The Black Jacket (and the increase of proficiency points)

[IndiraLightfoot]

@morhilane: Not at all. I feel exactly the same way, and I made a post about it in the Josh tweets thread as soon as I heard about this change:

 

 

I like finding equipment I can't use because it informs me of potential opportunities for subsequent play-throughs.

 

It's boring when all the equipment you find is usable, because then everything is either trash or some moderate upgrade. (Occasionally a big upgrade.)

 

Where the alternative is you find a lot of wild things, mostly worthwhile, where the issue is that you don't have a proficiency in something. But the weapon may still merit a use for a while.

Yeah, this is exactly how I feel too. And as DexGames so aptly demonstrated, our party of five will be "proficient" with every single weapon, shield, etc and then some with this new every third level. Personally, I find this even worse. I'd rather have two picks, one per every tenth level or something, if you'd twist my arm.

 

I reckon, it's pretty clear that Josh is adapting the game for the casuals (statistics showing that a normal person play like 30-70% of the game once), so he's opted for the inclusive approach, whereas I love the opposite: the exclusive approach, where it soon becomes clear to me that my party with one single class druid, one single class rogue, one fighter/wizard, one pally/monk and one single class cipher, all having made specific class choices at that, with a few select weapon proficiency picks, is something clearly different than my second party with a single class priest, a single class spell wizard, a chanter/rogue, a ghost wolf ranger and a single class fighter, for instance. 

 

[CottonWolf]

That also depends on the average enemies' AR.

 

Surely it depends on the range, not the average. The AR piercing weapons are inherently situational. Perhaps you can mop up basically everything with the greatsword, but if the one thing that's left is the massive titan with the high AR you're doing 30% damage against, that's the estoc's time to shine.

 

The average AR might be 5 in that encounter, but it's the max AR that actually matters for the weapon choice/switching.

Edited February 20, 2018 by CottonWolf

[morhilane]

 

@morhilane: Not at all. I feel exactly the same way, and I made a post about it in the Josh tweets thread as soon as I heard about this change:

 

 

I like finding equipment I can't use because it informs me of potential opportunities for subsequent play-throughs.

 

It's boring when all the equipment you find is usable, because then everything is either trash or some moderate upgrade. (Occasionally a big upgrade.)

 

Where the alternative is you find a lot of wild things, mostly worthwhile, where the issue is that you don't have a proficiency in something. But the weapon may still merit a use for a while.

Yeah, this is exactly how I feel too. And as DexGames so aptly demonstrated, our party of five will be "proficient" with every single weapon, shield, etc and then some with this new every third level. Personally, I find this even worse. I'd rather have two picks, one per every tenth level or something, if you'd twist my arm.

 

I reckon, it's pretty clear that Josh is adapting the game for the casuals (statistics showing that a normal person play like 30-70% of the game once), so he's opted for the inclusive approach, whereas I love the opposite: the exclusive approach, where it soon becomes clear to me that my party with one single class druid, one single class rogue, one fighter/wizard, one pally/monk and one single class cipher, all having made specific class choices at that, with a few select weapon proficiency picks, is something clearly different than my second party with a single class priest, a single class spell wizard, a chanter/rogue, a ghost wolf ranger and a single class fighter, for instance. 

 

I'm not sure the design is being adapted to the "casuals" with this change, there was already no penalty for not being proficient in a weapon, all you are missing out is the modal. "Casuals" are the less likely to turn on modals or switch weapons. They will complains about "No Pen, No Pen, No Pen" though...if that is even a thing once the game release the way things are going.

 

In fact, I have no idea who complained about the lack of proficiency "slots"...someone must really like the modals, lol.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Well, now casuals do get to try out all the modals.

[dunehunter]

Is there anyway to give them a bonus pen or accuracy when attacking certain armor weaknesses?

Like this idea, attack enemies weakness => swap weapon => using BlackJack’s feature. If ppls find no urge to swap weapon then the easiest way is give them bonus to do so.

 

Just wonder how hard is it to imply this mechanism in-game. Since there are nothing called armor weakness in game, only immune. And all armor difference is just data.

Edited February 20, 2018 by dunehunter

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Is there anyway to give them a bonus pen or accuracy when attacking certain armor weaknesses?

Like this idea, attack enemies weakness => swap weapon => using BlackJack’s feature. If ppls find no urge to swap weapon then the easiest way is give them bonus to do so.

 

Just wonder how hard is it to imply this mechanism in-game. Since there are nothing called armor weakness in game, only immune. And all armor difference is just data.

 

IIRC, when they started talking about subclasses Black Jacket was mentioned as having better Pen against weak armor types(blunt against fullplate) at the cost of an accuracy penalty against normal or strong armor. Given how different the beta implementation of Black jacket was, either it was difficult to implement in game or when tested it was worse than what we have now.

[wahmann1]

Hi everyone. This is my first comment ever!

 

I rather like that the proficiencies are situational, as JS indicated was the intention. I think some of them are perfect, like the large shield and pollaxe; some of them are great, but don't really fit the weapon, like saber's increased penetration; and I think some leave something to be desired, like the dagger (because it is not situational enough--you are reasonably likely to just click the modal for the defense bonus and forget about it). I noticed some folks complaining about the increased PEN of the saber, but that is one of the few modals that I will routinely use when it is appropriate, such as when I'm getting "No PEN" when attacking with it. If I could change them, I would make them more intuitive, rather than more varied. For example, the piercing modal can be more PEN, slashing inflicts bleed, and bludgeoning interrupts (as a baseline). I wouldn't mind the defensive bonus for the staff if it was more situational. For example, non-modal could be half-staff, which has good reach and modal could be quarter-staff, which does not have reach, but provides better defense. 

 

I would also make some modals cycle through three or more options. For example, I would make the Hunters Bow have a bleed effect without a modal (due to the use of a hunting arrow as the standard) and flight arrow (for increased range without bleed) as the modal and War Bow have increased PEN without a modal (due to the use of an armor piercing arrow as the standard) and flight arrow as the modal, but if you take both proficiencies, you can cycle through flight, bladed, and AP arrows when using either bow. 

 

For weapons with two damage types (e.g., pierce and slash), I would make the non-modal the more natural of the two damage types. The damage type would determine the effect, such as increased PEN when using a warhammer to pierce (modal) and improved interrupt when using the warhammer to bludgeon (non-modal). 

 

I would like to be able to use a proficiency to gain an extra skill point. It is not situational, but it is probably not too powerful either. You could limit to passive skill points or characterize it as a "jack of all trades, but master of none" skill choice that requires you only spend the skill point on a skill that is not maxed out. Especially if it has a jack-of-all-trades limitation, you could let a character take it multiple times. 

 

I would like to be able to use a proficiency to gain a ship crew ability. This could be restricted to companions, if the main character needs to be the captain, but it probably isn't necessary. Once you can be ship crew, you can gain stars like any other crew member. If you get hit with a cannon ball, that should result in a wound that you have to heal, but you don't need to be paid wages, so it is still a beneficial choice. I don't know how I would handle morale in this case, but if you put your companion in the crew and don't feed er, er opinion of you could quite reasonably drop; if you don't want to take that risk, don't make er act as crew. 

 

I would like (hopefully low) skill levels to open up additional modal choices. For example, where the bow proficiencies can get you flight, bladed, or AP arrows, if you have alchemy 2, you can spend a proficiency to get flaming arrows (increased damage, lower fire rate) and if you have explosives 2, you can spend a proficiency to get explosive arrows (extend the range of your explosives at a lower fire rate). This is probably asking too much: If you have a staff proficiency and arcana 2, you can spend a proficiency to get improved concentration when casting a spell, but take longer to cast spells, as an additional staff modal. Arcana 2 could also open up spellcasting modals that generally reduce defenses in exchange for improved spell power (maybe increase spell damage for rods, reduce time to cast spells for wands, and reduce recovery time after casting spells for scepters?). 

[Boeroer]

Black Jacket

[Soulmojo]

 

That also depends on the average enemies' AR.

 

Exactly, and also depends on how much penetration buff you get access to. Not to mention that Josh wanna boost average penetration of weapon by 2 in next beta, I feel even less urge to use high pen weapon after.

 

 

The way I see it, if you start to toss more penetration across the board, then you undermine your mechanic, devaluating it, and then you make the system useless. 

To be honest I don't really want more penetration.

More penetration->my armor will be even more useless->more spike damage

Same goes the other way around. I would rather see less shocking damage decrease per point of difference.

 

1pt difference: -10%

2pt difference: -20%

4pt difference: -40%

8pt difference: -80%

10+ pt difference: -100%

 

How hard this can be to implement seriously?

Edited February 21, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Boeroer]

Not so hard I'd say. It's the type of armor mechanic I proposed to overcome the "mushyness" of a flat DR system like PoE's, where thick armor has a big impact in the early game because damage numbers and endurance are low and less impact in the late game because tour endurance pool is way bigger and the enemies deal so much damage that 10 DR difference don't matter that much.

 

But what about Black Jacket now? How could this class suck less without losing its "theme"?

Edited February 21, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

I'd say why add both Armor rate and Penetration into the game to make it complicated.

 

If we remove penetration totally and there is only Armor rate and Armor type, for example:

 

0~10 armor rate where 0 AR = 0% damage absorb, 5 AR = 50% damage absorb, 10 armor rate=damage immune. Armor type slash, pierce, crush, elemental(fire, freeze, electric, corrode).

 

High penetration weapon like estoc and warharmer now functions that they can bypass certain % of damage absorb. For example warhammer has pierce/crush type and ignore 50% of the damage absorb but has low base damage.

 

Will this be easier to understand and implement?

 

I played a lot of Dota/Dota 2 and Imo their armor system is easier to understand and work solidly. If you wanna be more tanky, boost your hp or boost your armor. If you wanna deal more damage, boost your damage/attack speed. Some special dps build can also aim at reducing enemy armor. But anyway split armor system into armor/penetration can make things really confusing.

Edited February 21, 2018 by dunehunter

[morhilane]

But what about Black Jacket now? How could this class suck less without losing its "theme"?

 

Does it still have the "no constant recovery" penalty?

 

Anyway, go back to harder penetration penalties and reduce proficiency/weapon slots for everyone so not every classes can be a Black Jacket.

 

People aren't going to like that though...because No Pen, No Pen, No Pen on everyone else.

[hilfazer]

But what about Black Jacket now? How could this class suck less without losing its "theme"?

 

They could get bonuses when targeting weakest armor type with their attacks (lashes included, spells too because multiclassing).

 

I swear it's my original idea! I didn't steal it from anyone, especially from Obsidian.

[Guest]

The level cap is 20. Under the old system a typical character could expect to end the game with 7 weapon proficiencies. Under the new system, a typical character will end the game with 8.

 

I completely fail to grasp why the additional weapon proficiency warrants the degree fervor it has generated.

 

My 2 cents?

 

The dev team had their “play week”, realized that a new proficiency every 4th level felt too soft, and made the change to help character progression feel more rewarding. You know, perspective that only someone who played the entire game, starting from level 1, would have.

 

And the people who are/were attracted to the Black Jacket subclass *probably* aren’t going to care too much about missing 1 more thing they weren’t going to use anyway.

[CottonWolf]

I think the secret is that the Black Jacket is actually bad, was bad before this change and will continue to be bad afterwards, because the benefit is marginal relative to the loss of constant recovery.

[Silvaren]

For now Black Jacket is more like quick drawing cowboy rather than versatile fighter proficient innie using multi-weapons. Since every class is "proficient" in using all weapons (they can't hurt themself while swinging), weapon focus and weapon mastery passives are more powerful than modals, modals themselves aren't much appealing.

 

I vote for making modals better, more interesting in general, but I would give black jacket modals without penalties (I guess they won't be modals anymore because there won't be reasons to turn them off). Or at least black jacket could have lesser penatlies from modals.

[Soulmojo]

Yeah fixing modals and giving weapon classes same damage would be a great start. In essence the modals without the penalties would ok-ish. Though many are just blend numerical bonus.

 

The rod and scepter modal I liked and the battleaxe damage over time modal looks interesting too. Maybe the quarterstaff +20 melee deflecton modal I could mention.

 

but the cost, man those are severe. 100% recovery penalty? -20 deflection? -20 accuracy? early game pre level 10 these are pretty unusable.

 

Level 1 greatsword. can you afford to reducer your accuracy or deflection to close to zero? don't think so...

Can you afford 100% recovery penalty in melee? no. maybe 20%-30% but that bonus really have to be good...which is not the case.

[Lamppost in Winter]

An idea I had was allowing Black Jackets to use weapon modals across weapon types, e.g., using the hatchet modal with a mace.

[Boeroer]

An idea I had was allowing Black Jackets to use weapon modals across weapon types, e.g., using the hatchet modal with a mace.

Ouh - that's a new one. Nice...

 

But I see big UI problems with this idea.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Boeroer