Ship to ship combat

[Wormerine]

I think they want you to use movement to move in and out preferable (for you) cannon range, and use movement defence bonus to minimize enemy attack movement. Sadly, nothing happens if you starve your crew. I tried.

I was playing with "docking" view. Found unfinished "crew" recruitment panel, and this beauty. Enjoy:

Edited February 2, 2018 by Wormerine

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I'll just repost my comments from SA:

 

lack of weather-gage mechanics: sadness

 

but: use of "jibe" in the boat combat interface: good ****

 

edit: wait are there actual wind mechanics? I'm not sure the text seems a little confusing.

 

Overall I like it but jibin' seems kinda op, blam blam 24/7 double jibe action

 

Yeah, I got stuck in an apparent loop earlier where an enemy ship was constantly sailing "fully towards me" but instead they were sailing away, and we went thirty-odd rounds of a dead stern chase  -- them fleeing, me pursuing, slowly, unable to exit the encounter -- before I alt-f4'd.

 

Is there actually a wind mechanic, or is that pure flavor in the text? If the little "you're facing this way/ they're facing that way" icon had an indicator for which direction the wind was coming from and blowing in, that would be helpful. I'm not really clear on if turning port/starboard is helping me catch the wind, or just bringing different guns to bear.

 

edit: I'd also like to be able to turn 45 degrees not just 90

 

2nd edit:

 

As long as a "flee combat" option was always available, I honestly think adding more "real world wind" style mechanics to this minigame would make it a lot more fun and interesting. The bones are there, just add a wind speed and direction indicator circle swinging around the main circle of the ship, and allow ships to be at 45 degree angles from one another so you can approach and tack, and it's all there. I realize I might be an edge case on wanting this kind of thing but I think there's potential here for a sail battle minigame where wind mechanics add to the game for everyone, not just weirdos like me who have read too much Patrick O'Brian.

 

The main problem I had with it was that the rules of the game were a little hard to figure out -- the text kept referring to "wind" but I couldn't figure out if there was an actual wind element going on or if that was pure flavor. I'd have a better feel for it if I could buy different kinds of cannon at the shop. I non-ironically think that adding actual wind mechanics to the minigame would both improve clarity and make it a better minigame.

[lolo]

full sail ahead >hold>full sail ahead>hold> ..................30m

 

1.   Ramming Speed

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by lolo

[Buks]

There should be an option “pretend to be friendly” - and when the distance is 50m an option to “raise the Black flag” (or something) ...

[Wormerine]

full sail ahead >hold>full sail ahead>hold .................. 0m

Do half sail - you will be able to move 2x 60m per turn. I don't think there is a difference between fullsail and hafl sail right now, making fs simply worse. I remember there is a popup which said my deckcrew isn't experienced enough to manage fullsail. They leveled up after defeating 3rd ship, so I can't test if it would work now.

[JFutral]

I just want a better representation of my ship location to the enemy ship location. I had no idea where I was in relation to the enemy. Gave me no assistance in assessing direction to turn to get away or engage, either away or toward.

 

Joe

[Wormerine]

I just want a better representation of my ship location to the enemy ship location. I had no idea where I was in relation to the enemy. Gave me no assistance in assessing direction to turn to get away or engage, either away or toward.

 

Joe

I don't think there is a way to "sail around" an enemy (change his position in relation to yours). The only thing you control right now is how close you are to the enemy (represented by [<amount>m] on "radar" on the bottom of the screen, and your position in relation to enemy (facing him with stern, bow, port side or starboard side). You can change your distance between you and enemy by facing him with stern/bow and making a full/half sail move.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Oh, and while I'm adding general recommendations:

 

As per this thread:

 

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95939-chainshot-depicted-inaccurately/

 

Chain shot wasn't done with double barrelled cannons; it was just loaded into a single cannon.

 

Also, each tier of cannon is a straight upgrade from the one below it -- hog nose, then thunderer, then imperial long guns.

 

What I'd suggest instead,  for increased realism and increased gameplay depth both, is mortars (short range, high damage, low accuracy), standard, then long range (low damage, high range, high accuracy).

 

And then three different types of ammo: standard ball, chain shot (for sails/rigging), canister shot (for damaging crew).

Edited February 4, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Wormerine]

Oh, did you manage to find different cannons, or did you just investigate enemies? 

That's disappointed to hear that they are straight upgrades. I kinda assumed they will provide different utilities. Longer range/longer reload, short range/more damage etc. 
3 types of ammo are kinda a staple of ship2ship combat. I would be happy for it to come back.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Oh, did you manage to find different cannons, or did you just investigate enemies? 

 

That's disappointed to hear that they are straight upgrades. I kinda assumed they will provide different utilities. Longer range/longer reload, short range/more damage etc. 

3 types of ammo are kinda a staple of ship2ship combat. I would be happy for it to come back.

 

You can console command the cannons in your inventory with giveitem shp_[tab] . I'm not sure if there's a way to actually put them on your ship though. You can swap into one of the other ships via SetActiveShip [tab], but they're all demonstrably worse than the BB ship.

 

The optimal range does change with each cannon type, but the damage goes up with range, so imperial long guns (the best) are a straight range and damage upgrade over thunderers (medium range and damage) which are better than dyrwoodan hog noses (what everyone has, worst range and damage).

 

The chain shot cannons are sortof off to the side, I forget what their stats are because I got distracted by the inaccuracy.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Wormerine]

ah! Thank you sir. For reference here are all available cannons:

Hull damaging:

  

 

Sail damaging:
 

You can equip spawned cannons when docked in Tikiwara (you can only swap ship items when docked in the port):

 

Didn't test them in actual combat. Hull canons are indeed simple passive upgrades. Chainshot might be more of a sidegrade, but with short range, and currently no functionality to fullsail, it is rather useless. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Wormerine

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

ahh, you have to do it in the "docked" screen? I kept trying while in town standing on the dock. Nice catch!

[Wormerine]

ahh, you have to do it in the "docked" screen? I kept trying while in town standing on the dock. Nice catch!

I did it while in town (as if physically with my party in town) with "ship management view" (H). It worked without any problems.

 

I am thinking - straight more powerful version of a gun, could be balanced by requiring two crew to operate. I am still kinda bothered that one crew member operates cannons on BOTH SIDES of the ship. Skilled chaps - running from one side of a ship to another, aiming, firing, reloading two cannons while ship constatly does wild 180Degree turns.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Wormerine

[rothamon81]

Really liking it, and very surprised that ship combat is that detailed. I guess there will be some unique encounters as unique equipment/decisions too.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 I am still kinda bothered that one crew member operates cannons on BOTH SIDES of the ship. Skilled chaps - running from one side of a ship to another, aiming, firing, reloading two cannons while ship constatly does wild 180Degree turns.

 

 

 

That's actually believable, well, accepting the fiction that one dude can be manning a cannon at all. Historically, a skilled ship's crew could get down to firing the cannons about once every three minutes minimum, but there are a lot of steps in that process -- repositioning the cannon after the recoil, loading, firing, etc. -- and an extremely skilled crew could "fight both sides" running back and forth without much loss of speed -- i.e., the guy who's job it is to reposition the cannon, as soon it's in place, he runs over and repositions the other side's gun while the first gun is being fired by the firing guy, etc.

 

There are a few obvious fictions; chain shot doesn't decapitate your crewmen, only one guy per cannon, etc. -- but the overall idea of fighting both sides is historically reasonable, at least for a skilled crew.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[mrmonocle]

super lame combat, limit to 5 rounds max.

[Silvaren]

I was confused during my first combat scenario and now it seems clear enough. Except the wind which seems totally random. I know this isn't Empire at War but targeting specific part of the ship seems cool and I would like to see it in the game - while probably not so realistic at this stage of technological advance. Maybe different types of ship's upgrades will make sea combat better. Now it feels too long because player is doing the same things over and over again. Maybe few types of different AI behavior will make encounters more interesting. I never had a chance to board enemies' vessels. Resource management probably need some clarification. It's obvious that crew need water and food and better stuff make them happy, but how morale affects the crew? And ship's repairs is a little confusing at first.

 

Is resource management supposed to be gold sink?

Edited February 4, 2018 by Silvaren

[Wormerine]

Is resource management supposed to be gold sink?

I think so. Probably also a way to indirectly direct your exploration (can’t venture to far, need to find ports for connection etc.)

 

It has been confirmed that there is no wind. One of the players gets “advantage” every round and he starts the round and has movement bonus (+20m). What triggers this advantage (captain rank?) - have no idea.

[anfoglia]

I played through the beta and all ship battles a second time. I do think naval combat could use an additional tactical dimension--whether that's wind or something else. 

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I played through the beta and all ship battles a second time. I do think naval combat could use an additional tactical dimension--whether that's wind or something else. 

 

 

The more I think about it, what I'd suggest is:

 

1) a rotating "wind direction" indicator spinning around the central two ships indicator. This could move a bit every turn. If the wind is directly against you, you can't approach directly; otherwise, the more it's blowing from you to them, the faster you move towards them / harder it is for them to approach you.

 

2) Since you can move once and turn twice, have the first turn be a "tack port / tack starboard" every round that moves you forward half-distance and half-rotates you port/starboard (i.e., 45 degrees); if you pick "turn port/starboard" again you do a full 90 degree turn. Note that tack, turn, fire would then take a full round. Note also that you would be able to tack towards a ship directly upwind of you. 

 

3) Make reloading the cannon take two rounds but improve to one round with a highly skilled cannon crew.

 

4) Make the cannon short range/ high damage, standard range/standard damage, high range/low damage for more strategic choice in ship gear. 

 

5) Ditch the chain shot cannon (it wouldn't work!) and replace with three ammo types: standard ball (damages everything), chain (damages sails extra, normal crew damage, weak vs hull), and canister (high damage to people, normal damage to sails, weak vs hull). Have it take a standard reloading action to switch ammo types in a set of cannon. Ideally, let you load different ammo into different cannon (i.e., port side chain, starboard ball) but that might get wonky with the interface.

 

6) add permanent start-of-round options to "close and board" and "fleeeeeee" with some kind of damage penalty

 

7) Have jibing requiring some sort of crew skill check and if you fail you just sit there dead in the water with no movement at all. 

 

edit:

 

8} increase hull health and repair rate or decrease cannon damage generally, it's a bit easy to get sunk. Historically ships were almost never shot so full of holes they sunk -- they always surrendered first. A morale element maybe instead?

 

9) lower overall maintenance cost, it really adds up if you aren't just console-generating cash.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Vladmorik]

I have to say, I'm very dissapointed in the current ship system. It takes forever, and it is absolutely not why I want to play this game, at all. It also takes a very large amount of gold. The daily cost is fine, it's at a good level, but the cost of all the supplies you need?

Surgeon supplies.
Repair supplies.
Ammo.
Food.
Water.
Raw gold for payment.

Edit: Not to mention balancing morale, so unless you want to feel like a cheap miser of a captain and buy nothing but rice and water..

Imagine how much this stacks up over the entire span of the game, not *just* the beta. Look at how long a full playthrough of the first game took.

And considering we're just starting with this crew, the number of supplies needed is just going to go up unless we actively try to avoid the ship part of the game as much as we can, won't it? Wouldn't that entirely defeat the point of the system?

How are we supposed to feel comfortable exploring the game like this? We're being punished for taking time to do anything with the ramping cost of our crew breathing down our neck the entire game. It feels more like babysitting my bank account than exploring the world with glorious abandon.

And as far as combat, it's an abomination. Not that it's complicated; no it's pretty simple, but I spent 10 minutes in a fight with a random ship I saw, winning start to finish, and suddenly they just destroy my entire ship in one turn out of the blue. A system where that is possible is going to pretty much guarantee I'm going to avoid ship combat as much as possible. (I was at 20 hull and suddenly, all in one turn, I got hit for 7, 7, and 7, all hull, and it instantly ended the game.)

Edited February 5, 2018 by Vladmorik

[theBalthazar]

Ideally, this mini-game must be as attractive as Gwent (Witcher 3).

 

Atm, he is not.

 

Sorry Obsidian, but I must tell the true, even if hurts.

 

I will have seen a strategic or even tactical aspect.

 

A checkerboard would have been more conducive than sentences. (Fire emblem style)

 

set of positions, set of resources. Something more worked!

 

Each crew with stat. Add to a general pool ? Aarik the Captain : Defense +3. Josh the pirate : Speed +4. Special effects on each card (or characters here) Target specific area of foes ships etc. I don't know but a great system ! Here it is like the knife throwing of WM2 

 

Gwent is the perfect exemple of perfect success of minigame. the cards are picked up in the main game, it is interesting and tactical. Not too long, not too short. And each phase is pure strategy. Here... it is... not the case... It is boring.

 

Dice poker (witcher 1 and 2) was bad (too random).

 

Pazaak was great (even if a little too random).

Edited February 5, 2018 by theBalthazar

[daven]

Is this going the way of the Stronghold?

[Sedrefilos]

Unless they design a totally differnt game, I don't see how this can be super exciting in a scripted interaction way. Just to be clear, though: I'm with Obsidian in this; I don't expect/demand of them to create a seperate complicated minigame to please Pirates! fans. The combat seems a bit boring and dragging as I saw it from let's plays but if it's not that frequent to occur it could be a nice break from running around, fighting and talking.

[Wormerine]

And considering we're just starting with this crew, the number of supplies needed is just going to go up unless we actively try to avoid the ship part of the game as much as we can, won't it?

I don’t think that’s true. I don’t see how you could get higher maintence cost than in the beta - the ship you get is fully upgraded with full crew. I imagine you will start with only few sailors, which should lower cost significantly. While I don’t mind the money pressure, there will be a need to passively or easily generate income. Maybe “rent” unused ships? Easy to do raids, on your way to destination?