Things we like about the classics which we want in Deadfire?

[daven]

I think this is the second topic i've ever made... anyways.

 

After that sidekick topic i started BG2 again and Icewind Dale. Makes me think about a lot of the little things missing/glad to be gone in PoE!

 

1. Text by NPC's are limited to about 1-2 sentences per text box.

 

In PoE, they often throw big paragraphs at you. Sometimes it's kind of demotivating.
I like reading as much as the next guy but just seeing a wall of text makes me groan and want to skim read.
In BG even if they have a lot to say it's split up in multiple text boxes, so you can't really tell how much they are going to say.
Brevity is the soul of wit!

 

I feel like I'm being a hypocrite with the previous comment... moving on.

 

2. This might seem petty but, actually clicking on doors and seeing them open. It might seem like busy work but I really do prefer it after playing PoE/BG2 back to back.

 

3.Ammo/Limited inventory/Spell Scrolls/Death

 

OK so, Ammo can be a pain but I think we've lost something getting rid of it, and limited inventory.

What I'm HAPPY about it spell scrolls, that is one thing that is a complete pain when they fail to learn, all I do is reload immediately.

Death, there was a topic a while back about this and there were people in favour and against perma death. At the time I was in favour of it, but after playing BG2, the second any of my party dies I instantly reload even though I have access to resurrection spells.

 

4. Weapons/Armour

 

Weapons and Armour are mostly dull in PoE, Sanguine plate and White Crest armour are exceptions.

I've heard they are working on this for Deadfire, I don't want to be overflowing with magical weapons and armour.
When you get a Full Plate Mail in BG it will probably be your armour for most of the game.

I think enchanting and that should be flat out removed thinking about it, reminds me of reforging in WoW. More of a hassle than anything else.

 

Can we think of anything we'd like to see return in PoE/ the new lot of CRPG's?

 

What are we glad has gone forever?

Edited March 9, 2018 by daven

[daven]

Just realised the topic title is kinda grammatically off. But ya know, beers and stuff

 

For some reason when I type on here at home I can't put spaces at all. I'm having to type this in notepad and copy/paste it in. At work it's fine......

Edited March 9, 2018 by daven

[MountainTiger]

I've said before that I support the Dragon Age: Origins compromise on ammo: basic ammo is unlimited, special ammo is limited. Carrying around stacks of mundane arrows is a pain, but having the opportunity to load something special for a big fight is fun.

[Wormerine]

I am playing through BGs right now. Currently going through BG2. 

I must say, PoE systems are wonderful. I am really annoyed by armor restrictions and such. Building character in BG is not very interesting. I miss PoE writing. There are some good stuff (mostly Irenicus) but saturday morning cartoon morals don't work for me as well as they did 15 years ago. And yeah, companions are really one-note. But fun.

BUT

 

Stuff that could be adapted. I agree about ammo for ranged weapons and I agree even further with MountainTIger. While managing common ammo is a minor needless hustle, giving player unique arrows, bolts and such would be welcome. 

I really like how unique items are. What BG2 does it so well. Yes, you get drowned in magical items, but I want to keep many of them for different occasions. Weapons dispelling magic on hit, or doing extra damage to giants, having a chance to one kill fire elementals etc. Its fun, while probably not terribly deep as far as gameplay and balance is concerned. 

I was never a fan of crafting though I am curious if Obs promise will pay off. They were talking about unique enchantments for various weapons. We shall see. PoE1 was really dull in that regard. 

 

As far as inventory management goes - I can go either way. I don't think it adds anything to the game (both in terms of frustration or gameplay) nor do I miss it in PoE. The only difference is that I get a closer look at what I pick up in BG, while I missed some better items in PoE1 due to autolooting to stash. 

DOORS! You have no idea how it bothered my on my first PoE playthrough. I think it would be nice if doors were a 3d object and had opening animation before fading to black, Makes it feel more like an interactive world, rather than an obvious static image with a transfer point between maps. 

[Mannock]

3.Ammo/Limited inventory/Spell Scrolls/Death

 

OK so, Ammo can be a pain but I think we've lost something getting rid of it, and limited inventory.

Totally agree! The have it all of the inventory system we have in PoE takes all the strategy and fun out of it, like it was in BG2.

4. Weapons/Armour

 

Weapons and Armour are mostly dull in PoE, Sanguine plate and White Crest armour are exceptions.

I've heard they are working on this for Deadfire, I don't want to be overflowing with magical weapons and armour.

When you get a Full Plate Mail in BG it will probably be your armour for most of the game.

Again, I agree. Getting Blade of Roses early in BG2 was awesome and it was good enough to carry through large portions of the game. You didn't need to switch weapons every 45 minutes because you found a new weapon of awesomeness that did 0.20% more damage than the one you already had.

 

And all enchanting should be done via a "cromwell's forge" mechanic. I miss those things.

[daven]

Yeah I think you said that in another topic Mannock, only Cromwell style forging of items! In some ways PoE feels like a compromise between IE and Diablo 2 or something?

 

But yeah, companions in BG1 are a joke compared to Eternity. It feels like i'm really bashing on the game but I do like it. I just think they are underestimating a lot of the little things.

[Mannock]

Yeah I think you said that in another topic Mannock, only Cromwell style forging of items! In some ways PoE feels like a compromise between IE and Diablo 2 or something?

 

But yeah, companions in BG1 are a joke compared to Eternity. It feels like i'm really bashing on the game but I do like it. I just think they are underestimating a lot of the little things.

Yeah, sorry. Repeating myself.

 

And yes, PoE was a great game and I'm sure Deadfire will be even better.

[Wormerine]

I don’t think a crafting system to be evil. Cromwell forge was cool as hell, but I would really categorise it as crafting. There are couple really cool items which you need to collect before ensambling. I think it was well recreated with some soulbound weapons.

 

My problem with crafting in PoE1 is that it’s not interesting. Little choice to make. Weapons found, were for the most part weapons you could make. If upgrades could change the nature of the weapon it would be something else - maybe a bit like spellcrafting in Tyranny. I hope Obsidian still does the unique weapons with unique upgrade paths that they have talked about for Deadfire.

[MountainTiger]

I guess I'm odd for liking the crafting in PoE. It expanded the possibilities for endgame gear without requiring a lot of investment in understanding a complex system or in gathering ingredients.

[Gregorovitch]

IIRC correctly missile ammo came in stakcs of 20 in BG/BG2. I recall last playing the Beamdog EE version. Ammo stacks increased to 80. Yay! No more worries running out of ammo, more space for carrying loot across the party. I know some people will see the original restricted inventory as cool and strategic and all, but fact is I saw it as a PITA and I suspect the vast majority of players probably feel the same. Bascially it's not fun, it's just an annoying irritation. The logic of this is inexorable: go up to 80 per stack and there are no problems any more, so why have ammo stacks at all since they are now pointless?

 

Bean count special ammo? Yeah, OK. I suppose. Under protest.

 

Crafting is a perenial problem in RPGs IMO. It's just not possible to get it right becasue it's bascially a zero sum game: either you can craft better gear than you can loot or buy, in which case crafting is the only game in town, or you can't, in which case crafting is a total waste of time. The side effect of crafting being the only game in town is that it devalues all the loot you get and everything available in the shops as happened in Skyrim. The effect of crafting being inferior to looted and bought equipment is obvious.

 

Only two games I cite as having got this right are Morrowind and PoE1. This is becasue you are totally free to enhance any gear you find or buy as you wish but you need to get hold of decent base gear therrfore there is no devaluing of looted and bought equipment by the crafting system. It sidesteps the zero sum problem neatly.

 

Morrowind was of course a lot more interesting with it's much more powerfull (than PoE) enchanting where, if you had the gargantuan amounts of cash required, you could make rediculously powerfull weapons and gear - too powerfull by far really - and it wasn't that hard to make the cash either. But it was ludicrously unbalanced and removed any challenge from the late game really. PoE's little enchantments may have been boring but at least they didn't ruin the challenge of the game.

[Enduin]

I generally hate actual crafting systems where you can actually craft weapons and armor, along with enhancements, as they tend to just ruin itemization and real unique items and they usually become huge distractions with little real payoff for the rest of the game. I vastly prefer upgrade/enhancement systems. PoE was on the right track in this regard but the execution left a lot to be desired. 

 

I have to say I rather liked Tyranny's crafting system due to its simplicity of material requirements even if it lacked the ability further enhance and augment items like PoE did with Lashings, Slayings, Proofing and Attribute Bonuses. I was much more invested and interested in upgrading my gear in that game as I had easily identifiable goals in order to do so. PoE's enchanting in comparison was needlessly complex and rather tiring. Crafting level was annoying and completely artificial, the enchantment points system was excessive and confusing for many and the plethora of materials required for everything was just tiring and overwhelming rather than interesting and enticing you to hunt for materials, which really doesn't work for a game like PoE like it does for say open world games, and the whole locking you into choices always rubs me the wrong way and feels like a trap.

 

If we could get a system that was more like Tyranny's with regards to upgrade material requirements and DAO's Rune Slots I'd be way happier. Let us upgrade weapons and armor separate from enchantments with simple material requirements that just increase in quantity with each upgrade. Beyond improving basic item stats, upgrades would also open up rune slots for enchantments. Some unique items could have fewer or more slots along with fixed unique enchantments. Then let us craft Enchantment Runes that we can swap in and out and use the myriad of crafting materials PoE introduced in order to craft these Runes instead. Rarer materials create better runes with more unique qualities. And don't limit upgrades/enchantments by crafting skill which just auto-improves as we level up in order to lock us out. If someone wants to go trick out their weapon from the start and drain their resources to do so, let them. There are other, better, means to restrict this system that's based around player actions and choices with regards to resources and upgrades and not simply level locking them.

 

As well I also really enjoy unique item quests. Stuff like The Blade of the Endless Paths where you find and put a weapon back together is always really rewarding to me. The thrill of finding pieces and putting it all together is great. So I hope to see at least a few of those in Deadfire. Plus this is more than a little bit of a Pirate themed game, give us some riddles and X marks the spot type **** to find this stuff. 

[SonicMage117]

RELIGION.

 

Religion as a critical point. It made the original so good and unique. Helped to set it apart from other rpg's. Made the game relatable. As long as religion is one of the major lore details, then my investment will be worth it.

[anameforobsidian]

It's a little late to be adding new systems to the game, so the discussion is moot.  That said, here's what I think about the suggestions:

 

• Limiting text is a bad idea.  Sometimes dialogue could have been more concise, but there were plenty of short conversations in there too.  BG II definitely didn't limit dialogue to one to two lines between characters anyways.  Jan in particular could go on and on.
• Doors.  Sure, why not?
• Consumable arrows - I think there's area here for a compromise.  Base arrows can just be a property of the item (not an item, just free and infinite).  Consumable ammunition could be found very rarely, and in very small stacks.  That could lead to some cool theory-crafting for the boss fights, or that one magical arrow that you always save until you absolutely need it.  Normal magical ammunition was way too common in BG, and thus was just another thing you had to do instead of special.
• Your point about magical weapons and armor is wrong for this game.  This is a sequel.  The characters will go to higher power levels, so you can expect more magical weapons, not less.  Anyways, they've already changed enchanting so that gear has a set progression if you choose to enchant.  

[CottonWolf]

RELIGION.

 

Religion as a critical point. It made the original so good and unique. Helped to set it apart from other rpg's. Made the game relatable. As long as religion is one of the major lore details, then my investment will be worth it.

 

I don't know if you've touched the beta, but I don't think you have to worry on that front.

[Sedrefilos]

I don't miss anything from the classics that it's not inPillars besides, maybe, the more consistent and fluid writing. Text walls must die.

[algroth]

This discussion could have had a bit more repercussion (if at all) if made earlier, but nevermind that, I'm up for playing. So here's a couple that come to mind...

 

1. More sidequests with long and complex story arcs

So, to my mind if there is one aspect where Baldur's Gate II clearly succeeds over any of its peers, Pillars included, is with regards to the quest design from a sheer narrative standpoint. Whether you look at the Cult of the Eyeless, Firkraag's offer, the Planar Sphere, the Deaths in the Umar Hills and several more, all of these have complex stories that could well have been the main plot to a whole other new game instead, with several plot points and twists and conflicts present, and often resulting in interesting repercussions that could very well be a quest or task or adventure all of their own (unlocking strongholds, having to tie loose ends and so on). The sheer depth to these quests is what I feel any game aiming to reach Baldur's Gate II's heights will have to aim for sooner or later, and whilst Pillars was certainly not lacking in content, there's very few quests that came anywhere close to this level of depth or complexity (one could think of Raedric or the Skaenite cult for example, but even these are in my opinion a fair bit more linear and straight-forward than the likes of the Cult of the Eyeless for example - arguably the most complex and intriguing one is DLC content, being that of the murder at the mines) - personally I would like to see a greater focus in quests like these, as well as possible other quests and content that might result from the resolution of the same (for example, having to deal with Raedric a second time in the first game).

 

2. Beefy hidden content

Whilst the first Pillars does seem to try and add some 'secret' content here or there to, say, reward the more attentive and exhaustive players, I still find that most of the content in the game is fairly easy to find. In contrast I find it very interesting how Planescape: Torment would go to such extremes so as to make whole areas and *companions* available only by the most obscure side-content, interactions and associations. So with the Modron Cube, for example, you never actually got a prompt to buy it or what to do with it at all - the player would originally have to buy it out of sheer curiosity, and bring it to the actual modrons only by associating that one looked like the other. This wasn't marked as a quest in any way within the journal. But possibly one of the most interesting interactions too is the means through which you arrive to Xachariah, where you need to have learned about Dak'kon's past, about the "four" that walked your path, but then also having to piece together through intuition that if Dak'kon were to act as an intermediary for Fell's words then he too might react in some fashion to the mention of the "four", thus proving him to be one of the same; then you'd also have to be attentive enough to figure out that you can use your Stories-Bones-Tell ability (if acquired - which one could have easily missed as well) on the undead at the Mortuary as well... And only through getting all these pieces together do you finally get the chance to talk to this former companion of yours and unlock another facet of your history and so on. Whilst I think that maybe a few of these 'secrets' in Torment were more the byproduct of a fairly poorly implemented journal, and perhaps it took these same to a bit of an extreme, I still wouldn't mind seeing more beefy hard to reach content in Deadfire myself, either in the shape of some larger quest or even the likes of a Twisted Rune-type encounter for example. Which, given how the game is promising uncharted islands and a more semi-open-world exploration mechanic through sailing, I suppose could well be the case in this game.

 

3. DEATH TO SUPPRESSION

God, are there few things that irk me in Pillars so much as suppression in items. I get it that this was present in 3/3.5ed D&D games like Icewind Dale II and the Neverwinter Nights saga and maybe it makes for better balance but it feels ****ing *wrong* all over. It turns itemization into a ****ing chore, it makes it so that items can be very easily made obsolete not just by those of their very own type/slot, but those of *any other* type/slot as well, and also makes it so that a normally very good or great item suddenly becomes very disappointing, because they could well not mean a thing since this +3 might bonus is overridden by this *other* +3 might bonus. It just sucks, it feels terrible in every way, and I'm glad that Josh has already "confirmed" that they're removing suppression for this game in one of the Q&As (I'm still not sure if they actually have done so or not).

 

These, I guess, are three points that come to mind. Maybe a few others will later on, and if so I'll look into expanding this list. But here's three things I hope to see addressed with Deadfire. The first particularly, since I really feel that that's where the most relevant progress can be made from the original onto a sequel.

Edited March 10, 2018 by algroth

[bonarbill]

3. DEATH TO SUPPRESSION

God, are there few things that irk me in Pillars so much as suppression in items. I get it that this was present in 3/3.5ed D&D games like Icewind Dale II and the Neverwinter Nights saga and maybe it makes for better balance but it feels ****ing *wrong* all over. It turns itemization into a ****ing chore, it makes it so that items can be very easily made obsolete not just by those of their very own type/slot, but those of *any other* type/slot as well, and also makes it so that a normally very good or great item suddenly becomes very disappointing, because they could well not mean a thing since this +3 might bonus is overridden by this *other* +3 might bonus. It just sucks, it feels terrible in every way, and I'm glad that Josh has already "confirmed" that they're removing suppression for this game in one of the Q&As (I'm still not sure if they actually have done so or not).

 

BG games did have item suppression though.

[algroth]

 

3. DEATH TO SUPPRESSION

God, are there few things that irk me in Pillars so much as suppression in items. I get it that this was present in 3/3.5ed D&D games like Icewind Dale II and the Neverwinter Nights saga and maybe it makes for better balance but it feels ****ing *wrong* all over. It turns itemization into a ****ing chore, it makes it so that items can be very easily made obsolete not just by those of their very own type/slot, but those of *any other* type/slot as well, and also makes it so that a normally very good or great item suddenly becomes very disappointing, because they could well not mean a thing since this +3 might bonus is overridden by this *other* +3 might bonus. It just sucks, it feels terrible in every way, and I'm glad that Josh has already "confirmed" that they're removing suppression for this game in one of the Q&As (I'm still not sure if they actually have done so or not).

 

BG games did have item suppression though.

 

 

Did they? I don't recall any of the sort. I recall items "of Protection" restricting one another or not being wearable when you had magical armour on, but that's incompatibility, not suppression, and not really the same. Those are restrictions which, whilst not ideal, are not as bad as stat suppression since they only affected a very small number of items and pretty clearly informed you of the incongruence by not making the items wearable - meanwhile the stat suppression system meant that in the later stages of the game I had to check through each item on each character to make sure I found just the right crack where X item might not overlap with any of the others and be at all useful, which, for a revolving door roster as I kept in my playthrough, was most certainly a pain to go through and basically sucked the fun out of itemizing the party. I could well be misremembering another case of actual suppression in the Baldur's Gate games, but I don't recall it working the way it did in Pillars at all myself (and being far less intrusive in turn).

[daven]

If you wore Plate armour +1, you couldn't equip a ring of the princes. It just would not allow you to equip it. I prefer that to allowing you to equip it but not allowing any bonus and not even telling you!

[daven]

RELIGION.

 

Religion as a critical point. It made the original so good and unique. Helped to set it apart from other rpg's. Made the game relatable. As long as religion is one of the major lore details, then my investment will be worth it.

 

Are you saying you want religion or don't want it?

 

Pretty sure there was tons of religion in BG2, and there was a lot on Pillars?

 

Actually I've changed my mind about that. In the forgotten realms religion is pretty important. There are temples everywhere and people are quite serious about the gods and what have you. In Pillars it's only a side note unless the plot decides it's important.

Edited March 10, 2018 by daven

[Sedrefilos]

Forgotten Realms doesen't have proper religion. It has gods that are real and churches with faithful ones. When one aligns with a god's aspect they become worshipers. This is different from religion. Religion is a dogma that dictates a universal truth about everything (as revealed by a supposed higher beign or beigns) and denies other worldviews.

FR is closer to ancient civilizations' view of deities where they were interfiering with mortal deeds and they fight amongst themselves. There were no dogmas just beliefs that one god behaves like this and another behaves like that and what you do might attract their attention etc. Big big difference from how religion works.

 

EDIT: Pillars stands somewhere inbetween but gives nice twist to them. I like.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Sedrefilos

[cokane]

Definitely the biggest advantage the BG games had over Pillars was gear. Some folks touched on suppression, which is definitely part of it. Suppression existed in BG, but was pretty limited, I think only to armor class. In Pillars, it's every stat, and just really limited viable gear builds.

 

But also Pillars suffers from having too many gear options for too many classes. Restrictions really helped the BG games. Obsidian almost seems to acknowledge this in White March, where the best gear in the game, soulbound, is all class restricted. As others have said, there's way too many items that do little more than increase your damage by 0.2% or some such, and along with suppression checking, gearing up becomes a bit of a chore of just seeing how you can maximize every little piece of gear among your party. BG series did a much finer job by giving you item drops that were often enormous upgrades but would be restricted to say only two or so members of a balanced party.

[Salinger]

Big big difference from how religion works.

Polytheism is still a religion.

[algroth]

Edit: nvm, better to leave religious debate elsewhere as it's a tangent that doesn't really belong to this thread.

Edited March 10, 2018 by algroth

[daven]

I really don't care about real world religion, we shouldn't apply that to these games. It's completely different.

 

Religion in Forgotten Realms and Pillars are actually more real as the devoted are granted spells and what not.

 

In fact I would liken real world religion to worshipping Ao.

Edited March 10, 2018 by daven