Rogue rework thread

[dunehunter]

I've made the suggesions below to make rogue better in compare with other classes.

• rework backstab so it now works for every attacks in the first 0.5 second out of stealth or invisible; (can backstab with offhand fast weapon, or even heavy one hands if Dex is high)
• remove Strike the bell and Wither strike. These are absolutely meanless right now. Cripple Strike is all you need for interrupting.
• Smoke veil, cost reduce from 2 to 1;
• Smoke clouds, add invisible because it is an upgraded version of Smoke veil, also reduce recovery time from 4 to 3 to make it consistent with Smoke veil;
• Shadowing beyond, cost reduce from 3 to 2, same as that paralysis upgrade version;
• Dirty fighting, increase the conversion rate from 10% -> 20%;
• add new self-buff active ability 'Reckless assault': +10 accuracy, -20% recovery time, -10 deflection, duration lasts as long as you hit someone within 5 seconds, can have two upgrade version, one remove malus, one gives more hit to crit convert;
• add new self-buff ability like poison weapon which add +30% corrode lash to weapon attacks for like 15 second;
• add new passive ability Light weapon mastery: +1 penetration with light weapons, +50% backstab damage with light weapons.

In summary I suggest reduce the cost of rogue abiities, remove useless ones and add more self-buff and passive abilities to them.

Edited April 7, 2018 by dunehunter

[IndiraLightfoot]

Nice list!

 

IIRC, Josh vision for rogue was the big damage dealer in PoE - not just some strike once from the shadows assassin - so I'd like to see rogue get some juicy benefits or some cool subclass, perhaps letting them become dual-wielding masters and single-weapon-without-a-shield pros. Perhaps the classic toxin package should be better applied to this class, and especially to some subclass.

And of course, bonuses to the use and the effects of all of them bombs.

[dunehunter]

Nice list!

 

IIRC, Josh vision for rogue was the big damage dealer in PoE - not just some strike once from the shadows assassin - so I'd like to see rogue get some juicy benefits or some cool subclass, perhaps letting them become dual-wielding masters and single-weapon-without-a-shield pros. Perhaps the classic toxin package should be better applied to this class, and especially to some subclass.

And of course, bonuses to the use and the effects of all of them bombs.

 

Welcome to add more idea/talents into the list!

[Aramintai]

I agree with everything, but I wish Escape ability along with its derivatives (like Shadowing Beyond) had a cost of 1. It's rogue's bread and butter ability to get out of harm's way, since he's so squishy and needs to constantly position himself to do backstabs.

 

Also, I think to make single class rogue be more competitive with multiclass it needs some more damage dealing passives from the fighter tree like Bloody Slaughter and Confident Aim. Fighter/Rogue multiclass looks like one of the most popular options so if you opt to multiclass into that these abilities won't overlap as fighter tree already has them. But single class rogue may benefit from that as his striker role seems to be usurped by fighters right now.

[Aramintai]

Nice list!

 

IIRC, Josh vision for rogue was the big damage dealer in PoE - not just some strike once from the shadows assassin - so I'd like to see rogue get some juicy benefits or some cool subclass, perhaps letting them become dual-wielding masters and single-weapon-without-a-shield pros. Perhaps the classic toxin package should be better applied to this class, and especially to some subclass.

And of course, bonuses to the use and the effects of all of them bombs.

I like that too, especially about poisons. There was an ability in POE1 about coating weapons with poison to do damage over time. Wonder where that one went in POE2...

[dunehunter]

I agree with everything, but I wish Escape ability along with its derivatives (like Shadowing Beyond) had a cost of 1. It's rogue's bread and butter ability to get out of harm's way, since he's so squishy and needs to constantly position himself to do backstabs.

 

Also, I think to make single class rogue be more competitive with multiclass it needs some more damage dealing passives from the fighter tree like Bloody Slaughter and Confident Aim. Fighter/Rogue multiclass looks like one of the most popular options so if you opt to multiclass into that these abilities won't overlap as fighter tree already has them. But single class rogue may benefit from that as his striker role seems to be usurped by fighters right now.

 

Well Shadowing Beyond is like Escape + Smoke Veil + 0 recovery time, so it gonna be too good if has a cost of 1 imo

[theBalthazar]

Rogue have one problem : he is competing with the power of some multiclasses.

 

And question : why he is not one of the first choice for the multiclass ? Because it is difficult for him to found his place with an another class because he doesn't offer strong passive or buff.

 

The main advantage of fighter for example, is his buff overtime.

 

Finally, rogue only add... few active abilities ? (And not the best...) Often a mandatory for trigger is own weapons and passives with an affliction (+50% when there is an affliction) So the main purpose is to add an interresting modal (propositions of dune are all good) or add a buff overtime like disciplined strike.

 

For single class, down all cost at 3 to 2, if not this is frankly unreal and stupid. and smoke to 1.

 

Don't forget 2 power source as a value of two times 1 power source... It is perhaps obvious said like that, but it is glaring in game.

 

3 power source must be extremely powerful. Like strong spells AoE instant damage, level 18-20...

Edited April 7, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Farsha]

add 1. Why the backstab rework? You can use escape in stealth (it does not break it) and use melee attack for the dmg bonus before you are detected just don't jump infront of enemy. I'm pretty sure it works fine. Then smoke vail and backstab again. This was not posible in POE1 but with stealth skill at like 4 it si perfectly doable in Deadfire. Only thing I'm not sure that both attacks of Full attack abilites (dual-wield) trigger with the bonus. I would say from what I've seen that only the first strike does, which I'd say is a bug.

Add 2. yea those 2 are just plain inferrior to cripling strike atm (mainly due to cost efficiency)

add 5. Shadowing beyond is too expensive I agree. escape + smoke veil has same resource cost together (3) and they can be used together to same effect or separately for more efficient invis with no movement. So why ever take shadowing, 3 is a big cost.

Played Swashbuckler (assasin/blackjacket) alot in Beta I like the micro intense gameplay a lot. Escape not causing recovery is really great fun to fool around with.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Farsha

[dunehunter]

add 1. Why the backstab rework? You can use escape in stealth (it does not break it) and use melee attack for the dmg bonus before you are detected just don't jump infront of enemy. I'm pretty sure it works fine. Then smoke vail and backstab again. This was not posible in POE1 but with stealth skill at like 4 it si perfectly doable in Deadfire.

 

Add 2. yea those 2 are just plain inferrior to cripling strike atm (mainly due to cost efficiency)

 

add 5. Shadowing beyond is too expensive I agree. escape + smoke vail has same resource cost together (3) and the can be used separately or together to same effect or separately. So why ever take shadowing, 3 is a big cost.

 

Played Swashbuckler (assisn/blackjacket) alot in Beta I like the micro intense gameplay a lot. Escape not causing recovery is really great fun to fool around with.

 

For answer 1, I post another thread to explain it, but again because 1) blunderbuss is not working for backstab right now, only 1st projection of it will be considered as backstab; 2) it makes light weapon pretty inferior for backstabbing.

 

For answer 2, in old betas, strike the bell was the only rogue ability that interrupt, now all rogue ablities interrupt, so it becomes pointless

 

For answer 5, yep shadowing beyond is too expensive.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I'd suggest giving Rogues an ability that lets them cancel target's Inspirations.

 

The way it currently works, Inspirations on a stat always overwrite Afflictions on that stat, even if an affliction is cast later.

 

This sorta slants the balance away from debuffing classes because buffing classes can make them irrelevant.

 

I'd suggest therefore giving Rogues a single-target version of the mage spell Arcane Dampener. Wipe target Inspirations so that they can then be re-debuffed.

[dunehunter]

I'd suggest giving Rogues an ability that lets them cancel target's Inspirations.

 

The way it currently works, Inspirations on a stat always overwrite Afflictions on that stat, even if an affliction is cast later.

 

This sorta slants the balance away from debuffing classes because buffing classes can make them irrelevant.

 

I'd suggest therefore giving Rogues a single-target version of the mage spell Arcane Dampener. Wipe target Inspirations so that they can then be re-debuffed.

 

Aren't affliction also remove target inspiration?

 

Also there was a single target version of Arcane Dampener in PoE 1, it is called Deprived the Unworthy and its a paladin ability I remeber it is very effective when combine with Sworn Enemy to remove Minor Avatar from enemy priest who has high will defense.

[dunehunter]

Duplicated post. 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by dunehunter

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

 

Aren't affliction also remove target inspiration?

 

Also there was a single target version of Arcane Dampener in PoE 1, it is called Deprived the Unworthy and its a paladin ability I remeber it is very effective when combine with Sworn Enemy to remove Minor Avatar from enemy priest who has high will defense.

 

 

https://i.imgur.com/PoARIpV.jpg

 

^ SA quote from Sawyer I got from him yesterday.

 

Deprive the Unworthy doesn't seem to be in the previously-mined list of abilities:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire-beta-released-coming-may-8th.119184/page-159#post-5503802

 

I wouldn't mind seeing it return for paladins either. There should be a way to "counter" inspirations, and it shouldn't be locked behind just one class (i..e, wizards).

Edited April 7, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Farsha]

 

 

 

For answer 1, I post another thread to explain it, but again because 1) blunderbuss is not working for backstab right now, only 1st projection of it will be considered as backstab; 2) it makes light weapon pretty inferior for backstabbing.

 

 

 

 

ahaa, I see that must be the same with full attack when dualwielding. It's one ability but strikes come 1 at a time, so backstab only triggers once. Same as the blunderbuss with many projectiles, only 1 projectile counts.  So worst scenario is - blunderbuss dualwield full attack from stealth. I actually tried it it does nothing you are right.

Yea they should fix it, though that backtab with dual blundebusses full attack + disciplined strikes, if it's gonna ever work, it's gonna oneshot anything :D

Edited April 7, 2018 by Farsha

[MaxQuest]

I've made the suggesions below to make rogue better in compare with other classes.

• rework backstab so it now works for every attacks in the first 2 second out of stealth or invisible;
• remove Strike the bell and Wither strike. These are absolutely meanless right now. Cripple Strike is all you need for interrupting.
• Smoke veil, cost reduce from 2 to 1;
• Smoke clouds, add invisible because it is an upgraded version of Smoke veil, also reduce recovery time from 4 to 3 to make it consistent with Smoke veil;
• Shadowing beyond, cost reduce from 3 to 2, same as that paralysis upgrade version;
• Dirty fighting, increase the conversion rate from 10% -> 20%;
• add new active ability 'Reckless assault': +10 accuracy, -20% recovery time, -10 deflection, duration lasts as long as you hit someone within 5 seconds;
• add new passive ability Light weapon mastery: +1 penetration with light weapons, +50% backstab damage with light weapons.

Completely agree with all the points, except the first which I have few doubts about: specifically if a rogue dual-wields blunderbusses, should he backstab with both? I'd prefer the proposed 2s grace period be reduced to 0.5s. This way if you want to backstab with offhand too, you have to invest into action speed stuff. Edited April 7, 2018 by MaxQuest

[dunehunter]

Yeah I agree, a 0.5 sec window makes better sense. Add to the upper post.

Edited April 7, 2018 by dunehunter

[Mack]

A lot of these suggestions, though not all, seem backstab-centric. I think we should bear in mind that the rogue's flagship ability is sneak attack, not backstab. Frequent backstabbing is a certain build and playstyle (no doubt it will be a popular one) but if the class needs a rework it shouldn't be in service of better backstabs.

 

edit: I'm not saying the suggestions are bad but trying to encourage a wider perspective on reworking rogues

Edited April 7, 2018 by Mack

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

A lot of these suggestions, though not all, seem backstab-centric. I think we should bear in mind that the rogue's flagship ability is sneak attack, not backstab. Frequent backstabbing is a certain build and playstyle (no doubt it will be a popular one) but if the class needs a rework it shouldn't be in service of better backstabs.

 

edit: I'm not saying the suggestions are bad but trying to encourage a wider perspective on reworking rogues

 

Yeah, that's part of why I think that a "remove inspirations" ability is so important. 

 

One thing Josh said in the stream yesterday is that there's a late-game ability for Fighters that's just "basic inspiration, in every stat." Note that this makes the fighter immune to sneak attack, at least in a 1v1 situation (where the Rogue can't get Flanked). 

 

Rogues need a way to wipe inspirations.

 

EDIT:

 

replace strike the bell with an ability of the same name that removes all inspirations from the target

 

each of the three higher level iterations then adds a different affliction effect (stun, blind, whatever)

Edited April 7, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[dunehunter]

The thread is not just about rework backstabbing, it suggests reduce ability cost and add more self-buff and passive to rogue to make them more competitive with other DPS classes too.

 

Also I wish deathblow to work for spells as it was in PoE 1, I remember Boeroer’s apprentice wizard build and I like it.

Edited April 7, 2018 by dunehunter

[dunehunter]

Deleted

Edited April 7, 2018 by dunehunter

[theBalthazar]

If Obsidian is worried about too high bonus with one ability (20 % proposition of dune), he can pick an old idea :

 

Dirty fighting

+15 % hit to crit.

 

Vicious fighting (in the same style of '+50 % with second ability' : )

+10 % hit to crit

 

= 25 % hit to crit. Seems legit for a passive with 2 ability points.

Edited April 7, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Farsha]

Completely agree with all the points, except the first which I have few doubts about: specifically if a rogue dual-wields blunderbusses, should he backstab with both? I'd prefer the proposed 2s grace period be reduced to 0.5s. This way if you want to backstab with offhand too, you have to invest into action speed stuff.

 

Well, that is the question if full attack ability should trigger backstab for both attacks when dual-wielding. Thing is, if it does not than backstab is really only good with two-handed wepons, which is a problem.

Currently it does not, so is better to use primary attack that adds dmg mulplier (like Mule kick or flames of devotion) when triggering backtab. Cause it will do more dmg than Full attack.

 

A agree that backstab full attack with 2 blundebusses would be brutal, on the other hand with most dual-wielding wepons it would be just fine.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Farsha

[gGeorg]

Occasional invis by Smoke veil is nice ninja factor.

However, ...

I am missing agile weasel runner skill

Quicksilver rush :

- a combat movement self buff (stride) with added disengage, reflex bonus (+20 to all)

- buff should last about 5s

Special: If rogue is not hit until end of this self buff, then guile is payback.

 

Yes I am aware that proper using this sill is required a high-micro.

 

In case of rogue I would like to see insane reflex tricks:

Modal skill On/Off >>> Living on the edge:

1st part Rogue auto-consume 1 guile, to escape an AOE reflex attack which would otherwise hit him.

e.g. rogue does all the defensive rolls as usual, in case it would land, he consumes the guile so he escapes anyway

(imagine an Empowered fireball aimed at Epic rogue, he will make an acrobatic super-move and run out of inferno with sparks in hair and madly laughter. that is my rouge :D )

2nd part Rogue auto-consume 1 guile, to avoid a mortal blow from weapon (melee, ranged) which would otherwise kill him.

e.g. rogue does all the defensive rolls as usual, in case  the mortal blow hit him, he consumes the guile so he escapes anyway. interesting consequence>> rogue killed with the "Living on the edge" skill turned on will have all guile consumed

 

This would give a rogue adrenaline, living on the edge flavor

Edited April 9, 2018 by gGeorg

[JFutral]

I still want to throw in a request to either overhaul traps or ditch them. If the rogue (or Hunter or Trapper, or Bounty Hunter or Scout) isn't a traps master, then there really is nothing gained by keeping Traps around, other than to one shot PCs.

 

Joe

[PatrioticChief]

I still want to throw in a request to either overhaul traps or ditch them. If the rogue (or Hunter or Trapper, or Bounty Hunter or Scout) isn't a traps master, then there really is nothing gained by keeping Traps around, other than to one shot PCs.

 

Joe

 

I wouldn't hold my breath on that even if you are right.