playing) will max out in WoW in 2-3 weeks. So their higher drop off rate was to be expected. Should also note that WoW is not the standard design of a MMORPG and the newer batch of MMORPGs coming out are doing everything they can to NOT be associated (in design) to WoWs template. PS: For a MMORPG in todays market to break even they need 80k accounts (not including original purchase price) to break even. (this information releaed by Wolfpack Studios, designers of Shadowbane). WoW currently has 2.5 million subscribers. Yes they are losing accounts at a rate never before seen in the MMORPG market. But they have made their money back and then some even if EVERYONE left now and they continued to run game for next 20 years. DAoC is at its lowerst levels ever and STILL has close to 200k active subscriptions every month. EQ (last I heard) was still at 800k active subscriptions. SWG (last I heard) was at 500k active subscriptions. Lineage (last I heard) was at 1.5 million active subscriptions. Heck, even Shadowbane and AC2 (both concidered utter flops in the MMORPG genre) have made their money back plus some. Yes MMORPGs are costly to make, but if you see it through to release, your pretty much guarenteed to make money from it. Other then Horizons, I cant think of a single MMORPG (in 14+ years) that didnt make its money back and then a profit. Thats a pretty good percentage which ISNT true to the Offline game market. All of these questions can be answered in a single word.....YES Of course that yes depends on who is creating the MMORPG. No current MMORPG company has any products that come remotely close to the quality storylines that Bioware and Obsidian are known for now. Hell Blizzard comes the closest and even they cant be compared when refering to storylines IMO. So yes you could see alot of changes. Details depend on the system. Make a MMORPG for the new XBox 360 and I wouldnt doubt for a second that the details would be better then currently. Dialog all depends on how its written. Fact is EVER single quest and story from K1 or K2 or Jade Empire can be done almost identically in a MMORPG. FFXI has one unique quality to it, it really does play like a offline rpg some times. Complete with cut screens and ever thing. As for story. Stories are what MMORPG players have been waiting for and still are. Go read any MMORPG site and they want quests that get them involved in storylines. Problem is companies like Blizzard, Sony, Mythic, ect always use the cop out excuse of " The players create the storyline". No one wants that other then the programers as it cuts down on content demands. So just because MMORPGs have lacked storylines in the past doesnt mean we dont want them and they cant have them. Again, only if you have a bland developer making the MMORPG. KotOR franchise would be AWSOME as a MMORPG (made by Bioware or Obsidian). The only real reason we will not see it is because SOE has the rights to Star Wars MMORPGs. Thus were stuck with SWG, which is a terrible terrible thing (sorry cant even bring myself to call it a game anymore). PS: If you want proff on what I just told you, go visit Dungeons and Dragons Online website. Upcoming MMORPG where the STORY and quests will be the game rather then the cop out static stuff you seem to think are required in MMORPGs. Just because everyone thus far has made sub quality games doesnt mean everyone has to, each developer is different and a KotOR MMORPG (useing the design of the offline game but expanded on) would be a HUGE freaking success. Its truely a shame it will never happen though.

Welp I know I refuse outright to buy pirated stuff. Personally think there should be GLOBAL laws for this sorta stuff with 10+ years imprisonment for spreading or downloading or purchasing known pirated material. Ill wait for the Star wars Geeks to slow down and then go see movie once in theater and if its good ill buy the DvD at Walmart or Blockbuster. Maybe its a good thing this happening to a franchise that people so passionate about though. Sometimes it takes something really mainstream to kick others into action. Be it a movie, a computer game, music, whatever, pirateing and supporting pirated material should be a serious crime and treated as a serious crime with sever consiquences.

heh, its kinda funny this topic on this message boards as chances of this getting into Star Wars a billion to one anyways. Star Wars just doesnt deal with this type of subject so Lucas would probably veto it before it ever got off the ground anyways.

I played as female but I just cut Atton and Disiple off before it ever starts to be honest. heh, I learned my lesson in KotOR1 with the juvinile flirting Carth does. Just stop it before it gets started! I spent my attention on Visas personally

Hmmm, id be uncomfortable, actually no I wouldnt as I wouldnt play such a game that forced Alternative lifestyles on me. Simple as that. No interest what so ever in Role Playing such a relationship. I personally think JE did it right by giveing you the choice, and then asking you twice to validate the choice before moving into the alternative area. And sorry Buch but you do understand it, hell my gay friends and relatives understand it. None of them intentionally try to make others uncomfortable so dont go into detail about their love lifes (and thats really the only issue involved in such a discussion). They leave their bed rooms in their bed rooms! Outside of it they just normal people. Well no idea where you get your information but gay characters in games (that you interact with, not just an npc that gives a quest) no where in the forseeable future. Ive yet to see one company say what your claiming and with no announcements you have to assume "status Quo" is what the rules will be for the moment. And for the record (since you mentioned it) Im Canadian, yas know. The land of promise as its made out by the gay communities in the states. As it stands at this very moment, gay marriage is hardly a decided upon topic and one province has already stated very clearely (alberta..same province Bioware in) that they will use the not with standing clause to NOT allow gay marriages or recognize them in Alberta. So while I personally have no problem (actually not true but my issues tax related, not homosexual related, and this hardly the place to go into canadian tax law discussion) with gay marrages, no one can just assume its comming. United states been VERY clear on the issue and Canada is bogged down in a huge debate with no real victor, as of yet, comeing forth. So no (speaking of North America) gay marriages are not flat out coming in the future. Its being discussed and debated but no final answer been made either way. PS: The gay marriage part isnt a insult at hoimosexuals, I just hate people that state their personal veiws as fact. Darth Buch tried to mislead where the topic stands currently. Hardly as open and shut as he claimed. There is a very real chance gays will NOT be allowed to marry in Canada and the states and will continue to have the same rights as the rest of us only, with no change. There is also a very real chance (in Canada, states have pretty much stated their choice on matter) that gays will get extra rights. no one knows yet.

I guess my thought on the filter is that I do appreciate the artists intent regardless what that be. I still can't see DVD's with the "G" rated version of "Pulp Fiction" as a filter option ... I realize that for many DVD's, music, etc have nothing to with games, but in so many ways they do. Now I can see a point in filters for "mainstream" games ... or games appealing to a wide audience ... but in these cases the content would be PG or PG-13 at best equivalent. Going back to the DVD example to you really expect a mainstream movie like say "Shark Tale" to have "bad content" option that will allow you to watch the fish do the nasty? Or here Oscar cursing Lenny? Point being that content should be geared toward the target audience. If it is fitting for the selected game to have cursing, nudity whatever ... fine ... that is why we have the entire rating system ... If it's not ... then I don't want to play a kiddie game just because it has couple easter egg nudie clips. Keep the content uncensored ... but keep it where it belongs. And that way if you see something that you don't want to watch or listen to then you don't buy it. But the truth is that revenue for adult content is there regardless if it has a clean version so a seven year old can play. To that degree ... given the technology, given the rating system in place, given the fact that games are already coming out, not just PC but on consoles as well ... then the answer to the topic question "So is it Time?" would be that it is past time and you are running late. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> heh, thats were the delemia happens. Im asking about mainstream games. Obviously not Star Wars because Star Wars has never embraced vulgarity, nudity, or alternative relationships. But main stream in general. A good example actualy is Jade Empire (if you played it). At the conclusion of the romance scene the PC kisses the NPC he/she involved with in the romance. However, if you read the words exchanged just prior to the kiss, it becomes obvious to most they spend the night togather. The problem (that I was refering to ) is that even though one would think thats obvious, more then just afew DIDNT get it. The concept or storyline was totally lost on them. This is where a more adult scene (not saying nudity but maybe siloettes on the tent embracing and such) could be used to make sure anyone playing DID get it. Anouther example actually does come from KotOR2. Anyone thats followed the storyline and read the warnings from Kreia and comments from Visas knows that the cinematic of the PC and Visas shareing the force so she can see was a artful way of suggesting a sexual relationship between the two. Yet is you read back on the Obsidian boards you see again, LOTS of people just didnt get it. And then went on to complain the storyline was lacking or incomplete because they didnt get it. Add in a scene where after the force shareing the Exile embraces Visas and they lay down togather (again, no nudity needed) and suddenly these people, that dont understand clear but very passive suggestions like discribed, suddenly GET IT. Now obviously I used two examples were nudity or vulgarity wasnt needed but other mainstream games might find themselves in a possition where they have to resort to nudity or vulgarity to get point accross (after all, most developers out there dont write as well as Bioware or Obsidian). So anyways, since Im refering to mainstream products, I think a filter should be added 100% of the time. Think of it this way, Bioware added a filter for blood in JE (could turn it off or on) and designed romances in a way that you personally had to initiate the romance and then double and triple verify your intent before any romances happened. This was obviously added to ensure no one, but those interested, accidently ended up with the homosexual romances. If just something like blood requires a filter, then surely vulgarity and nudity does as well. On the grand scale of things, id say blood is far less contraversial then nudity, vulgarity, and alternative lifestyles. Filters only make sence when put into context IMO PS: Just to summerize: Im not asking for nudity, vulgarity, or even blood for that matter for the sake of having it. My enquirery is more about useing these things to advance storylines and situations.

LOL, Jay Its impossible to NOT defend an idea when you think its a good one! LOL, trust me, I have tried as well before. Just take solice in the fact that those bashing the idea have not made any valid or real counter arguements as of yet and just bashed the idea or KotOR games. LOL, like the guy that posted saying 2 terrible plots, yada yada yada. If they plots were half as bad as he claims then KotOR1 wouldnt have been the overwhelming game of year, and KotOR2 wouldnt have been a overwhelming sales success. Obviously he has no clue what hes speaking about and just trolling!

heh Jay, While I agree with everything you said, I gotta go with cloris on the filter aspect. Filters should be provided so no one person is forced to see or hear that style of content if they dont want to. Thats just good business practice for a company and would increase rather then minimize sales figures across the board. I know for myself, even tho Im personally indifferent to all this contraversial content (makes no real difference to me if its in or out, I have no morale objection to it) I would definately look down on a designer that forced vulgarity or a alternative romance on me in a game and would most probably would opt for the "dont buy approach". For a game creater, thats lost income that really should have been gained income. However if they did it like Bioware did it in JE where the content is in there but I have to show my intent to see it (JE has alternative romances), it would be a non issue for me. I mean, over the years I have had many gay friends, doesnt mean I personally embrace their life style and want to be involved in it. I judge people on who they are, not what they are or what they do in the privacy of their own homes. But they know that so dont sit there telling me about stuff I have no interest in. In a sence, thats a filter, and because of it, we all get along fine. Same goes for swearing, I personally look down on people that swear every second word. Over the years Ive known people that do fit that catagory, but when in my precense they intentionally try not to or try to minimize the content. Again, not because of any morale outrage but because I choose to not live me life around that garbage, and will opt to walk away if someone insists on swearing that often. So in a sence thats a filter, and friendship becomes more important then the right to swear in abundance. For Closis: Hmmm maybe if you have done some of the romance with Disiple, his cut screne takes over, or takes precidence. I know when I played female character, I point blank refused to romance Atton or disiple and did get the cut screen with Visas of shareing force moment. Wasnt refering to the gaining of force site ability.

Wow. lots to reply to today! Lets start with Cloris Welp. all I can really say is yes, as a female you do get the force sharing scene with Visas, along with the entire build up. At least I (and many many others who posted about when boards were active) got it when I tried the female character. No Idea why you didnt unless maybe you did follow Visas's storyline far enough to get it (but Visas's storyline was the easiest of all the NPC characters so not really sure how you couldnt get the the scene). Also, sorry you feel suggesting many players didnt GET the meaning as insulting. All I can really say is look back at the older posts and you will see for yourself that yes, many people just flat out didnt GET it (which is what prompted me to even start this thread to begin with). Wasnt meant as, or intended to be, insulting. Was simply factual information. I see the same problem happening in JE currently (and that game DOES include a kiss scene). Many people see the scene but dont actually read the conversation before the kiss and dont understand its meaning. Again, not meant as an insult really, just a simple truth that many who play RPGs, sadly, dont read and rely on the cinematics to tell them the full story. There is no way to force them to read, but by adding more adult content, the parts they missed would be made crystal clear for them. Cant really explain it any better then that. Sorry Sion, but what you find obscene doesnt nessicarily make it so. I have been dabating this same topic on Bioware boards (came up in a romance thread and no, I wasnt the one to bring it up), and no one there yet has suggested its obscene. Fact is, as different poster posted already, nudity and vulgarity can already be found in certain games. I know as a person that was around for the start of the computer age (40 years old), many early releases included nudity or special updates to bring in nudity (vulgarity really wasnt a issue until resently). And there was no uproar about it. Not sure what you mean by "do what you do". If your suggesting people whack off to a computer game, I must say thats a VERY narrow, imatuer, and grossly over generalized veiw. As I said in original post, my question was more in regards to storyline clarity then any perverse assuptions. While I totaly disagree with your assumptions I should point out that the world is changing. What people are ready to (not embrace but) tolerate is definately on a far different level then even 10 years ago. A clear example of that would be the homosexual romances in JE. 10 years ago there would have been a huge uproar about something like that in a Computer game. Fact is, in todays market there really wasnt much made of it at all. Id make the assumption that in todays demographics of players, vulgarity and nudity would be more openly embraced then homosexuality when it comes down to controversial issues. PS: Sorry for responding serious but dont want this topic to become a flame war and after rereading your post, its seems all you did was make false assumptions about players and state your moral outrage in the form of a couple words with out actually explaining your responce at all. PPS: Sorry cant get outta my parents basement as I own my own house. But if they ever reach the age they need to live in my basement Ill make sure I kick them out just for you, hows that? Naaa, wasnt refering to Hentai. Was refering to non porn, but more mature/adult content in RPGs. Have never played a Hentai game and have no plans to ever play one. Leisure Suit Larry was fantastic Not for the nudity but the tounge in cheek humor you could find through out the games Hillarious stuff there But Larry a great example (lol, had forgotten about those games honestly till you mentioned it. Going back to Sions post. Larry wasnt obscene, there was no morale outrage about the games, they sold INSANELY well, and were totally adult material. Closing: Anyways, I got my answer recently anyways. While I dont expect stuff like this to appear in KotOR series as Star Wars has never really embraced vulgarity or nudity (well other then Lei in dancer outfit in part 6). Its pretty appearent that RPGs will be embracing more adult orientated or mature content. I hope developers show the common sence that Bioware did in JE and make any controversial material optional by having a on/off switch or paths that require clear intent by the player to open them so folks that do find stuff like this obscene or what ever never accidently come to see/hear it.

Agree with Guard, Please lock thread Obsidian. If these people want to argue about military and war tell them to go to some political forum out there (there is more then enough for every veiw point).

While im not against a MMORPG KotOR game. The problem comes with sony owning the rights to Star Wars as a MMORPG. I agree that it would be great to have the KotOR system for a MMORPG, Im afraid we stuck with the crap known as SWG for the immediate future anyways.

ROFLMAO! That takes the cake of worst (and most sexist) Idea I have ever heard of to date!!! Im surprised this thread not locked to be honest! And on a more serious note, I think the female PC is quite realistic as its the player playing the character. You create the characters attitude for the most part so is always more realist then the female NPCs. I think what women want is the story to be designed with a female character as the MAIN PC of game (both K1 and K2 were obviously designed with a male character as the hero and female option was added later. While I doubt that will happen (expecially in a Star Wars setting) any time soon as the male demographic is still the mass majority of players, I do think we will start to see more games like JE where companies take the time required to make game unisex. Meaning you can play male/female and NOT tell which it was written for. Star Wars however (games and movies so dont start quoteing unknown EU only a handfull have read) has always protrayed the main hero being male and I doubt that will change anytime soon. Women are empowered and not feabile in Star Wars though, so movies and games have that going for them at least.

Aye same here. I was more then alittle disappointed in K2 when areas I have already been to on Dant in K1 were cut out of the game. I would like to see them always include previously visited areas + new areas for return to planets (Korriban and Dant). That way as each new KotOR game comes out the Universe slowly grows and expands. I dont know if Korriban was really the best planet. All that was cut was inside the tombs (which have already been cleared out in K1) and the Czerka Corp landing pad and office. Not really ALOT of area but still would have been nice to have. Koriban definately has the potential to be the best planet as its a sith planet with possibly many more hidden sith treasures and areas to explore.