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Dragon Age 2


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#61
213374U

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"You are wrong because I say so. Also, my dad can beat up your dad."

Thanks man. Everything is clear now. Next.

#62
Oblarg

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"You are wrong because I say so. Also, my dad can beat up your dad."

Thanks man. Everything is clear now. Next.


Except it's quite relevant - I have a direct source of authority on the subject. You don't - you have speculation.

But good job on looking like a prick.

A good way to look at chess is that it's similar to poker - a level of memorization is needed to predict the outcomes of various moves in various situations, but that's more of a prerequisite which is required to play effectively. The real skill is not in the memorization, and what determines the winner when there are not vast skill gaps involved is not who has memorized more - in poker, you do not get better by memorizing more odds. It's the same in chess - you do not simply improve by memorizing more positions.

Edited by Oblarg, 01 March 2011 - 01:22 AM.


#63
Maria Caliban

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It's fine that you don't like those things. You can do so without suggesting that the people who look forward to DA II and like the changes are the 'lowest common denominator.'

The world is not divided into 'Things I like' and 'Things only stupid people like.'


Do you accept that stupid(-er) people prefer simpler entertainment formulas?

No.

1. Complexity is not sophistication.
2. Intelligence has nothing to do with taste.
3. Good entertainment, whether simple or complex, will tend to appeal to a wide range of people.

Do you accept that the distribution of intelligence in a given sample follows a gaussian distribution?

Sure.

DA2 is, by virtue of being defined by conclusions drawn from customer behavior analysis, a lowest common denominator game.

Except Dragon Age 2 is not 'defined' by DA:O's datamining. It's influenced by it along with a host of other things. Moreover, you can't claim that every statistical minority is governed by intelligence.

We know that 5% of people played dwarves. Am I to assume that only the really smart people did so? Maybe it's actually only the really stupid ones. Or, more likely, whether playing a dwarf appeals to you or not has nothing to do with your IQ.

We know that most people didn't finish the game and that the majority of those that did only played once. Why assume that it's the smart people who finished? Maybe it's the dumb ones that spend 80+ hours in a game with generic environments, simplistic plots and characters, and some painfully tedious combat.

Alternatively, it's possible that the answer to 'how enjoyable do I find this game?' is the product of a host of factors, of which intelligence is merely one.

This doesn't mean DA2 will be a thoroughly unenjoyable piece of **** with no redeeming qualities whatsoever - rather, it means that BioEA would rather serve Whoppers than filet mignons, because demand for the former is bigger and they understandably want to make more money in a business where filet mignons and Whoppers are priced equally.

BioWare has always attempted to get the video game equivalent of a summer blockbuster. They have never been interested in being a 'niche' publisher. They have always attempted to create good games.

Is a summer blockbuster always mindless garbage with no redeeming value? No. A summer blockbuster can be an excellent film.

As for your analogy, if a filet mignon was the same price as a Whopper (or visa versa), I'd argue that more people would go for the filet mignon. A Whopper (and all fast food) is not popular because the average person has poor taste; it's popular because it's cheap and easily accessible.

Edited by Maria Caliban, 01 March 2011 - 01:30 AM.


#64
Oblarg

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Do you accept that the distribution of intelligence in a given sample follows a gaussian distribution?

Sure.


Actually, there's no reason to believe this. It certainly would look normal-ish, but it's not a sampling distribution and thus there's absolutely no reason to believe it actually is a normal distribution - while you can approximate many things fairly well as a normal distribution, there is no magical property of nature that causes all these natural systems to adhere to it - there are simply a lot of distributions which closely resemble a normal distribution.

Edited by Oblarg, 01 March 2011 - 01:34 AM.


#65
sorophx

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Intelligence has nothing to do with taste.

it hasn't? :) I was always under the impression that it had :ermm:

Edited by sorophx, 01 March 2011 - 01:59 AM.


#66
Majek

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Which summer blockbuster in the last decade is also an excellent film?

#67
Tigranes

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Keep it family friendly people, arguments not persons.

#68
pmp10

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Intelligence has nothing to do with taste.

it hasn't? :) I was always under the impression that it had :ermm:

I doubt any serious research was done on the subject.
Especially for active forms of entertainment.
The best I could find was this.

#69
Maria Caliban

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Which summer blockbuster in the last decade is also an excellent film?

It depends on how you want to define blockbuster.

Assuming the narrowest definition possible: Toy Story 3. One of the highest grossing movies of all time, one of only three animated movies to be nominated for Best Picture, and wildly praised by critics as an excellent film.

#70
Ice9

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no. complexity has no inherent value. there is, sadly, a level o' education and experience that blinds an individual to the appreciation o' simplicity. as we has grown older and more experienced, we has gained greater appreciation for the elegance that accompanies enlightened simplicity. chess and go, as examples, is not terribly complex games. mastery o' such simple games can takes a lifetime o' dedication. produce endless wonder and challenge. is perhaps ironic that the genuine educated man and the child may takes joy from simplicity that eludes the apprentice or journeyman scholar.

*shrug*

is a matter o' opinion and taste, but am gonna suggest that derision o' simplicity is the result o' hubris born o' ignorance... lack o' experience and education.

HA! Good Fun!


Gromnir, old pal, I'm kind of surprised to see this from you. At your worst (best?) you resemble a chapter of Ulysses.

Which summer blockbuster in the last decade is also an excellent film?


For starters, I'd go with The Dark Knight. It is an incredibly well made film.

Getting a bit off the subject matter here, but the scope of the intended audience has no bearing on whether something should be considered art or even good art; it is possible to appeal to the masses and still be great art. Look at religious iconography and other art in that vein. Renaissance religious art like the Sistine Chapel's ceiling has probably had just about as large as an effect on Western art as anything before it or after it.

As for whether or not DA2's attempt at widening its target audience is a good thing, seeing as none of us have played it yet, is still up in the air. My early impressions, however, are less than positive.

#71
213374U

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A good way to look at chess is that it's similar to poker - a level of memorization is needed to predict the outcomes of various moves in various situations, but that's more of a prerequisite which is required to play effectively. The real skill is not in the memorization, and what determines the winner when there are not vast skill gaps involved is not who has memorized more - in poker, you do not get better by memorizing more odds. It's the same in chess - you do not simply improve by memorizing more positions.

Hmm, no. Poker is a completely different game with a strong component of randomness and where body language reading can provide the edge. Also, previous hands don't directly define subsequent rounds and so patterns are much less important. I'm hard pressed to think of a worse game you could have chosen to compare with.

At any rate, I don't see how being a FIDE master (and I'm going to grant the benefit of doubt and assume you're not just pulling stuff out your ass) is interchangeable with being a cognitive scientist and therefore an authority on the matter. Would you let Lance Armstrong perform heart surgery on you? Perhaps you'd like to cite some actual authorities. You know, so you have something more solid to stand on than "bull**** moran" and "no U".

http://www.amazon.co...89TJCB47VF1HDQ9

^Not an academic piece by any means, but illustrates what I'm saying. See, I'm not just "speculating".

Is pattern recognition "memory" in the same sense as reciting a bunch of historical dates? Probably not. Is it "reasoning" in the sense of solving problems one has no familiarity with? Nope, it's not that either. I was wrong to say there's no skill involved in playing chess. Mostly because I can't very well define what constitutes "skill", without falling back to the notion of success and building on top of that. And since some players consistently win and others consistently lose, there is definitely a degree of "skill" involved. Whatever that may be.


1. Complexity is not sophistication.

Irrelevant. Apples aren't oranges. Grom already made this argument, btw. Read the chess discussion part and how sophistication isn't necessary for complexity. DA2, judging from the demo, is neither sophisticated nor complex.


2. Intelligence has nothing to do with taste.

[citation needed]

I'm inclined to believe otherwise, given that intelligence is an important factor in a person's character.

http://booksthatmakeyoudumb.virgil.gr/ (not to be taken too seriously!)


3. Good entertainment, whether simple or complex, will tend to appeal to a wide range of people.

"No true Scotsman..."

It's also circular logic. Good entertainment will attract many people. It attracts many people because it's good. That says very little about the quality of whatever it is you're talking about.


Except Dragon Age 2 is not 'defined' by DA:O's datamining. It's influenced by it along with a host of other things.

Semantics. "Defined" vs "influenced", "affected" and "reflected on". Pivotal design decisions affect the essence of a game. Traditional RPG conventions were getting in the way of the enjoyment of the game for many people, as revealed by datamining, so they had to go. Or so said Laidlaw.


We know that most people didn't finish the game and that the majority of those that did only played once. Why assume that it's the smart people who finished? Maybe it's the dumb ones that spend 80+ hours in a game with generic environments, simplistic plots and characters, and some painfully tedious combat.

Good point. Maybe indeed. So then we're left with Grom's point that Bio simply has drawn all the wrong conclusions, in light of their changes to the game. Heh.

#72
Nepenthe

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:ermm: :lol:

Happily, my enjoyment of things is not affected by what some arrogant **** on the internet thinks. I know it does matter to some people, one reason why some friends of mine avoid this place like the plague.

So, anyway, they're now apparently running some new promo (after apparently hitting the required 1 mil downloads), this time wanting facebook "shares" or something. Not gonna contribute.

Edited by Nepenthe, 01 March 2011 - 04:25 AM.


#73
sorophx

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The best I could find was this.

hah, very amusing, thanks :ermm:

#74
Malcador

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Happily, my enjoyment of things is not affected by what some arrogant **** on the internet thinks. I know it does matter to some people, one reason why some friends of mine avoid this place like the plague.


Must suck being better than this place eh ? :ermm:


Eh, in terms of DA2 being LCD-fare, it doesn't look that way as much as..say Bulletstorm or COD4. Doesn't look like passively rolling to victory, at least gameplay wise. The plot and characters, well, who expects much from games regarding these at this time. Didn't know that they datamined, kind of nice to spied on I suppose heh, but would be cool to see a list of the data they gathered.

#75
Nepenthe

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Eh, in terms of DA2 being LCD-fare, it doesn't look that way as much as..say Bulletstorm or COD4. Doesn't look like passively rolling to victory, at least gameplay wise. The plot and characters, well, who expects much from games regarding these at this time. Didn't know that they datamined, kind of nice to spied on I suppose heh, but would be cool to see a list of the data they gathered.


I'd say that the complete list probably qualifies as a trade secret (and I wouldn't be surprised if more than one competitor was interested in what exactly is being recorded), but here's what's been released: http://www.destructo...ng-188362.phtml

#76
Malcador

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Trade secret ? Heh. Seeing that ~50% didn't finish the game is amusing though. How can you blame them for simplifying stuff, hah.

#77
Nepenthe

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Trade secret ? Heh. Seeing that ~50% didn't finish the game is amusing though. How can you blame them for simplifying stuff, hah.

Too bad I, for one, have absolutely no idea what the average completion % is.

#78
Gfted1

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You should try reading your own link.

#79
Nepenthe

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You should try reading your own link.

... for games in general?

#80
213374U

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Happily, my enjoyment of things is not affected by what some arrogant **** on the internet thinks. I know it does matter to some people, one reason why some friends of mine avoid this place like the plague.

Good to know that you can handle the whole Obsidz boards experience. Funny though, that you felt the need to take a potshot and call names. Shows how strongly you don't care.




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