What does everyone think about the new casting system?

[master guardian]

This thread will be helpful for those who have only recently started looking at the game or playing the BETA.

 

Can those of you who have used it extensively on the beta or discussed it for length chime in with your experiences/ thoughts?

 

For those just coming in another user posted this:

 

1) per rest is gone, which means you can spam spells in every fight, however, you are limited to casting 2 spells per spell level. 

2) to compensate, now spells take time to cast. For example, in current build it takes 6 seconds to cast fireball.

3) in addition to that you can only learn spells when you level up. Wizards get grimoires which can expand their repertoire up to extra 2 spells per level but you can’t edit grimoires, so it’s very likely that one grimoire will contain spells which you already know or can’t cast due to subclass restrictions limiting its usefulness. Druids&Priest gain free extra spell every power level based on their subclass. (Personal note: small selection of spells makes singleclass spellcasters feel very restricted. It is confirmed that singleclass characters will get an addition talents [spells] to pick, when reaching new power level, however, there will be passives to consider as well)

4) new armour/penetration system applies to spells as well, so it’s possible to spend couple seconds casting spell, only to see multiple NO PEN messages and do a fraction of base damage, though it is not nearly as bad, as it was in beta1. 

5) in current beta build (though it is likely to be changed for 1.0 release, if Josh’s Tumblr posts are to be trusted) strength governs weapon damage, while healing&magic damage has been moved to resolve. That makes spellcasters less flexible in combat and encourages either a specialised weapon build, or constant casting. 

[rjshae]

I'm waiting to see how it plays out, but I suspect I'll find it too restrictive. They could have switched to a spell point system and kept the casting times as they were. That would also allow a more diverse selection of spells that are better adaptable to the conditions.

[master guardian]

yeah im thinking why would they reduce a casters options and make the game less strategic??

 

I dont know if you would call chaincasting shadowflame strategy though haha 

 

Actaully if you look at it from that persective maybe these new changes will be for the better off

 

no more chaincasting shadowflame, confusion ect....

Edited March 19, 2018 by master guardian

[Tattyblue]

I dislike the change immensely. Feels like someone hates people casting spells more then a few times per fight and created a system just to stop spell spam. Many trash fights can be over before a 6 second spell can cast. Right now if this system is in the game when its released, I will go from having 4 spell casters in my party like I did  in Pillars to having at most one.

[master guardian]

yep they got the absolute crap nerfed out of them (casters)

 

hopefully the extended release date reflects OBS reverting the game back to the old casting system

Edited March 19, 2018 by master guardian

[Lord_Mord]

 

no more chaincasting shadowflame, confusion ect....

 

I also think, that's a good thing. I can't stand those brainless fireworks.

 

 

 

Many trash fights can be over before a 6 second spell can cast.

 

The promise for Deadfire was: No more trashfights. In any case you can assume that they playtested that. I don't think the guys at Obsidian are dumb.

 

 

 

yeah im thinking why would they reduce a casters options and make the game less strategic??

You are talking about the grimoire and level up stuff, I guess? Personally I like it. As much as I enjoy having as much spells as I can possibly get, in PoE that wasn't much fun anymore, as you could very easily get all of them. No difficult choices, no compromise, basically every caster was the same. Your enemies often were very specialised, elemental mages and the like, so I asked myself: why? Why do they have just a few spells, when it's so easy to get them all? I like specialized casters, it gives them kind of an academic feel.

What I would like to have is a caster that can use more different spells at once, but for a price. You know, like the third weapon set ability.

[Wormerine]

Played quite a bit of beta, recently finished playthrough of BG1&2 and started PoE1 playthrough with a mage character.

 

While the Deadfire’s casting system has its issues I believe it is the best system for spellcasters yet. Per rest system discourages using spells which means it gives you more options which you never use. I didnt find that an access wider range of spells means using more of them. While spells spellcasters can learn are more limited, let’s not forget there are scrolls, which can be use by anyone who invests in arcana. In Deadfire i am regularly capable of cast quite a few spells befor combat is done. I understand that there are some completely broken multiclass builds, but those need an attention first.

 

PoE1 spellcasters have a habit of making the fight trivial when using spells, or being not very interesting when spamming weapon attack. I find per-rest discourages experimentation leading to me casting the same spells, if they keep working. Cipher was my favourite spellcasters in PoE and I am glad to see that Deadfire aims to improve in other areas as well.

[DexGames]

Non-Exhaustive List of what they've done :

• They cut half the spells from the first game.
• They cut the Grimoire Custumization.
• Two Spells per Lvl, previously Four.
• Spells that remain are made all Per-Encounter. [spamfest each Fight] 
• Etc... [Goes on & on]

But it's apparentely all considered an Improvement.

  ...  .

 

EDIT : It's a whole New Combat System, compared to what it was in the 1st Pillars.

& I can deal with it... But I don't like it, at all.

[i prefer Pillars of Eternity "Global Combat System" a Thousand Times more than Deadfire's]

Edited March 19, 2018 by DexGames

[master guardian]

Non-Exhaustive List of what they've done :

• They cut half the spells from the first game.
• They cut the Grimoire Custumization.
• Two Spells per Lvl, previously Four.
• Spells that remain are made all Per-Encounter. [spamfest each Fight] 
• Etc... [Goes on & on]

But it's apparentely all considered an Improvement.

  ...  .

 

EDIT : It's a whole New Combat System, compared to what it was in the 1st Pillars.

& I can deal with it... But I don't like it, at all.

[i prefer Pillars of Eternity "Global Combat System" a Thousand Times more than Deadfire's]

what do you mean by they have cut half the spells from the first game?

 

surely they have not done this and if they did they would add new ones to compensate

[Starwars]

Some of these changes are my my biggest pet peeves with the game and it does not translate into a gameplay loop which I enjoy much unfortunately. Definitely not saying that there was no way to improve upon PoE1 per-rest system but for me it did at least serve to make spellcasters sort of... feel a bit unique. Yes, a lot of people hold on to the spells to be sure but for me it's just worth it, especially when you get into a difficult encounter and you use your Wizard to just unload everything. It's a nice feeling and it serves to make them feel a bit special.

Making everything per-encounter reduces the feeling of uniqueness and makes everything feel way more "controlled" the way it's designed.

 

The "strategic" layer of PoE isn't anything to write home about but it is at least one more layer to consider and I find that alone does wonders for how the game unfolds, the way the game plays and the way the game feels. I would've loved to see that expanded, but... alas.

 

Empower is a thing of course.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Starwars

[alexis13]

They are catering to idiots and watering down the game and I've no idea why.

 

It's already been backed.

 

If they wanna make a ****ty watered down game they shoulda presented it as such, hell just make an FPS and let idiots back it.

 

Why are we, who wern't complaining about the old system getting this ****ty idiot deal?

 

Don't fix what ain't broke, people complained about the companions and that's it.

Edited March 19, 2018 by alexis13

[MortyTheGobbo]

I'm playing Pillars 1 right now as a druid, and I already can't wait for Deadfire to get rid of per-rest spells. Whatever issues Deadfire's system might have, per-rest spells are just the worst.

[alexis13]

Non-Exhaustive List of what they've done :

• They cut half the spells from the first game.
• They cut the Grimoire Custumization.
• Two Spells per Lvl, previously Four.
• Spells that remain are made all Per-Encounter. [spamfest each Fight] 
• Etc... [Goes on & on]

But it's apparentely all considered an Improvement.

  ...  .

 

EDIT : It's a whole New Combat System, compared to what it was in the 1st Pillars.

& I can deal with it... But I don't like it, at all.

[i prefer Pillars of Eternity "Global Combat System" a Thousand Times more than Deadfire's]

I don't like it at all and I can't deal with it either, I've not got much in my life as it is.

[alexis13]

Played quite a bit of beta, recently finished playthrough of BG1&2 and started PoE1 playthrough with a mage character.

 

While the Deadfire’s casting system has its issues I believe it is the best system for spellcasters yet. Per rest system discourages using spells which means it gives you more options which you never use. I didnt find that an access wider range of spells means using more of them. While spells spellcasters can learn are more limited, let’s not forget there are scrolls, which can be use by anyone who invests in arcana. In Deadfire i am regularly capable of cast quite a few spells befor combat is done. I understand that there are some completely broken multiclass builds, but those need an attention first.

 

PoE1 spellcasters have a habit of making the fight trivial when using spells, or being not very interesting when spamming weapon attack. I find per-rest discourages experimentation leading to me casting the same spells, if they keep working. Cipher was my favourite spellcasters in PoE and I am glad to see that Deadfire aims to improve in other areas as well.

Yeah good old scrolls, so the whole worth of my class can be given to any other char, for infinite value if you get enough of them.

 

Being a wizard don't suck ass at all, I solod the adra dragon on path of the damned whilst everyone was whining like a baby about her for months after I and two other people had done it.

 

But every time I fought her, about 95% of the time I depleted every single spell I had and just beat her by the skin of my teeth, and the other 5% I had about 2 spells left.

 

This new system will have me substantially weaker each battle, gaining per encounter spells and arcane blast at high levels was enough to blast through trash fights, this system is just gonna make mages less versatile and have less powerful but valuable resources (which is meant to be their main thing!)

 

You being too afraid to use your spells is your problem, if you got hoarder syndrome it's down to your own greed, that's like saying I don't wanna shoot a gun at my enemies cause it's got bullets.

Edited March 19, 2018 by alexis13

[bleedthefreak]

I agree per-rest spells and abilities are worse than being able to cut loose every fight.

 

But I also agree I would like my spell casters to have more variety and it's hard to pick something like Bulwark of the Elements when you'll only have a few spells in a given slot. 

 

Generally, I like the new system, but it has some gaps in the mechanics I'm hoping get addressed in some fashion (either by mid- and high-level play, additional ability options for spell casters that aren't in the current ability trees, items, and etc.).

[Wormerine]

• Two Spells per Lvl, previously Four.

That's not correct:

 

At the current state priest and druids gain three spells per spell level (assuming you always pick the highest level possible: 2 choices + one from subclass) and 3-4 in case of wizards (2 chosen + 0-2 from grimoire).

 

While it is difficult to judge I would hope for some way to craft at least one custom grimoire late into the game. 

 

I didnt' compare PoE1 spells to Deadfire spell (mostly because spell trees are not complete so it seems like a fools errand right now), but is there something specific you noticed is missing? More doesn't necessarly mean better. BG2 had over 100 spells but many of them were on repeat. In PoE many spells were designed to counter one specific affiction. Personally I didn't notice anything specific missing as of yet.

 

EDIT: We know single class characters will get extra talent to spend per powerlevel, which means potential 5 spells per spell level for wizards and 4 spells per spell level for priests&druids. Seems fine to me.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Wormerine

[alexis13]

@Lord_Mord

 

"I enjoy having as much spells as I can possibly get, in PoE that wasn't much fun anymore, as you could very easily get all of them. No difficult choices, no compromise, basically every caster was the same."

 

You could get 4 different spells a spell level, you could be rocking 20, at least at level 1 in D&D and it only started to get to about 4 around level 8 spells.

 

I often found myself compromising, and spoiled for choice and maing hard choices with my spells in POE, you maybe can switch grimoires but you may aswell just switch ur spells and camp, seems like a nonsense argument to me.

 

There were a very few spell levels i recall their being little interesting choices, i can't remmeber specifically but maybe it was like  the 4th or 5th level spells or something, but that is it.

[Wormerine]

Being a wizard don't suck ass at all, I solod the adra dragon on path of the damned whilst everyone was whining like a baby about her for months after I and two other people had done it.

 

But every time I fought her, about 95% of the time I depleted every single spell I had and just beat her by the skin of my teeth, and the other 5% I had about 2 spells left.

 

This new system will have me substantially weaker each battle, gaining per encounter spells and arcane blast at high levels was enough to blast through trash fights, this system is just gonna make mages less versatile and have less powerful but valuable resources (which is meant to be their main thing!)

 

You being too afraid to use your spells is your problem, if you got hoarder syndrome it's down to your own greed, that's like saying I don't wanna shoot my gun at my enemies cause it's got bullets.

I think you just pointed out one of the biggest issues PoE1 spellcasters had - its a god class if you use it. PoE is a team based game - classes are there to support and fill each other. Spellcasters were in this weird spot that when you use them they are the best, but you are actively discouraged from using it. Its not my probem - its design problem. System rewards using as little spells as possible per enocunter. If you can win a fight without casting a spell you should do just that. 

 

I wasn't talking about the most difficult fights in the game - sure I will cast a lot of spells during key encounters like Adra Dragon. But those encounters are pretty much the only places you will have to use spells. Deadfire makes spellcasters consistant. They are still good but they are good in everyfight, unlike PoE1 when they are weak in most fights and godlike in a few.

[alexis13]

Just so everyone is on the same page, along with arcane blast YOU COULD LEARN PER ENCOUNTER SPELLS AT HIGH LEVEL THAT WOULD BE MORE THAN ENOUGH FOR WEAKER ENEMIES. (this also felt like a really cool thing to earn, using per rest spells all game, like you had reached a new platau in spell casting, now not only is that feeling gone, but spells are cheapened)

 

Whilst also having your full larger/more diverse grimoire of per rest spells for really tough fights, we already had the best of both worlds, except you earned it and it felt more justified.

 

This new system just feels cheap and illogical.

[alexis13]

 

Being a wizard don't suck ass at all, I solod the adra dragon on path of the damned whilst everyone was whining like a baby about her for months after I and two other people had done it.

 

But every time I fought her, about 95% of the time I depleted every single spell I had and just beat her by the skin of my teeth, and the other 5% I had about 2 spells left.

 

This new system will have me substantially weaker each battle, gaining per encounter spells and arcane blast at high levels was enough to blast through trash fights, this system is just gonna make mages less versatile and have less powerful but valuable resources (which is meant to be their main thing!)

 

You being too afraid to use your spells is your problem, if you got hoarder syndrome it's down to your own greed, that's like saying I don't wanna shoot my gun at my enemies cause it's got bullets.

I think you just pointed out one of the biggest issues PoE1 spellcasters had - its a god class if you use it. PoE is a team based game - classes are there to support and fill each other. Spellcasters were in this weird spot that when you use them they are the best, but you are actively discouraged from using it. Its not my probem - its design problem. System rewards using as little spells as possible per enocunter. If you can win a fight without casting a spell you should do just that. 

 

I wasn't talking about the most difficult fights in the game - sure I will cast a lot of spells during key encounters like Adra Dragon. But those encounters are pretty much the only places you will have to use spells. Deadfire makes spellcasters consistant. They are still good but they are good in everyfight, unlike PoE1 when they are weak in most fights and godlike in a few.

 

The other two who beat the adra dragon was a Paladin and the other was a priest, and tbh they both did it more effectively than me, the paladin was safer and was in control the whole fight, never going below 100% all fight and the priest literally insta'd it.

 

Whilst as I said, it was always the skin of my teeth every time I reloaded and fought her again for fun, always totally depleting everything each time, and I also got low a lot, and almost always died at least once, having to use the self-revive ring each time.

 

Also this wasn't just the base wizards power, I had a really unique and focused build, from my base-stats, items and talents, I wouldn't have even came close to killing her and would have died instantly if I didn't build my char the way I did (which was similar to the paladin just less effective), so it wasn't down the wizard class, it was just my unique build.

 

So I disagree with that.

Edited March 19, 2018 by alexis13

[MortyTheGobbo]

Just so everyone is on the same page, along with arcane blast YOU COULD LEARN PER ENCOUNTER SPELLS AT HIGH LEVEL THAT WOULD BE MORE THAN ENOUGH FOR WEAKER ENEMIES. (this also felt like a really cool thing to earn, using per rest spells all game, like you had reached a new platau in spell casting, now not only is that feeling gone, but spells are cheapened)

 

Whilst also having your full larger/more diverse grimoire of per rest spells for really tough fights, we already had the best of both worlds, except you earned it and it felt more justified.

 

This new system just feels cheap and illogical.

 

And that's not a good thing. Being able to mop up weaker enemies with per-encounter spells and sitting on tactical nukes for harder fights is hopelessly imbalanced. It might be different if every class had the same measure of per-rest and per-encounter abilities, but that wasn't the case.

[alexis13]

It worked for baldur's gate, and pretty much every other RPG.

 

It's ridiculous and breaks my suspencion of disbelief to see many npc mages running around like gods, ascending to lichdom and what-have-you yet our wolves are meant to level up with us so you gotta use dimensional ripping abilities to their face?

 

Seems a little ridiculous no? and unrealistic? That every mage can have a big bad arsenal, yet you are the only exception in the entire universe and have to suck cause game balance?

 

The game is balanced, I think many people know it can be extremely challenging, but you are meant to earn your own power and get stronger until you can decimate some enemies like they used to be able to decimate you, and have challenges against your equals and die to your betters.

 

That is cold hard reality, overcoming that and gaining you own great power is what makes playing a mage so good in a truly hard and unforgiving rpg.

 

WoW made this same mistake with your idea of balance, everyone the same, having the exact same range of abilities, versatility, durability, ect but with different effects to simulate individuality.

 

Why it worked before is they were all different and had massive strengths balanced with massive weaknesses, the fact mages big nukes are all limited is their big weakness to counter their big strength, we don't want all classes to be the same.

Edited March 19, 2018 by alexis13

[Lord_Mord]

 

And that's not a good thing. Being able to mop up weaker enemies with per-encounter spells and sitting on tactical nukes for harder fights is hopelessly imbalanced. It might be different if every class had the same measure of per-rest and per-encounter abilities, but that wasn't the case.

 

In the end I used that per rest slots for utility spells only, because I noticed otherwise Aloth became ridiculously overpowered. I could (and did) spam the same stuff in every fight. It was like trying to quit smoking but having a pack of cigarettes in the house. So I filled the slots with escape spells and other harmless stuff.

 

 

 

You could get 4 different spells a spell level, you could be rocking 20, at least at level 1 in D&D and it only started to get to about 4 around level 8 spells.

 

Yes. But you needed most of them for the extended buff/debuff feasts that happened late game and didn't use most of them. And since when are D&D based games a good example of a balanced casting system?

 

 

 

I often found myself compromising, and spoiled for choice and maing hard choices with my spells in POE, you maybe can switch grimoires but you may aswell just switch ur spells and camp, seems like a nonsense argument to me.

I didn't. My Aloth is a walking swiss army knife. He has every spell available in the game written in his grimoire and has learned a broad portfolio of almost everything useful. I can use him as nuke, summoner and melee mage without switching grimoires or relearning spells. I can make him almost unbreakable if I want to. But nonetheless he feels kind of generic.

 

 

 

They cut the Grimoire Custumization.

So what? What's the point of having different grimoires if they work like scrolls in D&D?

[MortyTheGobbo]

It worked for baldur's gate, and pretty much every other RPG.

 

It's ridiculous and breaks my suspencion of disbelief to see many npc mages running around like gods, ascending to lichdom and what-have-you yet our wolves are meant to level up with us so you gotta use dimensional ripping abilities to their face?

 

Seems a little ridiculous no? and unrealistic? That every mage can have a big bad arsenal, yet you are the only exception in the entire universe and have to suck cause game balance?

 

The game is balanced, I think many people know it can be extremely challenging, but you are meant to earn your own power and get stronger until you can decimate some enemies like they used to be able to decimate you, and have challenges against your equals and die to your betters.

 

That is cold hard reality, overcoming that and gaining you own great power is what makes playing a mage so good in a truly hard and unforgiving rpg.

 

WoW made this same mistake with your idea of balance, everyone the same, having the exact same range of abilities, versatility, durability, ect but with different effects to simulate individuality.

 

Why it worked before is they were all different and had massive strengths balanced with massive weaknesses, the fact mages big nukes are all limited is their big weakness to counter their big strength, we don't want all classes to be the same.

 

The only RPG that uses daily spells is D&D and the cRPGs it's based on. And no, it did not work for them and it's not balanced. D&D's method of making wizards suck at low levels and turn into nerd demigods is awful, and Pillars removes even the first part. Wizards are reasonably competent on low levels and only get better from there, as long as they're willing to unleash their spells.

 

You're making one unfounded assertion after another, starting with claiming that removing per-rest spells is... making everyone the same, somehow. Is priest the same as the wizard just because they use per-rest spells, in Pillars 1?

 

And it's really, really telling that once again complaints about changing the magic system stem from a wizard-oriented power fantasy.

Edited March 19, 2018 by MortyTheGobbo

[alexis13]

As long as I can learn spells from new Grimoires I don't really give a **** about the swapping grimoire stuff if thats how I'm understanding it.

 

The spells should come from the casters knowledge and soul anyway, not some charged up pseudo-mecha book.

 

So If thats the case I can agree with you there Mord.

 

Like don't get me wrong I'm not not upset about losing more per rest casts, I like the per rest itself, evne if I could get 4 spells/per-spell-level/per-encounter.

 

Because it feels like cheating, and it takes away the RPG feeling of getting weaker and weaker and being mortal and having to eat/sleep/drink/and-chill-out to regain all that energy to use all those big spells again.

 

It makes them feel more valuable, and you a more valuable member of the party, and it as a big deal when you use a spell.

 

It also lets the NON-MAGES feel their own worth when you have ran out of spells, as they are doing the fighting that they can continuously do to keep everyone, including the helpless depleted mage alive.

 

Mages struggle hard with that, thats where all the other dps/long-term-tank classes get to shine.

 

So this change in essence also takes away from them, because whilst it only may be twice, I'll still be able to toss out my level 9 spells every fight and that'll decimate trash even easier and me out-shine all the classes every minor fight.

Edited March 19, 2018 by alexis13