threat mechanics

[dixon_sider]

Does anyone miss the taunting skills in tyranny while playing this beta? I really liked the aggro skills, and i considered the threat generation from tyranny a huge improvement from the original pillars. I hope some get added before the game gets released.

[MaxQuest]

Hmm not really. Having no threat, makes hard-cc and positioning much more important. Plus it makes enemy AI more nasty/challenging and sometimes even perceived as more sophisticated.

[Boeroer]

Please no taunting and stuff like that. It's so MMORPGish. A lot of non-kith foes in PoE should be immune to insulting, taunting and threatening anyways.

 

And Tyranny's combat system with cooldowns and stuff was horrible in my opinion.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Boeroer

[daven]

Threat in classic WoW is good, but that's because if you were a tank that's your main objective and you're only controlling one guy. I think if you're controlling 5 characters it will require a lot of effort or just be way too much hassle.

 

But then again I do kinda wish they had it in the first game, decking out my guy to be a armoured badass and everyone runs straight past him to slap my mage. ANNOYING!

[Boeroer]

But understandable.

[Ninjamestari]

Hmm not really. Having no threat, makes hard-cc and positioning much more important. Plus it makes enemy AI more nasty/challenging and sometimes even perceived as more sophisticated.

 

This. Threat is just a mechanic that allows you to game AI behavior, which is kinda stupid. I've never liked threat as a function of damage dealt/healed. The less MMO-bull**** there is in an RPG, the better.

[Gfted1]

But then again I do kinda wish they had it in the first game, decking out my guy to be a armoured badass and everyone runs straight past him to slap my mage. ANNOYING!

 

 

But understandable.

Imo, unless mooks have some ability to discern "danger lever" at a glance, why would they run past the toon swinging a sword at their head for the toon in the process of casting a spell (and they wouldn't know what spell is being cast anyway)?

 

To me, WoW type agro makes sense: Tank agro mooks...mooks stay on tank unless an outside threat exceeds the tank threat...such as too much dps or healing. Why do mooks automatically assume backlines are the threat before a single action is taken?

[MountainTiger]

Why waste time with the guy in full plate who can only stick you with a sword when there are guys wearing robes and doing more dangerous things in the back?

 

Some variety in AI behavior could be interesting (ideally, kith should be smarter about picking targets than bears), but smart enemies should be able to evaluate offensive and defensive abilities and prioritize bringing down glass cannons. The first game did pretty well at forcing you to use positioning and CC to control fights, more of that please.

[Gfted1]

But that assumes meta-knowledge.

 

Or can the player also tell at a glance exactly what spell is being cast by the enemies?

[daven]

Engagement should be more punishing. If your tank has gone toe to toe with someone and then the other guy decides he wants to attempt to run off and attack someone else. He should get completely clobbered onto his arse.

[omgFIREBALLS]

It's nice and all to talk about the perceived intelligence of mobs in the absence of threat mechanics, but watching a dozen mobs just squeeze into each other by a choke point with only the front two ones getting to melee while they're all getting hammered by your ranged... and the AI not retreating to a more favorable position, I think it's actually worse. You generally gotta have creature collision or threat to give players means of controlling enemies, but neither is without aesthetic drawbacks.

 

Plus, I think there is some degree of threat in PoE 1, in that mobs seem to care about engagement (even if your tanks have very un-scary disengagement attacks) and perhaps distance to a more ideal target.

[MountainTiger]

But that assumes meta-knowledge.

 

Or can the player also tell at a glance exactly what spell is being cast by the enemies?

 

Enemies show an indicator of their current action, including what spell they're casting when casting, over their heads. Players also get access to the enemy's defenses, immunities, and resistances; enemies should know this as well.

 

Beyond the detailed information available, enemy appearances give a lot of information about their capabilities (big enemies are probably strong in melee with high fortitude and low reflex, kith with full plate and shields are probably tough but not very dangerous offensively, casters in robes are probably squishy but dangerous offensively, etc). The more of this the AI can duplicate the better.

[Gfted1]

Enemies show an indicator of their current action, including what spell they're casting when casting, over their heads.

Huh, well Ill be a monkeys uncle.

 

So like a little Fireball symbol appears over an enemy caster when they are about to cast "Fireball"? Kooky.

[Ninjamestari]

To me, WoW type agro makes sense: Tank agro mooks...mooks stay on tank unless an outside threat exceeds the tank threat...such as too much dps or healing. Why do mooks automatically assume backlines are the threat before a single action is taken?

 

One would think that an experienced raider/mercenary would be aware of the amount of destruction a spellcaster can bring to the battle. Double that for assassins that have been hired specifically to track down and kill your party by the Big Bad.

[ShadySands]

 

Enemies show an indicator of their current action, including what spell they're casting when casting, over their heads.

 

Huh, well Ill be a monkeys uncle.

 

So like a little Fireball symbol appears over an enemy caster when they are about to cast "Fireball"? Kooky.

 

 

...and MMO-like

 

but I like it

Edited January 17, 2018 by ShadySands

[Gfted1]

One would think that an experienced raider/mercenary would be aware of the amount of destruction a spellcaster can bring to the battle. Double that for assassins that have been hired specifically to track down and kill your party by the Big Bad™.

Do all people know all things about all things in the lands of Eora? It is also my understanding that casters are no more powerful (and in the current state completely underpowered) than any other class. Is this untrue? Why are they singled out as "glass canons"?

 

 

...and MMO-like

 

but I like it

I don't recall the spell symbols appearing overhead in WoW but I will admit to not having played in years. Is that the new thing nowadays? Little lightning bolt, fireball, whatever, above the heads of all casters? Does that extend to melee as well? Maybe a "broken shield" icon above a warrior that about to cut you up with a "Cleave"?

[ShadySands]

I dunno about WoW  but in Star Wars there is. It tells you what they are casting and has a bar so you can see the progress.

 

LOTRO has a similar mechanic too except it just shows that they are casting but not exactly what they are casting. It's color coded too so green indicates a heal and red a damaging ability.

 

 

 

PS in Shadowrun there is a saying about always geeking (killling) the mage first. I'd guess there may be something similar in the Pillars universe.

Edited January 17, 2018 by ShadySands

[injurai]

Engagement should be more punishing. If your tank has gone toe to toe with someone and then the other guy decides he wants to attempt to run off and attack someone else. He should get completely clobbered onto his arse.

 

This is what I want more of. I want the engagement system to be more robust, more punishing. It's nice to have options like, the occasional safety hatch. I think escape and chase checks could be implemented to additional hold onto opponents who are particularly agile and cunning. But if you throw two rogues at a tank, one of them surely will be able to dash away again. Maybe the pure rogue get's away and the fighter/rogue "swaps" engagement with the near dying paladin (in the Indiana Jones esque sand back trick.)

 

The summarize. Engagement. Engagement. And everything to expand and refine and improve those systems. Options, options and more.

 

I've said it before. Engagement and tactical positioning control systems are the two killer features that I want to see expanded. I don't think I'd really be seeing them in Deadfire, but maybe down the road. Expansion maybe?

[Gfted1]

Hmm, so since everything swarms the casters perhaps this can be turned into a benefit. What if you equip a caster with whatever speed increasing items are in the game, have that character begin to cast which will trigger the bumrush, and then use that character to kite everything around the room Benny Hill style while the rest of your party casually picks off the enemy?

[injurai]

Good ol' Battle of Endor tactics.

[MountainTiger]

In the first game, just disabling or killing whatever was after your squishies was usually stronger than trying to kite them, especially since the really deadly enemies (phantoms and the like) could disable their target. Obviously balance could change but I expect the same here.

[Gfted1]

What class do mooks focus on when there isn't a caster in the party? Is any spell, big or small, damage or healing, an instantaneous trigger to rush the back line with total disregard for AoO?

[MountainTiger]

In PoE1, my understanding is that targeting is primarily based on defenses, not class. So casters (especially wizards) naturally get picked on because they have bad base deflection, are usually geared for offense rather than defense, and frequently dump defensive stats, but the same is true of rogues and barbarians. I'm not sure how much a character's actions once the fight begins matter; it would make sense to do some amount of reprioritizing, though there is a balance needed here since focusing attacks is valuable in itself and too much switching could reduce the threat by spreading damage around too much.

[SonicMage117]

Tbh, I love everything about Tyranny's combat.... would love to see another game with its combat but in a different world, an open world isometric cRPG would be great! The only thing I didn't really like about Tyranny was the word map and the travel system. It was more or less small hubs than a grand world and the map interjecting always seemed to break the pace of gameplay.

[Wormerine]

I always disliked “taunt” mechanics. It seems like one of those skills which do what players should do, replacing placement and zoning with an ability. Fighters “pull” mechanic seems to have similar purpose, while more satisfying, precise and limited.