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Beta Speed Mod

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#1
MaxQuest

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So, as Josh stimulated us to try different casting speeds ourselves, and since I've already been tinkering with those for awhile (props to Andrea for the idea) I think I would share these modifications for everyone willing to try it.

I've made 2 mods:
- BetaSpeedMod - it changes the values of casting and recovery categories, and also adjusts several selected spells
- BetaBalancingMod - it includes the above, and also has a few balancing changes. This is still a WIP and I am experimenting with these.

Here's the full changelog:
- BetaSpeedMod:
Spoiler

- BetaBalanceMode:
Spoiler


Here are the download links:
- BetaSpeedMod: download v2
- BetaBalanceMod: download v2, download v3

How to install:
- go to <Pillars> folder (e.g: E:\Steam\steamapps\common\Pillars of Eternity II - Public Beta)
- create 'override' folder in <Pillars>/PillarsOfEternity2_Data/
- choose one mod (BetaSpeedMod OR BetaBalanceMod), and unzip it to /override folder
- you shall have the following path: <Pillars>/PillarsOfEternity2_Data/override/BetaXMod/gamedata/

What to do now:
- if you are interested: try it and share how it feels)


P.S: I am thinking now:
- of iterating through all weapon types, as their base values require a few adjustments
- re-testing few spells in combat (especially fireball)
- adding -20 respective defense malus to rank 3 afflictions (still gotta figure how to best do it)
- and perhaps later writing down the reasoning behind these changes.

But am also curious:
- Josh mentioned that they are going to increase the penetration of weapons by 2. Do you want this implemented in the mod?

Edited by MaxQuest, 24 February 2018 - 11:32 AM.

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#2
KaineParker

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You are a god damn god.

Regarding pen, I think 2 handers could have 1 more pen and fast one handers could have 1 less (with the +2 adjustment Josh mentioned) in order to align with PoE where 2 handers were good for high DR opponents and fast were bad against them.

#3
Boeroer

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I tried the BetaSpeedMod for a week now (I guess it was a week?) and it feels way better than the original beta. I did two playthroughs with several casters in the party and one with lots of melees to compare. Melee still felt better but not as much as before. And maybe my melees were better optimized than my casters, who knows?

 

It's supereasy to "install" and doesn't make the game unstable or anything. Go check it out and report! :)


Edited by Boeroer, 17 February 2018 - 01:02 PM.

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#4
MaxQuest

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^ Well, for 5 days that's for sure)

And you might want to check BetaBalanceMod now :)

P.S. Gonna take a sleep. It's a hella time consuming)
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#5
KaineParker

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So I cheated and made a party of melee casters that I outfitted in fine equipment. Devoted/Evoker Battlemage, BleakWalker/Magran Templar, Beguiler/Assassin MindStalker, Fury/Stalker Beastmaster, and a CorpseEater/Skald Howler. It feels significantly better than the vanilla game so far and melee range casters have a lot more use, so if you like the spellsowrd/gish archetype this mod helps get closer than vanilla deadfire. However I'd knock down short/narrow cone and short-range single target(like ray of fire and divine mark) down to 1.5 sec casts and take a look at the duration of some buffs(namely eldritch aim because it gets beat out by a fighter equivalent starting out), but I undertsand that being out of the scope of the beta mod. Battlemage could do more than buff and his fan of flames was pretty good for clearing the front line, Templar did better than the merc priest, Mindstalker really shone and finally gave a use to cipher powers, beastmaster was a little weird but more viable than previous beastmsters I played around with, and Skald didn't change much but they were already good with offensive invocations. So MaxQuest was right about casting times, and while this table is good there should be better grouping along the lines of that mentioned in this post: https://forums.obsid...-8#entry1966941
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#6
Nail

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Awesome mods, combat feels much better now.

Still even with this setup wizards (evoker) feels weak, can't do much when solo with only 2 first level and 1 second level spell...


Edited by Nail, 17 February 2018 - 04:26 PM.

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#7
theBalthazar

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I test that now.

 

It is really good. Far better than the actual beta. There is always some problem like :

 

Wall of flame : 6s/0.5s

 

6s like fire ball, for a damage overtime ? More 3s/0.5s

 

Essential phantom : 6s/0.5s

 

Invocations are good overtime. Not immediately. It is more 4,5s/0.5s

 

Prayer of the body : 4.5s/1.5s

 

Here, there is a problem. It is not personnal only, but 4.5s for one target seems to be too high for me atm... 2s. Must be done quick in few situations.

 

-------------------------

 

My ideal distribution for all categories of Casting Time

In red : Examples.

 

5s of Casting Time

AOE instant damage. (Fire ball with a big amount of damage)

 

4s of Casting Time

AoE Buff/Afflictions (Relentness storm, Devotion of the faithful)

Invocations of All classes except Chanter. (Essential phantom)

 

3s of Casting Time

One-target instant damage (Stag's horn)

AoE Overtime damage (Shining beacon, Wall of flames)

Cipher/Chanter AoE effects (Buff/afflictions (Puppet master, at the sound of his voice)

invocations of chanter. (If their bones)

 

2s of Casting Time

Cipher one-target effects (Buff/Afflictions) (Whisper of treason) 

One target buff (self or other) (prayer for the body)

 

1.5s-0.5s of Casting Time

Only-Personnal-buff (Weapons invocations, Sworn ennemy)

 

Notes :

- 6s will be always not possible for me. Because 90 % of the fight are ended in 10 seconds. So, I play once with my dude.

- I don't understand Obsidian with invocations. Invocations are interresting overtime, not at the end of the battle in 9s (memories...). Far less effective than a fireball in 6s.

- Self or others personnal Buff must be done quickly. 5s for prayer of the body. WTF... Even the boost of Max is not enough for me... : p

- Cipher and Chanter must have a preferential rate for their operation. They will either have to wait or do something else to use their power.


Edited by theBalthazar, 18 February 2018 - 01:50 AM.

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#8
mrmonocle

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I test that now.

 

It is really good. Far better than the actual beta. There is always some problem like :

 

Wall of flame : 6s/0.5s

 

6s like fire ball, for a damage overtime ? More 3s/0.5s

 

Essential phantom : 6s/0.5s

 

Invocations are good overtime. Not immediately. It is more 4,5s/0.5s

 

Prayer of the body : 4.5s/1.5s

 

Here, there is a problem. It is not personnal only, but 4.5s for one target seems to be too high for me atm... 2s. Must be done quick in few situations.

 

-------------------------

 

My ideal distribution for all categories of Casting Time

In red : Examples.

 

5s of Casting Time

AOE instant damage. (Fire ball with a big amount of damage)

 

4s of Casting Time

AoE Buff/Afflictions (Relentness storm, Devotion of the faithful)

Invocations of All classes except Chanter. (Essential phantom)

 

3s of Casting Time

One-target instant damage (Stag's horn)

AoE Overtime damage (Shining beacon, Wall of flames)

Cipher/Chanter AoE effects (Buff/afflictions (Puppet master, at the sound of his voice)

invocations of chanter. (If their bones)

 

2s of Casting Time

Cipher one-target effects (Buff/Afflictions) (Whisper of treason) 

One target buff (self or other) (prayer for the body)

 

1.5s-0.5s of Casting Time

Only-Personnal-buff (Weapons invocations, Sworn ennemy)

 

Notes :

- 6s will be always not possible for me. Because 90 % of the fight are ended in 10 seconds. So, I play once with my dude.

- I don't understand Obsidian with invocations. Invocations are interresting overtime, not at the end of the battle in 9s (memories...). Far less effective than a fireball in 6s.

- Self or others personnal Buff must be done quickly. 5s for prayer of the body. WTF... Even the boost of Max is not enough for me... : p

- Cipher and Chanter must have a preferential rate for their operation. They will either have to wait or do something else to use their power.

seems logical.



#9
theBalthazar

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Theses values are the ones that must be maximum. Can be diminushed for spells with less good effect.

 

For example, I validate the choice of Max for miasma. 4s is the max for AoE buff/afflictions for me (but not minimum...), and miasma is not a direct "killer app" like relentness storm, so 3s is very credible !


Edited by theBalthazar, 18 February 2018 - 02:12 AM.


#10
MaxQuest

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It feels significantly better than the vanilla game so far and melee range casters have a lot more use, so if you like the spellsowrd/gish archetype this mod helps get closer than vanilla deadfire. However I'd knock down short/narrow cone and short-range single target(like ray of fire and divine mark) down to 1.5 sec casts and take a look at the duration of some buffs(namely eldritch aim because it gets beat out by a fighter equivalent starting out), but I undertsand that being out of the scope of the beta mod.

The idea behind BetaSpeedMod was to:
- slightly speed-up casting and recovery categories
- tune-up casting cipher
- increase the speed at which you can conjure summoned weapons
and check if it feels better than in current beta)
so far it's 5 vs 0, that it indeed feels better, with on emphasis on "much" and "significantly". I am happy with that)


While the idea behind BetaBalanceMod is to actually improve:
- consistency
- viability of underused play-styles
But it requires a much bigger set of changes; and also extra ingame testing from my part. So it's still a WIP, and actually quite at the start of it. You have probably noticed that I haven't had the time to touch priests and druids yet; nor rank3+ on wizard.
 

So MaxQuest was right about casting times, and while this table is good there should be better grouping along the lines of that mentioned in this post: https://forums.obsid...-8#entry1966941

I don't think I have abberated too much from that table) (looking at the spells listed in changelog).
As sometimes spell's effect is too weak or too strong for their matching cast/recovery; and I feel that table could be a bit expanded. But I'll re-iterate on it, in order to bring better / more intuitive grouping.
 

Awesome mods, combat feels much better now.
Still even with this setup wizards (evoker) feels weak, can't do much when solo with only 2 first level and 1 second level spell...

Glad to hear it)

Regarding evoker: it looks like he has to heavily rely of Fan of Flames, Rolling Flames and narrow passages in the early game.
Which single-class character had easy-time where evoker couldn't advance?

Edited by MaxQuest, 18 February 2018 - 03:08 AM.

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#11
MaxQuest

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I test that now.
 
It is really good. Far better than the actual beta. There is always some problem like :
 
Wall of flame : 6s/0.5s
 
6s like fire ball, for a damage overtime ? More 3s/0.5s
 
Essential phantom : 6s/0.5s
 
Invocations are good overtime. Not immediately. It is more 4,5s/0.5s
 
Prayer of the body : 4.5s/1.5s

Well, you have picked the spells, I haven't touched yet (see the changelog). I'm not surprised you are not happy with them  :grin: 
I do completely agree that Wall of Flame, Essential Phantom and Prayer of the Body are underpowered when compared with their long casting durations, and the spells that you could cast instead (due to 2 spellusages per rank limit)
 

Here, there is a problem. It is not personnal only, but 4.5s for one target seems to be too high for me atm... 2s. Must be done quick in few situations.

Every spell is a double-edged sword. If you can cast the Necrotic Lance, so can lagufaeth wizards.
Also having a few long-casting spells enables a multi-class wizard that learns only a handful of spells and heavily invests in passives instead.

I think it's ok to have a very few 4.5s single-targeted spells as long as their effect matches such long cast-time. Also we should keep in mind the effect of DEX, +% Action Speed alchemy potions/Frenzy/Swift Strikes, Bloodlust; and the fact that we can have a pure spell-nuker with dumped STR.

Ideally there would be several categories of damaging spells:
- relatively quick - easy and comfortable to use, but not fight-deciding
- slow - with big oompf damage, heavy backlash in case of interrupt; and where you have to build your party around them
 

Notes :
- 6s will be always not possible for me. Because 90 % of the fight are ended in 10 seconds. So, I play once with my dude.
- I don't understand Obsidian with invocations. Invocations are interresting overtime, not at the end of the battle in 9s (memories...). Far less effective than a fireball in 6s.
- Self or others personnal Buff must be done quickly. 5s for prayer of the body. WTF... Even the boost of Max is not enough for me... : p
- Cipher and Chanter must have a preferential rate for their operation. They will either have to wait or do something else to use their power.

> basically if you want to cast a 6s spell, you:
- really want to invest in DEX (being heavy buffed, you can reduce 6s to ~2.5s)
- or use it only once from stealth; and actually invest points in stealth
- have a party of debilitators and concentration-providers that would cover you
- want to decide which race with which affliction resistence to take apriori
but there is also a sense of satisfaction when this spell comes off, as it has the potential to seal your victory

> combat duration is quite tricky. With a good melee party on Normal, combat often ends in 9-15s. While with a random party on PotD it can often take up to 60s. Also we should take into account nuking alpha-strike parties. Imagine a group of 5 stealthy evoker wizards on hardcrack, that open up with 5 empowered fireballs and rest after each encounter.

> agreed of self-buffs. And agreed that prayer of the body needs a speed-up. But speaking of the "boost" - I haven't explicitly changed Prayer of the Body. I had no time to go through each priest spell one by one (except Spiritual Weapons), yet) You can see the powers and spells I have explicitly examined in the changelog)

> agreed on ciphers and chanters. As you have probably mentioned ciphers have -1.5s recovery on majority of their powers compared to vancian spells. Also chanter summoners now have more time to do other stuff.

Edited by MaxQuest, 18 February 2018 - 03:07 AM.

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#12
theBalthazar

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I have do a small calcul tu understand the shift between POE1 and POE2. Here the result :

 

Fireball

 

POE1

Fast speed 81 frames = 2.23 seconds (Cast time + Recovery)

Damages : 25-35

 

POE2 DEADFIRE BETA --> ACTUALLY

6 seconds (Cast time + Recovery)

Damages : 37-48

 

-------------------------

 

CALCULATION of the gap...

 

2.23s = 25-35

 

Should be…

 

6s = 67 - 94 (Actually 37 - 48)

 

So we can say : Either there is a lack of power, or there is too much casting time. Even if we consider a nerf of POE1, the gap is insane actually.

 

If you want my opinion (I will give it anyway: p) perfect balancing of Fire ball : (including a nerf...like Obsidian seems to want)

 

Fire ball

 

Casting time : 5s

Recovery : 1s

 

Damages : 40-56

 

67 and 94 * 0.6 = Nerf of 40 % compared to Pillars 1. Enough like this. More, there is highter risk of interrution, etc.

 

In 5 seconds I can do a lot of damage with melee. Even with retarget there is a risk of "no ennemies in area" and "hurt an ally".

 

So in short, I take damages of MaxQuest, and I stay with 6s CT+R max.


Edited by theBalthazar, 18 February 2018 - 04:39 AM.


#13
IndiraLightfoot

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I simply had to try the MaxQuest's BalancedMod, and I had a blast. It's the first time I felt that Wizards may have a chance.

I made a bizarre party of single class wizards, all nature Godlike and from old Vallia. I call them Dryads, and I had like Dryad Evo, Dryad Enc, Dryad Con, and my main was a Dryad Illusionist, and I had a single class summoning chanter as a support character. The entire party only had sceptres, rods and pistols for weapons.

And finally, they did reasonably well, even if targeting still is a pain in the ***, and enemies move around like the ghost twins in Matrix 2.

 

Pro tip: Turn off the AI (unless you have it dialled in really well).

 

Here are some images of my little green men and women from some gods-forsaken forest in Old Vallia:

A1N9F1.jpg

xcrxLK.jpg

 

Notice how Dryad Evo knocked out my main Unknown Dryad with that second fireball, which certainly hit home much better than my Illusionist one just before it.


Edited by IndiraLightfoot, 18 February 2018 - 05:17 AM.

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#14
dunehunter

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I have do a small calcul tu understand the shift between POE1 and POE2. Here the result :

Fireball

POE1
Fast speed 81 frames = 2.23 seconds (Cast time + Recovery)
Damages : 25-35

POE2 DEADFIRE BETA --> ACTUALLY
6 seconds (Cast time + Recovery)
Damages : 37-48

-------------------------

CALCULATION of the gap...

2.23s = 25-35

Should be…

6s = 67 - 94 (Actually 37 - 48)

So we can say : Either there is a lack of power, or there is too much casting time. Even if we consider a nerf of POE1, the gap is insane actually.

If you want my opinion (I will give it anyway: p) perfect balancing of Fire ball : (including a nerf...like Obsidian seems to want)

Fire ball

Casting time : 5s
Recovery : 1s

Damages : 40-56

67 and 94 * 0.6 = Nerf of 40 % compared to Pillars 1. Enough like this. More, there is highter risk of interrution, etc.

In 5 seconds I can do a lot of damage with melee. Even with retarget there is a risk of "no ennemies in area" and "hurt an ally".

So in short, I take damages of MaxQuest, and I stay with 6s CT+R max.


I think this comparison is not too fair as melee recovery is longer in PoE 2 too. IMO your comparison should be how much slower is spell in DF and how much slower is melee in DF, and compare these two.

In another word, only comparing how much the spells get worse has no point to discuss as you didn’t take melee into account. If melee also get slower and weaker, spell should be tuned in same pace. If spells are nerfed more than melee, then there are problems. And you should also take the change for per rest to per encounter into account but I’m not sure how it impact spells, make them stronger or weaker? I’m not so sure here.

Edited by dunehunter, 18 February 2018 - 05:26 AM.

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#15
theBalthazar

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84 frames = average 1H = 2 seconds

 

1H in POE1 = 2s

1H in POE2 = 3.7s

 

Melee = nerf of +53 % (*1.53)

 

Fireball = nerf of +60 % (*1.6)

 

And here we don’t count dual wielding bonuses. And not more a single weapon accuracy bonus. Only a slow "Weapon + small shield" for exemple.

 

We can admit a difference of 7 % nerf overall of casters. But there is a new thing to understand :

- With a longer cast time, you increase the part of risk. Interruption : Loss of your ressource point, loss of time (If there is an interrution after 4 seconds of casting = it is a crazy loss of time for 10s of battle). It is Awfully risky.

- If there is no ennemies, retarget cannot re-cast further than is reach = loss.

- Bottleneck effect, more damage you do, the longer you do it, less you have targets, greater is the loss.

- Bottleneck effect also applicable on the number of participations during the fight. If your fight during 10 seconds and you cast your spell in 6s. There is a maximum loss. You only attack once.

 

All of this widely balance all of "per rest" story (for me it is a non-story, because technically with a rest = per encounter situation)

 

That's why two handed style must always be in front of DPS. Same for high casting time spells (5s+)

 

MaxQuest applied a *1.15 bonus to the actual fire ball damages. Good number. 7 % + a slighty boost for the risk = ~ 15 % seems legit.

But only if you don't touch CASTING TIME !...

 

So I'm right. It's not just the general slowdown gap. After that, you can decide to stay with my proposition or decrease for exemple the casting time of 15 %. It is a another solution.

 

Fire ball

 

37-48 (like now)

 

4s Casting time (~ -15% with rounding)

1s Recovery

 

In addition, this 15% is important, because I estimate that it is the current gap between spells and melee, in a large majority of cases. (There is always exceptions)


Edited by theBalthazar, 18 February 2018 - 06:27 AM.


#16
dunehunter

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But my question is shall we balance melee/spell in deadfire into the same level of melee/spell in PoE 1? Specially when casters like wizard/priests are already the best classes in 1.
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#17
theBalthazar

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Like I said previously, if your battle has been going on for 10s. You hit at 6s with your fireball. But we cannot count 4 last seconds, spell will not arrive to terms. Loss : 40 % of the second iteration. This can be happened.

 

Players feel (perhaps it is true, perhaps it is false) a lack of efficiency of casters.

 

Players feel globally the bottleneck effect (That why 8s casting time is a crazy idea...). Doable with the titan for example. Generally down in 10-15 seconds.

 

In POE1 for exemple, Fire ball was Fast speed. This change everything. Beyond the numbers. 2.23 seconds cut the new iterations much better. 2.23s x 3 is MUCH MORE effctive than 6s once (Bottleneck Effect + Less risk of interrution etc etc.) And this whatever the damages.

 

So, to answer to your question : with pure numbers, there is a gap of 7% of DPS against POE2 casters. Absolute difference between melee and casters. (Without count Dual wield/single weapon bonus of accuracy...)

 

I say no to give the same power to casters they had in POE1, but there is a happy medium. 15 % is the minimum, and people seem to be violently feeling side effects.

 

But casting time also increase. And there are side effects. (bottleneck effect). Extremely difficult to calcul, but they are here. 15-7 = 8 % of side effect is a very little number. But I stay cautious.

 

this must be counted. Like a bonus. MaxQuest have take ~10 % for these effects but increased recovery/cast time in a same time. So it is a leverage effect.

 

I think we have to be at least 15% of the current value needed (at total). Whether in cast time or damage.

 

FIREBALL

 

Damages : 37-48 (like now)

Casting time : 4s (~ -15% with rounding)

Recovery : 1s

 

Or

 

Damages : 43-55 (~ +15%)

Casting time : 5s
Recovery : 1s

 

Obviously, I prefer the first proposition. I am an hardcore gamer, I can kill the titan in 8s, so sooner the spell is out, the better is the situation.

 

Long casting time annoy casual gamers (interrution after 4s, I don't know the game, and I am even more punished, because I have to redo 5 seconds of casting time again to launch it.) and hardcore gamers (My ennemy already die, my wizard cast only one spell overall... WTF ?) So I prefer the first version ^^...

 

So, I resume my thinking : if in the next beta, spells down again to 1s of casting time (for the 5s/8s category of casting time), we will start to enter in a "logic zone" Before that, casters are not worth a nail.


Edited by theBalthazar, 18 February 2018 - 07:47 AM.


#18
dunehunter

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Yeah u didn’t count dual wielding bonus in deadfire, but u also didn’t count it in either of your PoE1 and deadfire comparison.

And the bottleneck you mentioned is not the problem of spell only. If u wear plate amor and swing two handed weapon, your recovery time is close to 6 second too, and u didn’t mention their bottleneck here.

Thirdly I don’t think using titan here is a good example. As I can one shot it with my assassin build, so does it mean every fight last 1 second? Of course no. Titan fight is a case where boss is too weak and there are very few mobs in encounter. And I believe a normal POTD fight can last longer, maybe around 1min.

Edited by dunehunter, 18 February 2018 - 08:39 AM.


#19
theBalthazar

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- But dude, you ask a comparison between melee and caster for Deadfire. So yes, Dual wieiding is needed. Two elements of THIS game. Not previous game... My base concept was just curiosity to compare the difference between two games. If you include POE2 melee, now it is only a comparison between classes VS classes. So with all theyre tools.

 

- You mix casting time and recovery time. Plate is recovery time, no casting time. Casting time is problematic because if you are interrupt, you lose everything. Ressource and time. Bottleneck effect is also present with two handed obviously but not at the same level. 3.7 is not ~near 6s. It is far less WTF... And heavy armor is not an obligation.

 

PS : All my calculations are on MaxQuest proposition. 3s or recovery is far more logical. And give a necessity to go down a little more the spells (casting time).

 

- In PoE 1, I finish all bosses in PoTD in 15s of less easily, so yes, there is always a bottleneck effect here or here. But more longer is a spell, more chance he has to not kill ennemy. (last strike) That's why fast attack always finish ennemies. And that why you must give a little bonuses for high recovery/high casting speed. If not at equal situation of DPS, I prefer dual wieiding and fast spells. Less waste. Simple to understand.

 

I end here for the calculation today.


Edited by theBalthazar, 18 February 2018 - 09:17 AM.


#20
dunehunter

dunehunter

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Sigh I never mix cast time and recover time. Your fireball time is 6s, two handed weapon cast time + recovery time is 0.7 + 4s, I’m assuming your meleer will wear heavier armor than caster here so your two handee will need almost 6 second to swing + recovery too. I don’t know why u say it’s far less here.

And it’s make more sense to compare fireball to two handed weapon, dual wielding to the missile spell here IMO.

And when I talk about comparisons, I’m saying that your comparison between spells in PoE 1 and deadfire is not accurate because melee recovery and speed calculations formula are also changed. When You say 1h in PoE 1 is 2s and 3.7s in deadfire, u also not take any weapon style into account here. Then u raise weapn style later shrug, I don’t see any point here to be honest.

U know with speed buff and dual wielding, it’s very easy to reach 0 recovery in PoE1 right? But with the new speed formula it’s almost impossible to do so. I’d say this is a nerf to melee u not mentioned.

Edited by dunehunter, 18 February 2018 - 09:43 AM.






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