Wormerine Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 I absolutely loved Pallegina’s confrontation with Hylea. Other than that she was the first one I liked, due to being easier to understand is one of few characters to have “cool” aura around them, but on the long run not quite as memorable. Still, looking forward to seeing her in Deadfire. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koth Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) Point a) is not true in general, at least not for PoE. Official Companions start 1 level above hired adventurers which is a big advantage in the early game. And later on the game gets so easy that the non-optimized stats don't matter at all and also the impact of stats compared to the impact abilities and items have is negligible. A reason to hire adventurers can be that a certain companion comes pretty late - so let's say you want a rogue in the party but Devil of Caroc comes so late - you'd take a hireling rogue. Sidekicks may give you the possibility to choose from a wider variety of classes (as party members) and still have banter and talks and not a bland and kinda soulless bot. Also: Sidekicks have quests. That alone might make it worthwhile to take them with you. I guess with regards to point a) I was less referring to the individual lack of attribute optimisation and more the fact that you don't get to pick and choose an exact custom class / multi-class combination that best suits the roles that you would like fulfilled at any given moment. Regardless however, you have answered my question in your final statement. The fact that the sidekicks offer quests will be enough for me to try and save a spot for rotating sidekicks to fulfil their quests. I was under the impression that the only quests relating to sidekicks would be the ones required to get them to join the party in the first place. If you're saying that this is not the case, then it changes things enough for me to try and squeeze one in. Cheers. Edited March 6, 2018 by Koth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huang Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 I was under the impression that the only quests relating to sidekicks would be the ones required to get them to join the party in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's what they meant. :D As far as I know, Sidekicks only have that 1 quest to get them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koth Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 I was under the impression that the only quests relating to sidekicks would be the ones required to get them to join the party in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's what they meant. :D As far as I know, Sidekicks only have that 1 quest to get them. Ok then, now I'm confused. If this is the case then.. well.. *to me* sidekicks are a complete waste of a more valuable slot that could go to either a pre-made character offering optimised class combination and stats or companion offering story line, roleplaying, relationships and dedicated quest lines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yosharian Posted March 6, 2018 Author Share Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) I was under the impression that the only quests relating to sidekicks would be the ones required to get them to join the party in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's what they meant. :D As far as I know, Sidekicks only have that 1 quest to get them. Ok then, now I'm confused. If this is the case then.. well.. *to me* sidekicks are a complete waste of a more valuable slot that could go to either a pre-made character offering optimised class combination and stats or companion offering story line, roleplaying, relationships and dedicated quest lines... Exactly. But Ydwin... <3 I guess one option is to recruit the NPC in-game, then replace them with a hireling with the same name and the same portrait, then replace them with the NPC just before you finish the game? Or Obsi could just allow us to modify sidekicks... oh no, can't allow that, it's forbidden Edited March 6, 2018 by Yosharian Yosharian's Deadfire Builds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koth Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 I was under the impression that the only quests relating to sidekicks would be the ones required to get them to join the party in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's what they meant. :D As far as I know, Sidekicks only have that 1 quest to get them. Ok then, now I'm confused. If this is the case then.. well.. *to me* sidekicks are a complete waste of a more valuable slot that could go to either a pre-made character offering optimised class combination and stats or companion offering story line, roleplaying, relationships and dedicated quest lines... Exactly. But Ydwin... <3 Well played sir! My only possible counter to this infallible argument will be to steal her pics in game and then make a pre-made with her name and portraits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 I was under the impression that the only quests relating to sidekicks would be the ones required to get them to join the party in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's what they meant. :D As far as I know, Sidekicks only have that 1 quest to get them. Ok then, now I'm confused. If this is the case then.. well.. *to me* sidekicks are a complete waste of a more valuable slot that could go to either a pre-made character offering optimised class combination and stats or companion offering story line, roleplaying, relationships and dedicated quest lines... I can’t wrap my head around the “all or nothing” attitude. Better to have no integration into the story than some because unnecessary min/maxing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yosharian Posted March 6, 2018 Author Share Posted March 6, 2018 I was under the impression that the only quests relating to sidekicks would be the ones required to get them to join the party in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's what they meant. :D As far as I know, Sidekicks only have that 1 quest to get them. Ok then, now I'm confused. If this is the case then.. well.. *to me* sidekicks are a complete waste of a more valuable slot that could go to either a pre-made character offering optimised class combination and stats or companion offering story line, roleplaying, relationships and dedicated quest lines...I can’t wrap my head around the “all or nothing” attitude. Better to have no integration into the story than some because unnecessary min/maxing? I don't think the position that Koth and I have on the game is one that is hard to understand. We both take great pleasure in creating excellent characters. Having a character that's 'only just good enough' or non-optimized, is displeasing. It's not a particularly hard position to comprehend, in my opinion. Hundreds of millions of players all around the world play all kinds of games, even non-videogame ones, in this manner. 1 Yosharian's Deadfire Builds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malchiorita Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 I was under the impression that the only quests relating to sidekicks would be the ones required to get them to join the party in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's what they meant. :D As far as I know, Sidekicks only have that 1 quest to get them. Ok then, now I'm confused. If this is the case then.. well.. *to me* sidekicks are a complete waste of a more valuable slot that could go to either a pre-made character offering optimised class combination and stats or companion offering story line, roleplaying, relationships and dedicated quest lines... I can’t wrap my head around the “all or nothing” attitude. Better to have no integration into the story than some because unnecessary min/maxing? Well, it's all about tradeoff imho,It's not about the min maxing per se. Using sidekicks/companions i sacrifice part of the combat fun i would have using the most intersting class/subclass combination. So if i sacrifice that, it has to be worth it... I could do that for interesting companions with deep personality, interactions with other npcs, personal quests and so on. I'd definitely not do it just for a line of dialogue from time to time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 I was under the impression that the only quests relating to sidekicks would be the ones required to get them to join the party in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's what they meant. :D As far as I know, Sidekicks only have that 1 quest to get them. Ok then, now I'm confused. If this is the case then.. well.. *to me* sidekicks are a complete waste of a more valuable slot that could go to either a pre-made character offering optimised class combination and stats or companion offering story line, roleplaying, relationships and dedicated quest lines... I can’t wrap my head around the “all or nothing” attitude. Better to have no integration into the story than some because unnecessary min/maxing?Well, it's all about tradeoff imho,It's not about the min maxing per se. Using sidekicks/companions i sacrifice part of the combat fun i would have using the most intersting class/subclass combination. So if i sacrifice that, it has to be worth it... I could do that for interesting companions with deep personality, interactions with other npcs, personal quests and so on. I'd definitely not do it just for a line of dialogue from time to time. FFS, no one is stopping you from taking a party of hirelings. “Deep companions” take time and cost money and the opportunity cost of having more of them is quality. I feel like Josh has said this about a million times. You can’t have more full companions. Full stop. With that said your options are: 1) take sidekicks and get some integration 2) take hirelings and get no integration 3) throw a tantrum...then do option 1 or 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malchiorita Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 No one is stopping me from taking hirelings... Expcept the fact that companions are half of the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yosharian Posted March 6, 2018 Author Share Posted March 6, 2018 > throw a tantrum Yet more quality discussion from Achilles ladies and gentlemen! Tune in tomorrow to see more passive-aggressive abuse hurled at reasonable forumgoers attempting reasoned debate 2 Yosharian's Deadfire Builds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koth Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 I was under the impression that the only quests relating to sidekicks would be the ones required to get them to join the party in the first place.I'm pretty sure that's what they meant. :D As far as I know, Sidekicks only have that 1 quest to get them.Ok then, now I'm confused. If this is the case then.. well.. *to me* sidekicks are a complete waste of a more valuable slot that could go to either a pre-made character offering optimised class combination and stats or companion offering story line, roleplaying, relationships and dedicated quest lines...I can’t wrap my head around the “all or nothing” attitude. Better to have no integration into the story than some because unnecessary min/maxing?Well, it's all about tradeoff imho,It's not about the min maxing per se. Using sidekicks/companions i sacrifice part of the combat fun i would have using the most intersting class/subclass combination. So if i sacrifice that, it has to be worth it... I could do that for interesting companions with deep personality, interactions with other npcs, personal quests and so on. I'd definitely not do it just for a line of dialogue from time to time. FFS, no one is stopping you from taking a party of hirelings. “Deep companions” take time and cost money and the opportunity cost of having more of them is quality. I feel like Josh has said this about a million times. You can’t have more full companions. Full stop. With that said your options are: 1) take sidekicks and get some integration 2) take hirelings and get no integration 3) throw a tantrum...then do option 1 or 2 I'd hardly consider my opinion or stance on the matter as being emotive or hyperbolic... I was merely quizzical as to why I should consider taking a sidekick over a hireling which offers better customisation or a companion that offers some nice story and background to the game. But I think both Yosharian and Malchiorita have summed it up better than I could at the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Gates' Son Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) I was merely quizzical as to why I should consider taking a sidekick over a hireling which offers better customisation or a companion that offers some nice story and background to the game. But I think both Yosharian and Malchiorita have summed it up better than I could at the time... So, would you rather they not include sidekicks at all? Edited March 6, 2018 by Bill Gates' Son Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koth Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) I was merely quizzical as to why I should consider taking a sidekick over a hireling which offers better customisation or a companion that offers some nice story and background to the game. But I think both Yosharian and Malchiorita have summed it up better than I could at the time... So, would you rather they not include sidekicks at all? I don't really mind if they do or if they don't. I hardly think that there's all that much developer time invested in setting up a virtual 'hireling' with an initial quest line and a few lines of dialog. If people go for this, then great! Kudo's to them, I just wanted to make sure I won't be missing out on anything by not taking them, and as far as I can tell, I will not. From what I can see, sidekicks are just a skinned hireling with limited class combination options and sub-optimal attributes (am guessing the latter will be the case based on PoE, but could be wrong)... Edited March 7, 2018 by Koth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormerine Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I am still not 100% sure what sidekicks actually are. We know they won’t have personal quest or story arc. Will they have banter, interjections and some interactions? If so, seems like a worthy addition. Even if they will be just implimented hirelings, they expand available classes to choose from to fill the roster. Why not have them? I for one won’t use mercenaries, while I might use a sidekick if I want to experiment with their class in my roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yosharian Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 I am still not 100% sure what sidekicks actually are. We know they won’t have personal quest or story arc. Will they have banter, interjections and some interactions? If so, seems like a worthy addition. Even if they will be just implimented hirelings, they expand available classes to choose from to fill the roster. Why not have them? I for one won’t use mercenaries, while I might use a sidekick if I want to experiment with their class in my roster. If they have banter, I agree. Yosharian's Deadfire Builds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huang Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I am still not 100% sure what sidekicks actually are. We know they won’t have personal quest or story arc. Will they have banter, interjections and some interactions? If so, seems like a worthy addition. Even if they will be just implimented hirelings, they expand available classes to choose from to fill the roster. Why not have them? I for one won’t use mercenaries, while I might use a sidekick if I want to experiment with their class in my roster. I guess it all comes down to why one plays this/these game/s. I play it primarily for the stories and characters. That doesn't mean I don't care about the combat etc. at all, just that it's not my main interest. And as that player type I prefer characters made by the devs, not me. I rather have a strange character in my party, than whatever fan-fic character. Icewind Dale wasn't a bad game, but I couldn't enjoy it nearly as much as BG, because it lacked all these deeper characters in my party. Therefore, I'm sure as hell going to use such sidekicks over characters I would have to create myself. I also fully expect them to bring back a ship-mechanic like the stronghold adventures in Pillars 1, which will temporarily "consume" one or more party members - so it's good to have a few people in reserve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yonjuro Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I am still not 100% sure what sidekicks actually are. We know they won’t have personal quest or story arc. The example that Josh Sawyer used to explain sidekicks was Mazzy from BG2. Unlike, say, Jaheira, who had a complex story that spanned most of the game, Mazzy was involved in the Umar Hills story where you meet her and help her avenge her companions. She had one additional quest to help her sister that triggered later. She also had banters with the PC and several other party members that could trigger throughout the game and a few other interactions with NPCs in the world. I thought Mazzy (and Keldorn as another example, or Edwin, if you like to keep things evil) was a good (or, err, evil in Edwin's case) character even though her story was less complex than Jaheira or Viconia. A simple, well written story coupled with good voice acting (Jennifer Hale voiced Mazzy) can go a long way. We don't know exactly what to expect in Deadfire, but if we got a character like Mazzy, I would be ok with that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yosharian Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 Mazzy also has superb dexterity, giving her great AC, lots of constitution making her tough to kill, and she's got tons of proficiency points in Shortbow and Shortsword making her a great damage dealer straight off the bat. The Wiki says she has Haste but I can't remember why she has that. You can give her Tansheron's Bow, the Gesen Bow, etc and she'll just crush it. There are some good shortswords in BG2 as well. Also the bants between her and Korgan are bloody hilarious. So yeah, Mazzy is a solid character. Her portrait is awesome, too. And she's voiced by Jennifer Hale Yosharian's Deadfire Builds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morhilane Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) I am still not 100% sure what sidekicks actually are. We know they won’t have personal quest or story arc. The example that Josh Sawyer used to explain sidekicks was Mazzy from BG2. Unlike, say, Jaheira, who had a complex story that spanned most of the game, Mazzy was involved in the Umar Hills story where you meet her and help her avenge her companions. She had one additional quest to help her sister that triggered later. She also had banters with the PC and several other party members that could trigger throughout the game and a few other interactions with NPCs in the world. I thought Mazzy (and Keldorn as another example, or Edwin, if you like to keep things evil) was a good (or, err, evil in Edwin's case) character even though her story was less complex than Jaheira or Viconia. A simple, well written story coupled with good voice acting (Jennifer Hale voiced Mazzy) can go a long way. We don't know exactly what to expect in Deadfire, but if we got a character like Mazzy, I would be ok with that. Kinda funny to use Mazzy as an example of a sidekick, considering she is involved in 3 quests in BG2, the most of all the companions. While Jaheira/Viconia just have romance related stuff outside their initial recruiting... Edited March 7, 2018 by morhilane Azarhal, Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order of Eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I am still not 100% sure what sidekicks actually are. We know they won’t have personal quest or story arc. The example that Josh Sawyer used to explain sidekicks was Mazzy from BG2. He's also used Minsc. Party banter. Some funny lines. But mostly there to just be Minsc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huang Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) While Jaheira/Viconia just have romance related stuff outside their initial recruiting... That's not true. Jaheira has this awesome quest in which she is cursed/poisoned and will actually die unless you resolve it in time. She also runs into more harpers and... There is more going on with her in this game than just a possible romance. Edited March 7, 2018 by huang 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valmy Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Ok then, now I'm confused. If this is the case then.. well.. *to me* sidekicks are a complete waste of a more valuable slot that could go to either a pre-made character offering optimised class combination and stats or companion offering story line, roleplaying, relationships and dedicated quest lines... How do you know this? I didn't think any of the characters were in the beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fardragon Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I'm kind of bored with long wall-of-text conversations with companions (and even more bored with fully voiced conversations, thanks to MA: Andromeda). So I'm looking forwards to using sidekicks. 2 Everyone knows Science Fiction is really cool. You know what PoE really needs? Spaceships! There isn't any game that wouldn't be improved by a space combat minigame. Adding one to PoE would send sales skyrocketing, and ensure the game was remembered for all time!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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