The Political Quinceañera Thread

[Guard Dog]

It happens but it's considered a s--t detail most guys try to get out of. For all of the aforementioned reasons.

[smjjames]

 

 

 

I think an important question is to determine what “polish death camps” means. I might as well argue it refers to any polish death camp, not just the ones which the Nazis build. And honestly, that doesn’t seem like too far of a cry. Laws can be changed easily.

 

And Poland did build some actual death camps. Tuchola (?) during the Polish-Soviet war comes to mind. I believe a rather large number of Soviet soldiers died there, something around the 16.000. Furthermore, the polish did their fair share of backing the white terror with its anti-Jewish character earlier in the same century. That happened mostly in Russia and the Ukraine; but the point is, that this law can easily be modified to disable citizens from discussing events such as these.

Did you equaled an epidemic in prison with Nazi death camps? You did, didn't you?

Is that something you picked in school or read some low quality website?

no, I pointed out the issues with making “polish death camp” a legal term. I don’t seem to deny, dismiss or relativise the Holocaust. But we are in a discussion about a law. And if we are doing that, I think it is perfectly reasonable to consider just how much history can or could be denied when forbidding the term “polish death camp”. Essentially, I was talking about terminology. Granted though, I should’ve made that clearer. I’m sorry if I confused anyone.

 

Well the term isn't specifically mentioned in the law. It's just an example used by the media and legislators. The law is penalizing false statements that Poland was collaborating with Nazi Germany and was involved in Holocaust. 

 

 

There were certainly people who did collaborate or cooperate willingly, but I suppose the law is aimed at statements saying that the government at the time was?

[Agiel]

 

If you want to do something to "honor" the military try doing something that will not make their already hi stress job more stressful. Giving everyone a day off would be the way I'd go. Appropriate money for each unit to have a party or something.

 

Or spend the ~$50 million a parade might cost on PTSD treatment and veteran care. If he wanted to see hardware on display he could just go on down to MCAS Miramar to see the air show or to San Francisco for Fleet Week.

 

Something tells me he'd be at least a little disappointed if this thing does come to pass that the US doesn't employ TEL vehicles with phallic-looking missiles mounted on them like Russia does anymore:

 

 

Hey, might explain that utterly inane Nuclear Posture Review they put out recently.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Agiel

[Malcador]

Nah, France was the last thing he saw, so he'll want it to be better than the Bastille Day parade.

[smjjames]

'better than the bastille day parade' would be NK and former Soviet Russia tier displays of 'military might'.

[Malcador]

'better than the bastille day parade' would be NK and former Soviet Russia tier displays of 'military might'.

 

Maybe, but as he has France on the brain, just doubting he'll be looking at Russian parades with ICBM launchers.  I guess all Mattis et al. have to do is maybe wait a month or two before the plan's forgotten about.

[Gfted1]

I wish we would have developed the LGM-118 Peacekeeper Rail Garrison. Its a damn shame we kept the Minuteman III and deactivated these.

[Zoraptor]

 

'better than the bastille day parade' would be NK and former Soviet Russia tier displays of 'military might'.

 

Maybe, but as he has France on the brain, just doubting he'll be looking at Russian parades with ICBM launchers.  I guess all Mattis et al. have to do is maybe wait a month or two before the plan's forgotten about.

 

 

Grand Military Parades seems like exactly the sort of meaningless pantomimery Trump wouldn't forget about to me. It's a great way to shout your own importance from the rooftops and would appeal to the typical Trump voter who wants the US to shout its importance from rooftops.

 

And of course you can accuse detractors of being against the troops and anyone who doesn't clap of being traitors as well, another added bonus.

[Valsuelm]

 

 

'better than the bastille day parade' would be NK and former Soviet Russia tier displays of 'military might'.

 

Maybe, but as he has France on the brain, just doubting he'll be looking at Russian parades with ICBM launchers.  I guess all Mattis et al. have to do is maybe wait a month or two before the plan's forgotten about.

 

 

Grand Military Parades seems like exactly the sort of meaningless pantomimery Trump wouldn't forget about to me. It's a great way to shout your own importance from the rooftops and would appeal to the typical Trump voter who wants the US to shout its importance from rooftops.

 

And of course you can accuse detractors of being against the troops and anyone who doesn't clap of being traitors as well, another added bonus.

 

The average U.S. voter of pretty much any candidate, couldn't care less about parades, nor are they interested in shouting the importance of the U.S. to the world.

 

On top of that, the latter is especially true of a great many Trump voters, who voted for him largely based on his put the people of the U.S.A first rhetoric. Not his, 'USA is #1 in the world!' rhetoric.

[injurai]

Trump just wants to play in a sand box.

[Guard Dog]

Because ignorance and tribalism are funny:

 

https://youtu.be/W7C6kH-LbpI

[pmp10]

 

 

 

 

 

I think an important question is to determine what “polish death camps” means. I might as well argue it refers to any polish death camp, not just the ones which the Nazis build. And honestly, that doesn’t seem like too far of a cry. Laws can be changed easily.

 

And Poland did build some actual death camps. Tuchola (?) during the Polish-Soviet war comes to mind. I believe a rather large number of Soviet soldiers died there, something around the 16.000. Furthermore, the polish did their fair share of backing the white terror with its anti-Jewish character earlier in the same century. That happened mostly in Russia and the Ukraine; but the point is, that this law can easily be modified to disable citizens from discussing events such as these.

Did you equaled an epidemic in prison with Nazi death camps? You did, didn't you?

Is that something you picked in school or read some low quality website?

 

no, I pointed out the issues with making “polish death camp” a legal term. I don’t seem to deny, dismiss or relativise the Holocaust. But we are in a discussion about a law. And if we are doing that, I think it is perfectly reasonable to consider just how much history can or could be denied when forbidding the term “polish death camp”. Essentially, I was talking about terminology. Granted though, I should’ve made that clearer. I’m sorry if I confused anyone.

 

Well the term isn't specifically mentioned in the law. It's just an example used by the media and legislators. The law is penalizing false statements that Poland was collaborating with Nazi Germany and was involved in Holocaust.

 

There were certainly people who did collaborate or cooperate willingly, but I suppose the law is aimed at statements saying that the government at the time was?

 

That's right.

Of course there were such people. And they were trialed by the Polish undergroud. We were maybe the only country to do that in WWII.

 

Depending on your definition of collaboration, 'such people' could number in the millions.

Poland swept plenty of ugly history under the rug and the last thing we need is to start rewriting it.

[ShadySands]

I still fail to see how this law improves the international Polish image or prevents anyone other than Poles (especially Israel, as mentioned by Sharp_One, who I thought had good relations with Poland) from saying these things.

 

Am I missing something here?

[Gfted1]

Was it supposed to have some international impact? Germans cant even think the word "nazi" without going to jail but nobody outside of Germany cares. 

[ShadySands]

Sharp_one said it prevents Israel from blaming Poland for the Holocaust a couple of pages ago. I'll see if I can find the exact quote. Found it
 

 

 

 

L0L LOGIC. Does this to 'protect' international reputation... yet the act of doing this hurts said rep. BRILLIANT.

I like that excuse, let's protect our international reputation by limiting what our own citizens can say

 

 
not that I agree with any censorship, but most EU states have some hate speech laws, not sure how this one is different

 

 
It prevent's Israel from blaming Poland for Holocaust.
They even started to exonerate AH:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/netanyahu-absolves-hitler-of-guilt-1.5411578

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by ShadySands

[Chilloutman]

jesus I got goose bumps, its like I heard something like that before, and from German socialist as well...

 

[injurai]

Let me just sign up for a few German language classes.

[Chilloutman]

 

Depending on your definition of collaboration, 'such people' could number in the millions.

Poland swept plenty of ugly history under the rug and the last thing we need is to start rewriting it.

Yes, Poland was responsible for WWII. We invited the peaceful corps of Nazi Germany on false pretenses, we locked them in the death camps and dressed in their uniforms we waged war wide and far.

We made up the attack, faked our government in exile, fabricated our involvement in Allies armies and fictionalized polish underground struggle.

You got us skipper, there is no more place under the rug. 

I take it that a phrase "plenty of ugly history" is all you can muster and it would be pointless to ask for specifics which you have none.

 

I still fail to see how this law improves the international Polish image or prevents anyone other than Poles (especially Israel, as mentioned by Sharp_One, who I thought had good relations with Poland) from saying these things.

 

Am I missing something here?

The law would obligate Institute of National Remembrance to track and take legal actions against people/organizations/countries that violate said laws using International institutions and treaties. It wouldn't be 100% enforceable of course, but it's something.

 

 

to be fair you tried to attack us, didn't worked well for you guys huh?

[Pidesco]

[Bartimaeus]

@Pidesco: Coincidentally, the idea for Fox News was originally coined in 1970 by Roger Ailes during the Nixon presidency when he was "media consultant" to the president. Discovered by Gawker (yuck) in old memos in the Nixon Presidential Library: https://web.archive.org/web/20111016200523/http://gawker.com/5814150

 

 

Originally envisioned as sort of state-run, pro-GOP news. Roger Ailes would eventually go on to help create Fox News, becoming its first CEO (starting the day it officially launched) until his resignation in 2016 as a result of a sexual harassment scandal.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Bartimaeus

[pmp10]

I take it that a phrase "plenty of ugly history" is all you can muster and it would be pointless to ask for specifics which you have none.

From the before mentioned invasion of Vilnius and Czech lands to the polonization policies in the east.

And that's before we even get to the topic of internment camps, pacifications and eventual reprisals during the war.

Or of the pervasive antisemitism that's still going strong and is used as an excuse to justify that 'Polish death camps' nonsense.

 

I could go on but the point is that Poland needs an honest look at it's history not western-style denial and shouting-down of anyone who disagrees.

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

Depending on your definition of collaboration, 'such people' could number in the millions.

Poland swept plenty of ugly history under the rug and the last thing we need is to start rewriting it.

Yes, Poland was responsible for WWII. We invited the peaceful corps of Nazi Germany on false pretenses, we locked them in the death camps and dressed in their uniforms we waged war wide and far.

We made up the attack, faked our government in exile, fabricated our involvement in Allies armies and fictionalized polish underground struggle.

You got us skipper, there is no more place under the rug. 

I take it that a phrase "plenty of ugly history" is all you can muster and it would be pointless to ask for specifics which you have none.

 

I still fail to see how this law improves the international Polish image or prevents anyone other than Poles (especially Israel, as mentioned by Sharp_One, who I thought had good relations with Poland) from saying these things.

 

Am I missing something here?

The law would obligate Institute of National Remembrance to track and take legal actions against people/organizations/countries that violate said laws using International institutions and treaties. It wouldn't be 100% enforceable of course, but it's something.

 

 

to be fair you tried to attack us, didn't worked well for you guys huh?

 

That's not true we never did nothing wrong. You are lying and we will sue you 

 

 

[redneckdevil]

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/08/how-the-media-buried-two-huge-fbi-stories-yesterday/

 

Dunno if "decent" source of news

[Bartimaeus]

The first point about the dossier has probably been debunked already, based on the opinions of various reporters who looked at the specific wording of the Nunes memo. The memo said information that was in the dossier was used, but not the dossier itself. A weasely way of saying that information from another source that also happened to be in the dossier was used. I'm pretty that's one of the clarifications that we'd see in the release of the Democrat memo.

 

For the second point, Obama had definitely been briefed on the Russian investigation - he had begged Mitch McConnell (Senate Majority Leader) to go public with him on it either before the primaries or as they were ongoing (I don't remember which), to try to nip it in the bud, but McConnell refused. Also, it's really weird that Strzok keeps getting painted as this super anti-Trump guy...when he was the one that convinced Comey to re-open the Clinton case, leading to that infamous Comey press meeting days before the election announcing exactly that. Strzok did not appear to like either candidates, which probably just means he had a good head on his shoulders. Except for that whole cheating on his wife with another member of the FBI while apparently writing some really stupid texts - that stuff seems rather contradictory to that point.

 

(P.S. I don't think the Federalist is considered a very good source of news. It's not utterly terrible along the lines of breitbart, though.)

Edited February 9, 2018 by Bartimaeus

[Zoraptor]

 

I take it that a phrase "plenty of ugly history" is all you can muster and it would be pointless to ask for specifics which you have none.

From the before mentioned invasion of Vilnius and Czech lands to the polonization policies in the east.

And that's before we even get to the topic of internment camps, pacifications and eventual reprisals during the war.

Or of the pervasive antisemitism that's still going strong and is used as an excuse to justify that 'Polish death camps' nonsense.

 

I could go on but the point is that Poland needs an honest look at it's history not western-style denial and shouting-down of anyone who disagrees.

 

 

Yeah they did most of that, but to iterate, there really wasn't pervasive anti semitism in Poland, since people are likely to reflexively disagree with Sharpie. Nationalism, sure, and at times that was as unpleasant in Poland as in most places hence inter war Poland's behaviour was not always the model of restraint, shall we say. But, most of the stories about Polish anti semitism are Israeli Creation Myth propaganda- there literally being no safe place for the Jews except Israel. There may well be some anti Israel resentment now, but that's neither anti semitism nor unjustified given that Israel is effectively slandering them for their own political purposes.

 

If you compare Polish anti semitism to those in similar positions the vast majority of persecution and murder of Polish Jews was direct by German Nazis with no help from Poles in general and very little help from them at all. In the Balts and Ukraine there was an immediate, organised native program to murder and betray Jews (and others, of course). There was even direct collaboration in 'enlightened' occupied western countries; indeed, they all did things like contribute SS units etc many of whom were the most fanatical fighters in the entire war, and given that that includes Japan it's really saying something.