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What does everyone think about the new casting system?


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I like per rest as well. I understand your reasons for liking it, as I share that opinion. It was discussed more than one time. I even engaged in a few threads and argumented in favor of it. But in fact I have to admit: It's just my personal taste and it's hard to balance. I would have liked to see Obsidian try it. I would have liked to see at least one class built around it. But just because I really, really wanted it. It is not a good idea. To that point nobody found a good reason why it should be in the game and what's more important: Nobody found a good solution how to balance it and solve it's problems.

Edited by Lord_Mord
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@MortyTheGobbo I'll give you one thing that I didn't explain myself very well.

 

But how is me wanting to have limits my characters spells and endurance, instead of infinite endless magic power and apparently no need to ever sleep/eat/drink (which is classified as immortality in D&D)

 

My own power fantasy? The arguments I have made is to limit magic-users, aswell as to not remove the health/endurance system to limit everyone else to natural human resting/recuperating aswell.

 

It's the opposite of a power fantasy.

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I like per rest as well. I understand your reasons for liking it, as I share that opinion. It was discussed more than one time. I even engaged in a few threads and argumented in favor of it. But in fact I have to admit: It's just my personal taste and it's hard to balance. I would have liked to see Obsidian try it. I would have liked to see at least one class built around it. But just because I really, really wanted it. It is not a good idea. To that point nobody found a good reason why it should be in the game and what's more important: Nobody found a good solution how to balance it and solve it's problems.

 

Per-rest spells started out, like many things, as something Gygax thought was a good idea at the time. I have a soft spot for the method, myself. It makes magic feel like kind of a big deal while restricting it. I enjoyed it in Dying Earth and Discworld.

 

But as a balancing method in a game, it loses what effectiveness it had the moment you step out of an old-school dungeon crawl. In a tabletop game, it relies heavily on the GM's willingness and ability to enforce strict pacing. If the players manage to control their own pace, or the story the GM envisioned just doesn't work with having exactly four fights or challenges before the PCs have a chance to rest.

 

In a video game, there's not even that, because there's no GM. The most the game can do is just decide the player can't rest in a given place. At which point the player will simply sit on those spells, just in case.

 

There might be a way to somehow balance it, but I'd really rather they spent the time and effort it requires on more than three classes.

Edited by MortyTheGobbo
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Just FYI unlike D&D spells don't even always hit in this game, and they were limited, there was no wish or time stop.

 

and all the best spells were available in scrolls, what wasn't available in scrolls was in potions, that you could all infinitely craft easily nearing the mid game with all the cash you could amass.

 

Wizards in this game just wern't OP =/

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I like per rest as well. I understand your reasons for liking it, as I share that opinion. It was discussed more than one time. I even engaged in a few threads and argumented in favor of it. But in fact I have to admit: It's just my personal taste and it's hard to balance. I would have liked to see Obsidian try it. I would have liked to see at least one class built around it. But just because I really, really wanted it. It is not a good idea. To that point nobody found a good reason why it should be in the game and what's more important: Nobody found a good solution how to balance it and solve it's problems.

 

Per-rest spells started out, like many things, as something Gygax thought was a good idea at the time. I have a soft spot for the method, myself. It makes magic feel like kind of a big deal while restricting it. I enjoyed it in Dying Earth and Discworld.

 

But as a balancing method in a game, it loses what effectiveness it had the moment you step out of an old-school dungeon crawl. In a tabletop game, it relies heavily on the GM's willingness and ability to enforce strict pacing. If the players manage to control their own pace, or the story the GM envisioned just doesn't work with having exactly four fights or challenges before the PCs have a chance to rest.

 

In a video game, there's not even that, because there's no GM. The most the game can do is just decide the player can't rest in a given place. At which point the player will simply sit on those spells, just in case.

 

There might be a way to somehow balance it, but I'd really rather they spent the time and effort it requires on more than three classes.

 

 

To add to the above, it's very easy for a player to find ways around rest limitation mechanics usually employed in these games. Can't rest in a given place or ran out of supplies? No matter, just go back to the place where you can rest infinite times, and then head back. In a system like Pillars the only big waste in retreading, aside from the player's real-life time, is in-game time, but stronghold aside there's very little in the game that uses time as a resource. So there's probably some system out there where backtracking could be penalized in some fashion - maybe quests are time-critical, or food items rot or the likes, and so it's not convenient to head back to the nearest tavern to rest - but that's really not the case for Pillars and so ultimately resting is more of a mere nuissance than a critical resource.

Edited by algroth
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My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/alephg

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I like per rest as well. I understand your reasons for liking it, as I share that opinion. It was discussed more than one time. I even engaged in a few threads and argumented in favor of it. But in fact I have to admit: It's just my personal taste and it's hard to balance. I would have liked to see Obsidian try it. I would have liked to see at least one class built around it. But just because I really, really wanted it. It is not a good idea. To that point nobody found a good reason why it should be in the game and what's more important: Nobody found a good solution how to balance it and solve it's problems.

 

Per-rest spells started out, like many things, as something Gygax thought was a good idea at the time. I have a soft spot for the method, myself. It makes magic feel like kind of a big deal while restricting it. I enjoyed it in Dying Earth and Discworld.

 

But as a balancing method in a game, it loses what effectiveness it had the moment you step out of an old-school dungeon crawl. In a tabletop game, it relies heavily on the GM's willingness and ability to enforce strict pacing. If the players manage to control their own pace, or the story the GM envisioned just doesn't work with having exactly four fights or challenges before the PCs have a chance to rest.

 

In a video game, there's not even that, because there's no GM. The most the game can do is just decide the player can't rest in a given place. At which point the player will simply sit on those spells, just in case.

 

There might be a way to somehow balance it, but I'd really rather they spent the time and effort it requires on more than three classes.

 

 

To add to the above, it's very easy for a player to find ways around rest limitation mechanics usually employed in these games. Can't rest in a given place or ran out of supplies? No matter, just go back to the place where you can rest infinite times, and then head back. In a system like Pillars the only big waste in retreading, aside from the player's real-life time, is in-game time, but stronghold aside there's very little in the game that uses time as a resource. So there's probably some system out there where backtracking could be penalized in some fashion - maybe quests are time-critical, or food items rot or the likes, and so it's not convenient to head back to the nearest tavern to rest - but that's really not the case for Pillars and so ultimately resting is more of a mere nuissance than a critical resource.

 

 

Which, when you add it all up, means that the game's tactics revolve around squeezing every ounce of power from the three spell-casting classes before the game makes you stop.

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@Algroth   ....yes....you have to go back to town, and take solace from the elements or escape from the endless dark cavern of the mountain and go back for supplies....that's the roleplay!

 

That's not "getting around it", hacking the game would be getting around it, that's the ended mechanics of the game.....

 

What kinda argument is this....why is it upvoted....cmon guys.....

Edited by alexis13
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To add to the above, it's very easy for a player to find ways around rest limitation mechanics usually employed in these games. Can't rest in a given place or ran out of supplies? No matter, just go back to the place where you can rest infinite times, and then head back. In a system like Pillars the only big waste in retreading, aside from the player's real-life time, is in-game time, but stronghold aside there's very little in the game that uses time as a resource. So there's probably some system out there where backtracking could be penalized in some fashion - maybe quests are time-critical, or food items rot or the likes, and so it's not convenient to head back to the nearest tavern to rest - but that's really not the case for Pillars and so ultimately resting is more of a mere nuissance than a critical resource.

 

 

Yeah you can be lame in every kind of game. However it is a single player game so it does not effect me at all if people want to do tiresome lame things. So I don't see why I should suffer to stop those people. In any case if they don't want to 'waste time' they can just play on a lower difficulty level.

 

I hope whatever costs this new system have will be worth making sure people don't waste their time being lame. I hope I enjoy this new system. It sounds like the sort of thing I will not like though, but I will give it a chance.

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What kinda argument is this....why is it upvoted....cmon guys.....

 

I voted for it, because it shows in which cases a vancian system will work and in which it won't. As in PoE there are no time critical quests, food rot or the like, rest spamming would be definitely the way to go for 99% of the players. Even I would not resist. That's why it would be no good system for this particular game.

 

Edit: I hate myself for writing these things. Do you see what you've done?

Edited by Lord_Mord
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Wow, the Baldurs Gate argument again, huh... I love Baldurs Gate I & II. And I think spell casting worked okay in the first one. I mean, you're way weaker than other classes early on for no reason, which is bad design mechanically speaking. It didn't bother me too much personally thou. 

It seems however, that most defenders of the D&D system is loving the high level mages, and the mage duels... Seriously? High level spell casting is the most tedious **** in BG II. You cast the same spells over and over, until one of the mages run out of defensive spells, or a break spell pierces, so you can deal damage. It was fun for like 3 encounters, and then it's just a chore from there on out. It was a boring meta, which had no real alternatives. How can people like that? It's bad design, and worse than that, it's boring. 

I think Obsidian is moving in the right direction with their changes, even thou casting times are abit long for me.

Edited by TheisEjsing
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It seems however, that most defenders of the D&D system is loving the high level mages, and the mage duels... Seriously? High level spell casting is the most tedious **** in BG II. You cast the same spells over and over, until one of the mages run out of defensive spells, or a break spell pierces, so you can deal damage. It was fun for like 3 encounters, and then it's just a chore from there on out. It was a boring meta, which had no real alternatives. How can people like that? It's bad design, and worse than that, it's boring.

 

It was like a big epic rock paper scissors game. I understand why one can find it boring the way it is, even if I didn't. But I always hoped someone would bring it to the next level. Like a big epic abstract game of chess.

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Wow, the Baldurs Gate argument again, huh... I love Baldurs Gate I & II. And I think spell casting worked okay in the first one. I mean, you're way weaker than other classes early on for no reason, which is bad design mechanically speaking. It didn't bother me too much personally thou. 

 

It seems however, that most defenders of the D&D system is loving the high level mages, and the mage duels... Seriously? High level spell casting is the most tedious **** in BG II. You cast the same spells over and over, until one of the mages run out of defensive spells, or a break spell pierces, so you can deal damage. It was fun for like 3 encounters, and then it's just a chore from there on out. It was a boring meta, which had no real alternatives. How can people like that? It's bad design, and worse than that, it's boring. 

 

I think Obsidian is moving in the right direction with their changes, even thou casting times are abit long for me.

 

I just enjoy managing resources.

 

In a non-Vancian system then I usually just end up with a spell rotation for most fights and that gets pretty repetitive and boring. I have just never enjoyed them that much even if they are better 'design' for whatever reason. I was glad to finally get a game with a Vancian system again after a very long time and I had a blast with it. I am sad to see it go. 

 

I hope the new system is good.

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rest spamming would be definitely the way to go for 99% of the players. Even I would not resist. That's why it would be no good system for this particular game.

 

 

99% of the Players probably didn't play on Story Mode // Relaxed, where you could have x99 Camping Supplies.

Others had to manage their ressources with Two Camping Supplies only on PoTD.

 

Rest-Spamming... lol

 

Now it's Deadfire that has, indeed, turned into a Rest Spamming Festival.

Since there are no Ressources to manage anymore, & on top of that, regarding the Difficulty.

Great Improvement !  :lol:

[Get yourself two stacks of x99 Hardtacks & you're good for an entire Playthrough, on any difficulty ! xD]

Edited by DexGames
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rest spamming would be definitely the way to go for 99% of the players. Even I would not resist. That's why it would be no good system for this particular game.

 

99% of the Players probably didn't play on Story Mode // Relaxed, where you could have x99 Camping Supplies.

Others had to manage their ressources with Two Camping Supplies only on PoTD.

 

Rest-Spamming... lol

 

Oh Yeah ! Now it's Deadfire that has indeed bacome a Rest Spamming Festival. Since there are no Ressources to manage anymore, & all of that, regarding the Difficulty on top of that.

Great Improvement !  :lol:

[Get yourself two stacks of x99 Hardtacks & you're good for an entire Playthrough, on any difficulty ! xD]

My dear Dex, you don't even make much sense. What exactly is the benefit of sleeping in Deadifre and feeding your party with Hardtacks (except loosing resoures on your team and time, which in Deadfire is money, as while you party after every combat stuffing your face with hardtacks your crew eats as well... preferably not hardtacks).

 

Considering Obs changes in WM1&2 and Deadfire my guess would be that the issue PoE had was people not using spells enough. Frankly, PoE1 gives resting supplies like candybars. I fail to see what great depth PoE1 has what Deadfire doesn't offer right now, except spells being an "I win" button with marity of the game being balanced around not using them.

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I must say I have tried to keep away from these forums and from being spoiled too much.. I want to experience it myself. And I have not played the beta so I dont want to criticize.

 

But I will say this, Every other company that have tried to make a casting system generic have in my opinion failed.

 

A wizard for example Should in my opinion be your ace in the arm. He is a fragile little thing that you will have to protect and keep safe and does only low/medium damage until that time when your enite party is in deep ****..

 

Its only then you release him. And hopefully win the day :)

 

I love that feeling and that level of strategy involved. 

 

I only hope the new casting system does not make every fight feel generic and remove those strategic elements that i love so much.

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rest spamming would be definitely the way to go for 99% of the players. Even I would not resist. That's why it would be no good system for this particular game.

99% of the Players probably didn't play on Story Mode // Relaxed, where you could have x99 Camping Supplies.

Others had to manage their ressources with Two Camping Supplies only on PoTD.

 

Rest-Spamming... lol

 

Oh Yeah ! Now it's Deadfire that has indeed bacome a Rest Spamming Festival. Since there are no Ressources to manage anymore, & all of that, regarding the Difficulty on top of that.

Great Improvement ! :lol:

[Get yourself two stacks of x99 Hardtacks & you're good for an entire Playthrough, on any difficulty ! xD]

My dear Dex, you don't even make much sense. What exactly is the benefit of sleeping in Deadifre and feeding your party with Hardtacks (except loosing resoures on your team and time, which in Deadfire is money, as while you party after every combat stuffing your face with hardtacks your crew eats as well... preferably not hardtacks).

 

Considering Obs changes in WM1&2 and Deadfire my guess would be that the issue PoE had was people not using spells enough. Frankly, PoE1 gives resting supplies like candybars. I fail to see what great depth PoE1 has what Deadfire doesn't offer right now, except spells being an "I win" button with marity of the game being balanced around not using them.

The benefit is that you can remove injuries at will without a real restriction. So they are not a good substitute to the health system of PoE. You also get the benefit of refreshed Empower uses - which in case of casters can be very powerful.

 

It's per rest casting in the disguise of a per encounter casting system.

 

At PotD PoE gave you a limit of 2 camping supplies which could get you into trouble in some places like example Endless Paths.

 

99 hardtack will get you out of everything. Just use empowered Bounding Missiles every fight.

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Frankly, PoE1 gives resting supplies like candybars. I fail to see what great depth PoE1 has what Deadfire doesn't offer right now, except spells being an "I win" button with marity of the game being balanced around not using them.

 

Spell Economy & Ressource Management, was the depth that completely disappeared here. Everything is infinite now.

[Even if you'd found a box with 20 Resting Candybars in it, you couldnt take them, cause you were only able possess two on Highest Difficulty]

 

Highest Difficulty now ? Infinite Restings & Spells.

:down:

Edited by DexGames
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I must be one of the only ones here who does not particularly favor the resting system of older classics. I like something a little more contemporary/modern. Casting at will.

 

One of my favorite things about Tyranny was it's per cast system which some consider weird or strange but I felt was a great way for a mage/witch to express thyselves.

 

Would be curious to see what Gromnir think, they seem to be relatively loud about the subject when sharing their thoughts on other threads amongst these boards.

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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I must be one of the only ones here who does not particularly favor the resting system of older classics. I like something a little more contemporary/modern. Casting at will.

 

One of my favorite things about Tyranny was it's per cast system which some consider weird or strange but I felt was a great way for a mage/witch to express thyselves.

 

Would be curious to see what Gromnir think, they seem to be relatively loud about the subject when sharing their thoughts on other threads amongst these boards.

 

I would like to see both. My dream would be a totally different system for every class. Per Rest for mages. Per encounter for priest. Per cast for druid. Wounds for monks. Focus for cipher. Chants for chanters. Did I forget someone?

 

And please don't ask me how multiclasses would work.

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A different system for every class would be cool, I think multiclass would take the higher denominator of the two so it would be pretty cool. Depending on your character's dual-class stats, the casting system would change making it a manipulative & dynamic casting system. Neat idea!

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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I would like to see both. My dream would be a totally different system for every class. Per Rest for mages. Per encounter for priest. Per cast for druid. Wounds for monks. Focus for cipher. Chants for chanters. Did I forget someone?

It actually sounds kinda cool, except I would probably give Per Rest to Priest & Per Encounter to Mages.

So that Healing would be trickier to manage over many Fights.

Edited by DexGames
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This is a copypaste from a reply i made in another thread that sums up much of what i feel on the subject.

 

InsaneCommander, on 19 Mar 2018 - 3:29 PM, said:snapback.png

I don't like the Health/Endurance system in PoE. I will either run out of health before using all of my spells so it looks like I don't need to decide carefully when to use them or I will use them all the time and again they won't look like an important resource to save for special occasions. But this may be my impression now because recently I've only played on high levels, when I have lots of spells.

 

Could also be because I play different from most people. I never spam rest, I only rest when it makes sense, like when I go to a new city/village or too much time has passed. Or when I explore an entire level of a dungeon and it feels safe to rest.

 

I don't think I'll miss it.

 

As for the new casting system, it does look worse, but I don't have enough information to judge it yet.

Much like you i never "spam" rest and i limit and manage my spell usage so it will coincide with  my health loss usually resulting in 1 or sometimes 2 rests per area. Unfortunately people who prefer a more strategic and adapting approach are going to be a bit disappointed. By introducing the per encounter approach with far fewer casts(1-2) per spell level the flexibility of the system has become quite... limiting. Combined with the extremely narrowed down spell selection (2 spells per spell level) you are essentially forced into having at most 2 approaches to rotate through for every single encounter you will ever have for the entire game provided you diversify your spell selection and there is absolutely nothing you can do about that and still have a viable character.

 

On the bright side most physical classes gained some more versatility by having a resource pool instead of a set number of usages per ability. Unfortunately they are and have always been far less versatile than casters despite this and does not make up for the loss of combat options for the caster types.

 

The only thing in the game that could potentially give some versatility to a run in combat (aside from changing companions) would be consumable items, but there has yet to be proven if the crafting system is robust enough to make any kind of significant impact in that apartment. So be prepared to have your entire game plan be determined at character creation and levelups, because the current system doesn't seem versatile enough to allow for dynamically changing game-plans in combat.

 

But that's enough expression of disappointment from me for a single post. I just wanted to share my opinions on the subject.

Have a good one.

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I liked how Pillar did it, its a single player game, why do the developers care if I spell spam for the fun of it, and then rest spam to be able to do so. They  dont lose money every time i play how I want to play. They dont lay awake at night wondering why Tatty is not playing Pillars the right way, or they shouldnt. There is no leaderboard, no multiplayer to balance. It looks like they are specifically eliminating different ways to play,  using very limited per encounter abilities/spells and limited or expensive good food to stop rest spam.  I would prefer options on how to play a game.

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