Josh's new suggestion for Resolve is brilliant IMHO!

[Dr <3]

I like the Josh proposal tbh

[theBalthazar]

Dexterity : Casting Time -4 %

Resolve : Recovery -4 %

Doesn't Dexterity already reduce recovery? It did in Pillars at least. Not saying this is a bad suggestion, I quite like it, but it might involve modifying Dexterity.

 

 

Yes ! with POE1 we have Dexterity = Action Time/Recovery Time in one stat. In our case, this value is divided (and slightly increase for the loss 4 % instead of 3 %) in two attributes. It is more tactic :

 

Melee, have a greater interrest to resolve. (Hit Cast time : 0.7, Recovery : 4s)

 

Casters have a greater interrest to Dexterity. (Fire ball Cast Time : 6s, Recovery : 2s)

 

So, with 4 % melee didn't feel the difference. Even perhaps they are faster.

 

...And back to logic : melee = deflection... = Resolve.

 

: )

 

Old system : Might + Dexterity + Perception, (Down = resolve)

 

New system Melee : Might + Resolve (Deflection) + Perception (Down = Dexterity)

New system Casters : Might + Dexterity + Perception (Down = Resolve)

 

AND, you can also increase both, if you want a full speed with intermediate choice like 3s / 3s spells.

 

 

 

 

 

PS : That why in that system you CAN create spell of cipher AND Chanter (and druid in a shorter way) with LOW Cast time. Solve every problems... (=0.5s/2s of Cast time)

Edited February 27, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Wormerine]

I'll have to wait and see what the numbers and the effects are. Would a 0 Resolve have 0% and then climb from there?

 

Randomly getting a powered up Empower might be fun.

 

Regardless if this is what it takes to get Might back I'm all in.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=407#post481654848

 

My current math pegs it at 3% per point over/under 10, so at 20 you're looking at a 30% chance to Empower any given ability

[theBalthazar]

My current math pegs it at 3% per point over/under 10, so at 20 you're looking at a 30% chance to Empower any given ability

 

 

 

30 % of empower

 

LOL. Resolve = killer stat. 30 % to increase by 10 Power Level your spell ? Insane... Need to balance !^^

 

Not a big fan of the idea.

Edited February 27, 2018 by theBalthazar

[JerekKruger]

30 % of empower

 

LOL. Resolve = killer stat. 30 % to increase by 10 Power Level your spell ? Insane... Need to balance !^^

 

Not a big fan of the idea.

 

It's worse than that. An appropriately built Orlan can start the game with 20 Resolve. Then with an Inspiration they can hit 25, so 45%. That's before any bonuses to Resolve from equipment or non-Inspiration buffs (what does Crowns of the Faithful do with Resolve currently?).

 

By the way, what exactly does the negative chance from going below 10 Resolve mean? Would it mean an X% chance to have the power level of your ability reduced?

[Insidous]

 

30 % of empower

 

LOL. Resolve = killer stat. 30 % to increase by 10 Power Level your spell ? Insane... Need to balance !^^

 

Not a big fan of the idea.

 

It's worse than that. An appropriately built Orlan can start the game with 20 Resolve. Then with an Inspiration they can hit 25, so 45%. That's before any bonuses to Resolve from equipment or non-Inspiration buffs (what does Crowns of the Faithful do with Resolve currently?).

 

By the way, what exactly does the negative chance from going below 10 Resolve mean? Would it mean an X% chance to have the power level of your ability reduced?

 

 

 

You’d still gain Deflection and Will. There is no “purely” passive build in Deadfire unless you steadfastly refuse to use your 1st level active power.

This proposal limits the impact of Empower (outside of restoring resources) to +5 Power Levels instead of the current +10 (though that could still be attained on a double Empower). I.e., while an Empowered enemy ability could be nasty, the leap in power would not be astronomical.

 

I am really glad that it is only a +5 PL empower. This is still a lot if you are low level, but by the later stages and especially when fighting strong creatures you'd hardly notice. And yeah he made it sound like depower will be a thing too. If you dump resolve there would be 21% for -5 PL. Not a huge thing for some abilities, but I wonder how projectile spells work with negative PL. Some mostly auto attack based barbarians for example could still dump res and might endure an occasionally -25% duration frenzy.

 

I'm starting to like this idea, curious how it plays out

Edited February 27, 2018 by Insidous

[IndiraLightfoot]

As one of the few who really like this idea, I do hope that Josh let us test it in a beta, at least. If I'm lucky, more people warm up to the idea, and it'll get a neat implementation in Deadfire. It is still a great idea to make Empower attractive as well.

[JerekKruger]

Just noticed your tags Indira. They made me chuckle 

[theBalthazar]

PL + 5 is already more viable.

 

Only MaxQuest can tell us the real gain of DPS of this new thing.

 

3 % per point with PowerLevel +5

 

But that is not extremely variable for each classes and each spell ? More variables = more effect ? (like penetration+damage+number VS Time duration only)

Edited February 27, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Insidous]

PL + 5 is already more viable.

 

Only MaxQuest can tell us the real gain of DPS of this new thing.

 

3 % per point with PowerLevel +5

 

But that is not extremely variable for each classes and each spell ? More variables = more effect ? (like penetration+damage+number VS Time duration only)

 

Yes the variance is huge. Also some stuff is still unclear, for example how it affects attack abilities. Most of those don't really scale with power level, but get a bonus of 20 accuracy and 5 penetration when used with the current empower. I would imagine you'll get a +10 acc, +2.5 pen bonus with this version, but we don't know yet.

 

In general the impact is biggest while being low level and casting a multi projectile spell. Damage spells healing get a decent boost as well, attack abilities only when it helps you overcome high defense or armor and cc spells/buffs are hardly impacted at all.  

[Wormerine]

 

30 % of empower

 

LOL. Resolve = killer stat. 30 % to increase by 10 Power Level your spell ? Insane... Need to balance !^^

 

Not a big fan of the idea.

 

It's worse than that. An appropriately built Orlan can start the game with 20 Resolve. Then with an Inspiration they can hit 25, so 45%. That's before any bonuses to Resolve from equipment or non-Inspiration buffs (what does Crowns of the Faithful do with Resolve currently?).

 

By the way, what exactly does the negative chance from going below 10 Resolve mean? Would it mean an X% chance to have the power level of your ability reduced?

 

I think so:

 

20 resolve = after 10 seconds of battle with every use of ability there is 30% to cast its empowered version (+5 power level).

3 resolve = after 10 seconds of battle with every use of ability there is 21% to cast its depowered version (-5 power level).

 

Ahhhh, where to start. In extreme cases it seems really really strong or really really crappy - with low resolve do not use your abilities after first 10 seconds of combat. At the same time a small variance of resolve (9, 11, 12) seems simply irrelevant: you have 12 resolve - you have 6% chance to empower your ability. XCOM2 has an weapon attatchment which with everyshot gives you 5% chance to kill an enemy. Guess how many times in one playthrough (40-80hours?) does it happen. 2-3 times? (I suspect it might be rigged though, which invalidates comparison. When it happens it is always surprisingly helpful). While other attributes give consistant bonus with every point invested, resolve seems like an "All in or bust" situation. 

 

I have been thinking what was said on the forum, and I wouldn't mind a "WIld Mage" subclass which trades per rest empower with this random mechanic. But making it an attribute? I might create a mage which focuses on might and resolve, but for most part resolve will be between 8-10. Again taking XCOM example, though due to different mechanics it might be a wrong comparison - a +1 constant damage is better than low chance all in. There is a reason War of the Chosen locked many weapons from using scope attatchment (+15 aim) - as much as 15% to regain action, or kill someone in one hit etc. might seem "fun" they are just not reliable enough to be part of a strategy, while flat aim, damage, armor, life, penetration boost allow player to use those advantages. 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Wormerine

[dunehunter]

PL actually raise your attack abilities’ basic damage.

[JerekKruger]

Given it is only going to be +5 power levels I will probably stick with my policy of running Resolve 10 characters. I'd find the occasional penalty annoying but I don't think the benefit is worth building for.

 

Now if it were +10 power levels I might build for it for some characters, although I suspect that would be overpowered.

[JerekKruger]

PL actually raise your attack abilities’ basic damage.

 

Doesn't it depend on which ability? I thought that, for example, the various Minoletta Missile abilities got extra projectiles but their damage per missilt remained the same, and for summoned weapons I know for a fact that damage is unaffected.

[Insidous]

 

PL actually raise your attack abilities’ basic damage.

 

Doesn't it depend on which ability? I thought that, for example, the various Minoletta Missile abilities got extra projectiles but their damage per missilt remained the same, and for summoned weapons I know for a fact that damage is unaffected.

 

 

These are the default PL scalings:

 

"DefaultMultiProjectileScaling": {

            "DamageAdjustment": 1.05,

            "DurationAdjustment": 1,

            "BounceCountAdjustment": 0,

            "ProjectileCountAdjustment": 0.5,

            "AccuracyAdjustment": 1,

            "PenetrationAdjustment": 0.25

          },

          "DefaultBounceScaling": {

            "DamageAdjustment": 1.05,

            "DurationAdjustment": 1,

            "BounceCountAdjustment": 0.5,

            "ProjectileCountAdjustment": 0,

            "AccuracyAdjustment": 1,

            "PenetrationAdjustment": 0.25

          },

          "DefaultEffectScaling": {

            "DamageAdjustment": 1.1,

            "DurationAdjustment": 1.05,

            "BounceCountAdjustment": 0,

            "ProjectileCountAdjustment": 0,

            "AccuracyAdjustment": 1,

            "PenetrationAdjustment": 0.25

          },

          "DefaultWeaponAttackScaling": {

            "DamageAdjustment": 1.05,

            "DurationAdjustment": 1.05,

            "BounceCountAdjustment": 0,

            "ProjectileCountAdjustment": 0,

            "AccuracyAdjustment": 1,

            "PenetrationAdjustment": 0.25

          },

          "DefaultFallbackScaling": {

            "DamageAdjustment": 1.05,

            "DurationAdjustment": 1,

            "BounceCountAdjustment": 0,

            "ProjectileCountAdjustment": 0,

            "AccuracyAdjustment": 2,

            "PenetrationAdjustment": 0.25

          },

 

So yeah Minoletta Missles get 0.5 additional projectiles per PL, but also get additional damage and pen buffs.

 

I'm still unsure what exactly applies to full attack abilities, I guess stuff that adds a plain damage value profits from the "DamageAdjustment": 1.05, but is your basic attack weapon damage also increased? So FoD for example would scale with your equipped weapon and PL? That would make that ability much stronger in the late game with the lash and "DamageAdjustment" bonus multiplied. 

There are also following lines:

 

          "AbilityBaseAccuracyPerAbilityLevel": 2,

          "AbilityBasePenetrationPerAbilityLevel": 0.5,

          "EmpoweredWeaponAccuracyBonus": 20,

          "EmpoweredWeaponPenetrationBonus": 5,

 

which definitely apply on empower, but don't apply to your basic power level. When it comes to the penetration value I think only the "EmpoweredWeaponPenetrationBonus": 5, has an impact.

I can't test all this right now, so I would appreciate if someone knows more.

 

Other notes:

- Yeah summoned weapon spells only scale with 5% bonus duration per PL, quite bad

- I don't know for which spells the "DefaultFallbackScaling" is used

[CottonWolf]

Wounding shot, at least, also has direct damage scaling with power level. I'm not sure what the percent increase per power level is, or whether the increase in multiplicative or additive however.

[theBalthazar]

So in short, empower was unbalanced between classes (Wizards++ Ranger - -) AND between spells (AoE damage/projectiles++ VS Personnal buff- -)...

 

...And Now, it is at the center of the gameplay : an attribute rule that.

 

I prefer one of theses two solutions :

 

1

Resolve give a bonus action speed for empower attack. (+/- 2 % per point)

Notion of "change of destiny" If I can't launch my spell before critical moment... Empower become a good tool to act before problems. Buff are rewarded.

 

OR

 

2

Dexterity take Casting time (+/- 4 %). Resolve take recovery time (+/- 4%)

Resolve is pick up by melee characters... Deflection is needed for melees. Perfect. 0.7 Casting time is less problematic for them. Contrary to recovery time (until 4s). Same for casters (6s of casting time, and often less in recovery...)

 

 

 

Get a random effect is not interresting for a strategic way of play. Like Max said, if I reload to have a better chance to trigger the effect of resolve ? Hum...

 

Perhaps you win the fight by chance. Not with your own skill...

Edited February 27, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Gromnir]

Yeah, I should specify that I don't hate the current-BB STR-RES setup. 

am gonna admit we do not understand much o' the hate for strength. sure, there is "bad" builds possible with strength.  building 5 strength and 18 constitution pure casters is reasonable, but worse, is current the obvious route to take with character development.   similar, is more than a few tanks who can zero-out strength and jack constitution for net fort save benefits and atmospheric health at the cost of weapon damage... weapon damage no doubt countered by some kinda spell damage and healing given the multitude o' multiclass options. strength is not w/o exploitive opportunities.  the thing is, might were equal bad with any number o' players simple doing the same kinda silliness with resolve.  takes a few minutes, but review the builds section o' the poe board and see how many folks recommend basement resolve.  resolve were a dump stat for a large % o' poe builds, whereas strength is a dump stat for a handful.

 

might is, in our opinion, a big mistake for deadfire.  we liked might in poe, but poe did not have multiclassing.  paladin/caster, monk/caster, rogue/caster, barbarian/caster, and almost every other combo o' anything/caster, is seeing exploitive builds taking advantage o' big weapon damage.  *chuckle* should be obvious many o' the current most unbalanced multiclasses is the combos which is gonna disproportionate benefit from a return o' might.  a warlock, which is already doing comical damage in the deadfire beta, will be affected in what way by a revert to might? will already excessive damage numbers increase or decrease? 

 

am actual surprised by the proposed might revert from obsidian.  am hopeful there is a twitch soonish 'cause am gonna want to know what has changed since might were adopted to make a reversion anything other than a terrible idea. 

 

again, we liked might in poe, but deadfire is not poe.  multiclass changes the equation.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Dr <3]

Anyway +5 power lvl is not an absurd boost. You get a random chance to have a moderate dmg boost/ better effect,that's it.

 

I'm writing from my phone so i can't run heavy math, but the safest comparison is with perception. Every point of perception increase your critical chance and lower your graze/ miss chance. So every point of perception means more or less + 1% chance to do between + 30% and +50% dmg , without even considering the whole penetration thing ( i didn't play the beta for a while, so i'm a bit "late" about the correct graze and crit multpliers).

 

So i don't get the whole "luck" / "randomness" thing.

Until yesterday if you rolled a perfect 100 when tring to hit a dragon with a paralyze/ gaze of adragan/ random disable and got one hit or crit instead of a miss you had won the fight, and nobody ever complained about it; and nobody did massive "save scumming" to secure that kind of roll at the start of the fight.

[Boeroer]

 

Yeah, I should specify that I don't hate the current-BB STR-RES setup. 

am gonna admit we do not understand much o' the hate for strength. sure, there is "bad" builds possible with strength.  building 5 strength and 18 constitution pure casters is reasonable, but worse, is current the obvious route to take with character development.   similar, is more than a few tanks who can zero-out strength and jack constitution for net fort save benefits and atmospheric health at the cost of weapon damage... weapon damage no doubt countered by some kinda spell damage and healing given the multitude o' multiclass options. strength is not w/o exploitive opportunities.  the thing is, might were equal bad with any number o' players simple doing the same kinda silliness with resolve.  takes a few minutes, but review the builds section o' the poe board and see how many folks recommend basement resolve.  resolve were a dump stat for a large % o' poe builds, whereas strength is a dump stat for a handful.

 

might is, in our opinion, a big mistake for deadfire.  we liked might in poe, but poe did not have multiclassing.  paladin/caster, monk/caster, rogue/caster, barbarian/caster, and almost every other combo o' anything/caster, is seeing exploitive builds taking advantage o' big weapon damage.  *chuckle* should be obvious many o' the current most unbalanced multiclasses is the combos which is gonna disproportionate benefit from a return o' might.  a warlock, which is already doing comical damage in the deadfire beta, will be affected in what way by a revert to might? will already excessive damage numbers increase or decrease? 

 

am actual surprised by the proposed might revert from obsidian.  am hopeful there is a twitch soonish 'cause am gonna want to know what has changed since might were adopted to make a reversion anything other than a terrible idea. 

 

again, we liked might in poe, but deadfire is not poe.  multiclass changes the equation.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I personally am quite indifferent towards MIG or STR/RES. But I think you're making some good points there.

 

The reason why they revert it might be: Josh said that he likes to throw radical changes at us and then see how they are perceived rather than going the incremental route. The feedback seemed to be unambiguous (?). Maybe that's why. Just speculation though.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Boeroer

[KDubya]

With the new Resolve a Cipher with Psychovampiric Shield gets a +5 Resolve I think so if you had a few invested and a few from an item you could easily get to a 20 Resolve with minimal effort and have a 30% chance of empowering your powers. That sounds worthwhile and even fun. if you went all in with a 20 base resolve you could get to 28 easily for a 54% chance.

 

If nothing else it'll keep people from dumping it so much 

 

Wasn't there a priest spell that buffed Resolve like 20 points or something like that? That could be pretty sick with the new system.

[Boeroer]

It used to be 25 with Crowns for the Faithful. Don't know if this is still in. I guess not like in PoE. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Boeroer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

My only issue with this proposal as such is that it seems like a weird ass set of bonus criticals/grazes and they still haven't de-nerfed Perception's criticals, so I'm not sure how many different simultaneous critical hit systems the game really needs.  It seems likely to make combat really swingy.

 

If they're gonna go this route I'd prefer something like:

 

1) All empowers are half-strength of what they are now; you start each fight with two of them

 

2) Resolve has a chance to either give (or remove, depending) an empower every five seconds or so of fight time

 

3) you still get to choose when you use the bonus empower

 

4) empowers used to refresh spells give you a single spell cast of your choice back, not all your casts

 

The idea has merit I just dont like (yet another random element) added in on top of the attack roll mechanics. 

[JerekKruger]

It used to be 25 with Crowns for the Faithful. Don't know if this is still in. I guess not like in PoE. 

 

I for one hope that if this Resolve suggestion makes it into the final release Obsidian forget to change this for at least the first patch. Having a base Resolve 3 character being able to hit 54% empower chance sounds like a fun bug

[DozingDragon]

Ok, assuming that there is a group of people that hate strength/resolve, let’s assume that resolve needs a buff to support the reversion. Right now, crits do less in Deadfire than in PoE. Instead of adding in another mechanic with random empowers, just scale the magnitude of crits up or down depending on resolve. 10 resolve could be a base of 25%, and go up or down by 3% per point of resolve.

 

Every build would be impacted, and it prevents resolve from being a dump stat. Any thoughts?