SJW Integration in Deadfire

[DCParry]

This entire thread is set up to establish particular view points as equivalent by calling out "SJW", a great strawman. As of there is some "SJW" rubric that was written by someone who wasn't feeling offended by women getting their vaginas all over their games/films/insert whatever.  For ****'s sake, I wish there was a SJW conspiracy so we could have actual, non incrementally grinding progress forward. It has been a while since I had a warning, so the moderators should be embarrassed that they allow this nonsense to go forward. Hiding behind the facade of civil discourse does not mitigate the problematic basis of claiming that anything is SJW. 

 

And I leave this here (this is my observational opinion, based on my experience with their games as well their other media presence), the vast majority of Obsidian, the people who make this game, would be categorized as having SJW opinions.

 

But, it is really about ethics in gaming journalism, right?

[SonicMage117]

Hmmm... Sad that some people see the term SJW as a negative. I see it as being a choice and a lifestyle, although I, myself, am not an SJW so I guess anyone could technically come in here say "Exactly, that's why you're not offended by the term, because you aren't one." but that is automatically debunked by the reality that SJW's proudly and boldly proclaim that they are SJW's. And if you don't think that serious, I strongly advise you to go on YouTube and/other forums and you will be enlightened and I think that goes the same to anyone who doubts.

 

There's nothing to be ashamed of here. This thread isn't targeting an audience by using the word SJW but rather content writen by the devs, and everyone has remain fairly respectful, if anything the mods should pat themselves on the back for the simple case of members being so initially involved without throwing jabs or stereotyping at either opposite ends. There is nothing to be ashamed here.

 

Who am I to argue if someone is an SJW or not? It certainly isn't my place to tell other adults what to do or other people's children how to behave. I just think it would be an interesting way to see how pr what everyone feels on how this particular game will utilize such topical values. That's all, no nonesense, just the reality of picking people's brains while I cook me beefy weiner atop me George Foreman

[injurai]

This entire thread is set up to establish particular view points as equivalent by calling out "SJW", a great strawman. As of there is some "SJW" rubric that was written by someone who wasn't feeling offended by women getting their vaginas all over their games/films/insert whatever.  For ****'s sake, I wish there was a SJW conspiracy so we could have actual, non incrementally grinding progress forward. It has been a while since I had a warning, so the moderators should be embarrassed that they allow this nonsense to go forward. Hiding behind the facade of civil discourse does not mitigate the problematic basis of claiming that anything is SJW. 

 

And I leave this here (this is my observational opinion, based on my experience with their games as well their other media presence), the vast majority of Obsidian, the people who make this game, would be categorized as having SJW opinions.

 

But, it is really about ethics in gaming journalism, right?

 

For whatever this threads insufficiencies of effort. You act like more action need be taken to deter from SJW complaints landing inbetween Obsidian's HTML at all, when clearly the responses here show at this time that individuals are handling themselves. But given that your not into quoting specific and instead issuing a decree on an "entire thread", then maybe some people do need higher action to save their witnessing of other's disquiets.

 

There are both sensible and non-sensible ways to make progress forward, and at some point everyone is a SJW with a different opinion on how to proceed. Civil discourse should be a minimum bar of entry, narrating that it's a facade seems to be the real conspiracy here. Intrinsic to SJW is the warrior epithet which implies an err in "their" pragmatism. I have no doubt much of Obsidian is socially progressive, stripping the epithet of it's denotations of an individual's lack of productive civility does not allow you to "bequeath" it to Obsidian's employee's as if it's merely a progressives badge of honor.

 

Your very last rhetoric acts "to establish particular view points as equivalent", by making an age old call back to gg'ers. As if the conflicting opines on social topics must smell of continuance of that affair. Broad strokes for one concerned with broad strokes.

[Messier-31]

That is backwards. You started off by talking about majorities and minorities, but then point to what the devs created. That means you accept anything as long as it was part of the world building and it also means majorities and minorities is, in your case, irrelevant.

 

Recap of what I've said so far:

1. Few of LGBTQ characters in the game is totally fine.
2. Lots and lots of LGBTQ characters is improbable (because they're a minority), unless devs ofiicialy say that in fact yes, their world actually is full of LGBTQ characters to begin with.

[Beyond The Sea]

 

You know what is so funny? Hollow Knight was designed as agender. They are intentionally never refered to as he or she. Literally a "SJW" avatar.

Are you provokingly insinuating that I'm supporting SJW impartiality by choosing Hollow Knight as an avatar? If so, you're wrong. I picked this specific avatar because Hollow Knight was one of my goty for 2017.

 

Furthermore, the Knight is a negotiate of the elders so it makes sense for the Knight to be genderless, it's like a doll that came to life to do their bidding and nothing more. Sure there is patrionized fan-fic of te Knight falling for Hornet but this was all false as the Knight cannot and does not show emotion. It's simply a thing summoned to bring back order, so with that I'd say the game or Team Cherry aren't the SJW type.

 

But maybe they are. Grey Mourner is lesbian. Nailmaister Sheo and Nailsmith become a Happy Couple.

[limaxophobiacq]

When did nerds start getting so angry about writers political beliefs influencing their writing, which they're gonna do no matter what anyway? People watched Star Trek for decades without throwing constant angry fits about it being socialist/progressive propaganda on a level far beyond anything ever released by a major videogame developer.

 

As far as I'm concerned Obsidian can tell whatever story they want to tell, be that with a party of no LGBT characters (which seems to be what most peoples hangups are about?) or nothing but. If it's a good story I'll enjoy it and if it's bad I wont.

Edited January 12, 2018 by limaxophobiacq

[SonicMage117]

That's just it, nobody here is mad or angry about it...

 

Hell, me being the OP, my favorite shows are CW's DC universe (Arrow, Flash, Legends) and then Gotham. Those are all pretty liberal/SJW, doesn't mean I support it or am an SJW but not complaining or whining about it either.

 

It's strange, or at least I find it so, how many people have seen this thread, where I am only asking a simple question using a so-called "derogatory" term and write a comment as if I'm against those certain types of people/writings but I can't help but think the very people who are accusing others of whining are the very people who are angry themselves, simply for seeing a valid question of a thread that they don't like. To me it's beautiful though because it shows who is passionate for ir against the term whilist staying in the realms of forgiveness, for spaciousness on all fronts.

[daven]

Admit it, you're just trying to get an aggressive reaction out of people.

 

ADMIT IT!

[Ninjamestari]

Mostly to me it seems like people encounter a gay character and freak the **** out. I wonder if these are the same people who freak the **** out when they encounter an actual gay person.

 

In KOTOR I Force Persuaded somebody into giving me money because I could. In BG I murdered children. In Fable I killed like a half-dozen of my "wives". In Fallout 3 I *sold people into sexual slavery*.

 

But including gay characters is *right out* for these people?

 

I simply do not understand.

 

Yeah, I can see that you do not understand. It's not about people encountering a gay character, it's about people encountering a random NPC whose first priority is to express to the heavily armed group of strangers that they indeed are homosexual. This has nothing to do with sexual morality or some other bull**** like that, it has always been about people being sick of games force-feeding SJW-narrative down their throats.

 

And yeah, being an SJW is a negative thing, it means you've got no idea how the world functions and yet you're presumptuous enough to actually believe that you understand how the world should be. I mean, these snot-nosed punks assaulting traditional gender roles for example actually are arrogant enough to think that they are smarter than the wisdom of hundred million years of evolution bottled into our instincts, not to mention the utter lack of any moral backbone these people suffer from. Yeah, I'm talking about the trigglypuffs and smugglypuffs of the world and I know not every progressive liberal is that bad, but having such a strong opinion on how the world should be when you've got no idea about how the world actually is in the first place and sometimes outright denying objective empirically observed reality is simply a sign of supreme arrogance and ignorance.

 

When you vote, you're using political authority, it means power. With power comes responsibility, not to adhere to some idiotic, idealistic and simplistic moralist viewpoints, but to actually know and understand the very real implications of the beliefs and views you put your power behind. An SJW is simply someone who forsakes that responsibility and takes the easy way out by adopting beliefs that seem to be socially acceptable in their immediate surroundings, confusing them with being morally correct, and then abusing the hell out of their power of their civic rights. And no, listening to emotional stories and feeling outrage is not the same thing as understanding what the hell is going on.

[Messier-31]

I think people take issue with 'SJW' additions to a game when they feel forced....shoe-horned in, rather than subtly added, almost like one needs to fit a quota of 'diversity' for a cast or spectrum of characters.  For eg having to have at least one gay and one bi npc/party member in a relatively small pool of potential team mates to choose from, just to show that there is diversity, rather than sometimes having them in, sometimes not (for main npcs).

 

Thats ok depending on story and setting, just as in real life there being small percentage minorities that arent always represented every, single, time, and when theyre not, it doesn't necessarily mean discrimination, just that it's ok to not always have to fill a quota that the vast majority don't always fall into, otherwise it feels too artificial.

 

It's the forcing of and cliche passed off as diverse, rather than the natural occasional implementation thats the issue.

 

 

It's not about people encountering a gay character, it's about people encountering a random NPC whose first priority is to express to the heavily armed group of strangers that they indeed are homosexual. This has nothing to do with sexual morality or some other bull**** like that, it has always been about people being sick of games force-feeding SJW-narrative down their throats.

 

This.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Messier-31

[Frog Man]

 

It is hard to understand what you are trying to say.

 

Well, and that’s why I am not a comedian. Satire is not my forte. I am trying though, goddammit.

On the contrary I laughed out loud. Really funny post.

[Wormerine]

 

 

It is hard to understand what you are trying to say.

Well, and that’s why I am not a comedian. Satire is not my forte. I am trying though, goddammit.

On the contrary I laughed out loud. Really funny post.

https://goo.gl/images/FsgXYz

 

Thank you.

[limaxophobiacq]

 I mean, these snot-nosed punks assaulting traditional gender roles for example actually are arrogant enough to think that they are smarter than the wisdom of hundred million years of evolution bottled into our instincts, not to mention the utter lack of any moral backbone these people suffer from.

 

This doesn't have much to do with PoE but you're gonna have to explain how you get from traditional gender roles to millions of years of evolution. For one traditional gender roles and morality generally enforce strict monogamy (at least for women) while basic evolutionary biology demands pretty much everyone in a monogamous relationship try to cheat if they can get away with it; men to spread their seed and women to aquire higher quality seed (basically the only one who shouldn't cheat is the woman who already has the one male with the highest quality genes). Now personally I think that sounds kind of ****ty and see no reason we should assume that what is 'natural' is for some reason inherently good, malaria and the plague are natural too so TBH **** nature.

 

Also while traditional gender roles (at least the aspects that are shared by varied cultures across the world) must certainly have filled a function in the past they are still a result of an environment we no longer live in. F.ex. women staying home so they can give birth to and raise a bunch of kids is important when child mortality is high and even those who make it to adulthood don't always live that long, just so that there doesn't stop being people. Now that there's 7.6 billion of us and we live for a close to a century it doesn't really serve a function. Also again even if those gender roles were inevitable due to environmental factors it doesn't make them good, so **** traditional gender roles too. The world can and should be a better place.

Edited January 12, 2018 by limaxophobiacq

[Ninjamestari]

 

 I mean, these snot-nosed punks assaulting traditional gender roles for example actually are arrogant enough to think that they are smarter than the wisdom of hundred million years of evolution bottled into our instincts, not to mention the utter lack of any moral backbone these people suffer from.

 

This doesn't have much to do with PoE but you're gonna have to explain how you get from traditional gender roles to millions of years of evolution. For one traditional gender roles and morality generally enforce strict monogamy (at least for women) while basic evolutionary biology demands pretty much everyone in a monogamous relationship try to cheat if they can get away with it; men to spread their seed and women to aquire higher quality seed (basically the only one who shouldn't cheat is the woman who already has the one male with the highest quality genes). Now personally I think that sounds kind of ****ty and see no reason we should assume that what is 'natural' is for some reason inherently good, malaria and the plague are natural too so TBH **** nature.

 

Also while traditional gender roles (at least the aspects that are shared by varied cultures across the world) must certainly have filled a function in the past they are still a result of an environment we no longer live in. F.ex. women staying home so they can give birth to and raise a bunch of kids is important when child mortality is high and even those who make it to adulthood don't always live that long, just so that there doesn't stop being people. Now that there's 7.6 billion of us and we live for a close to a century it doesn't really serve a function. Also again even if those gender roles where inevitable due to environmental factors it doesn't make them good, so **** traditional gender roles too. The world can and should be a better place.

 

 

Yeah, perhaps I should've used 'biological' instead of 'traditional' there. I'm from Finland and traditions have always been a lot more down to earth here. Then again, the traditional gender roles are a result of thousands of years of cultural evolution, so there's a ton of wisdom in them too, but which parts of those traditions are the ones that turned our western culture into the dominant force on the globe and which are the ones that are causing our downfall really isn't as obvious, they might very well be the same.

 

You're right about our polygamous nature (quality of seed is only one reason among many for women to be sleeping around), but what I was referring to was our roles in society, not any sexual-morality bull****. IE, women are not warriors and leaders, but they are afforded special protection due to their fundamentally important role in reproduction. Dying in battle is left for men who are expendable, and leadership positions are left for men because they are stronger and more focused. That being said, I've got no problem with female warriors as long as they are the exception and they are well written, such as Pallegina. She's perfectly written, a broken and shunned little bird that has been forced to fight for her approval and thrust in the world of men, and against all odds she has not only survived, but also thrived. She's also still a very feminine character and even manages to be attractive, she really is a brilliantly written character.

 

EDIT: what I'm talking about when speaking of traditional gender roles, I'm talking about the traditional roles women and men have occupied, not the traditional roles that have been culturally accepted at point x in time. Just like women are driven to sleep around, men are driven to prevent it. Also when it comes to monogamy, it is a measure to protect women, as assigning a man the special responsibility of taking care of her and her children. If you're familiar with the word 'shotgun wedding', where if a man impregnates a woman, the men of the woman's family go and get said man and force him to marry the woman with a shotgun to his back to ensure that the woman and the child are taken care of. Monogamy is a response to a very real and very practical problem; as the man is more invested with a single woman, the chances of that woman's survival go up, as well as the chances of her offspring. A man with multiple women doesn't really care that much for the individual woman in his harem, but a Man that has all the eggs in one basket so to speak will do his damnest to make sure that basket is safe. That's the general idea anyway, we all know it doesn't always work that way but there it is.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Ninjamestari

[MortyTheGobbo]

I think people take issue with 'SJW' additions to a game when they feel forced....shoe-horned in, rather than subtly added, almost like one needs to fit a quota of 'diversity' for a cast or spectrum of characters.  For eg having to have at least one gay and one bi npc/party member in a relatively small pool of potential team mates to choose from, just to show that there is diversity, rather than sometimes having them in, sometimes not (for main npcs).

 

Thats ok depending on story and setting, just as in real life there being small percentage minorities that arent always represented every, single, time, and when theyre not, it doesn't necessarily mean discrimination, just that it's ok to not always have to fill a quota that the vast majority don't always fall into, otherwise it feels too artificial.

 

It's the forcing of and cliche passed off as diverse, rather than the natural occasional implementation thats the issue.

 

Ironically, diversity in writing these days usually falls into cliches only for sexual diversity, or a minority taking the role of a traditional stereotype i.e. female warrior in a stereotypical male role, like a 'look we are bucking the trends in an considerate and diverse way'.

Diversity and uniqueness in writing would also encompass characters who are likeable yet also have unsavoury traits (Durance is a perfect example of good writing in that way).

 

How is adding a few LGBT characters any different than making sure we've got at least one member of each class and race in our team? And from several different cultures, including a dwarf from the White that Wends. Warriors and rogues are likewise more common than ciphers or wizards, and yet we've got a cipher and a wizard but no rogue before White March. And when we do get a rogue, she's an animancy-powered construct who just so happens to be a survivor of the religious purge that still hangs heavy over the Dyrwood. Crazy coincidences all around.

 

"Forced" and "shoehorned" are vague enough terms that they can be applied to just about any minority or female character, when someone wants to complain about them without outright saying they shouldn't be there.

 

 

That is backwards. You started off by talking about majorities and minorities, but then point to what the devs created. That means you accept anything as long as it was part of the world building and it also means majorities and minorities is, in your case, irrelevant.

 

Recap of what I've said so far:

1. Few of LGBTQ characters in the game is totally fine.
2. Lots and lots of LGBTQ characters is improbable (because they're a minority), unless devs ofiicialy say that in fact yes, their world actually is full of LGBTQ characters to begin with.

 

 

"Lots and lots" of LGBT character is not and has never been on the table, as far as Deadfire is concerned. Or any other mainstream (or close to it) game, for that matter. Most likely we'll get a few gay and bi love interests, and hopefully some LGBT NPCs, so that our team isn't the only place LGBT people actually exist.

 

Talking about how too many LGBT characters would be unrealistic seems like a slippery slope fallacy to me. Implying that if we introduce some, clearly we'll be crawling with them before long. But right now, we're at a point where adding any LGBT characters to a game is enough for a very loud subset of players to accuse its creators of participating in a SJW takeover of gaming.

Edited January 12, 2018 by MortyTheGobbo

[Mannock]

 

I think people take issue with 'SJW' additions to a game when they feel forced....shoe-horned in, rather than subtly added, almost like one needs to fit a quota of 'diversity' for a cast or spectrum of characters.  For eg having to have at least one gay and one bi npc/party member in a relatively small pool of potential team mates to choose from, just to show that there is diversity, rather than sometimes having them in, sometimes not (for main npcs).

 

Thats ok depending on story and setting, just as in real life there being small percentage minorities that arent always represented every, single, time, and when theyre not, it doesn't necessarily mean discrimination, just that it's ok to not always have to fill a quota that the vast majority don't always fall into, otherwise it feels too artificial.

 

It's the forcing of and cliche passed off as diverse, rather than the natural occasional implementation thats the issue.

 

 

It's not about people encountering a gay character, it's about people encountering a random NPC whose first priority is to express to the heavily armed group of strangers that they indeed are homosexual. This has nothing to do with sexual morality or some other bull**** like that, it has always been about people being sick of games force-feeding SJW-narrative down their throats.

 

This.

 

 

I can only think of one case where that has happened; in Siege of Dragonspear (which I believe was adressed too). But has it ever happened in PoE? Not to my recollection and therefor I find it highly unlikely to happen in PoE2 either.

 

So again, come back with a realistic "SJW writing" example. I have seen none so far.

[Katarack21]

I can name like ten ****ing societies that have more than two genders. Evolution has determined sex, it has nothing to do with gender. That's psuedoscience bull****.

[Jojobobo]

I somehow could sense this thread was going to tend towards discussing, "the quality of men's seed." That's always where these threads go.

[Messier-31]

I can only think of one case where that has happened; in Siege of Dragonspear (which I believe was adressed too). But has it ever happened in PoE? Not to my recollection and therefor I find it highly unlikely to happen in PoE2 either.

 

So again, come back with a realistic "SJW writing" example. I have seen none so far.

 

And there You go, missing my point again. Did I ever said that something like that happened in PoE?

 

Maybe my English is messy (messy, get it?), but I've only posted my opinion on where the limits of "SJW writing" should be.

 

How come You came to think that I have some hidden "examples" is beyond me.

 

Ta-ta.

[Katarack21]

It's like proposing limits for pink unicorn flight paths. I mean, go ahead...but it's really stupid.

[Mannock]

 

I can only think of one case where that has happened; in Siege of Dragonspear (which I believe was adressed too). But has it ever happened in PoE? Not to my recollection and therefor I find it highly unlikely to happen in PoE2 either.

 

So again, come back with a realistic "SJW writing" example. I have seen none so far.

 

And there You go, missing my point again. Did I ever said that something like that happened in PoE?

 

Maybe my English is messy (messy, get it?), but I've only posted my opinion on where the limits of "SJW writing" should be.

 

How come You came to think that I have some hidden "examples" is beyond me.

 

Ta-ta.

 

 

This is a forum about Pillars of Eternity 2. What's the point of bringing up examples that have no relevance to the PoE series?

 

There seems to be a legit fear of "SJW writing" making it's way into the game and so far no one has been able produce any actual examples of what that might be. I'm just trying to call bullcrap on the entire phenomena in regards to PoE.

[Wormerine]

The tread is named “SJW integration in Deadfire”, which considering Obs doesn’t have a history of pushing political agendas, was never a danger. It’s a thread about pink unicorns and if they will cross our flight path. They might, but there is no reason to suspect that they will.

 

 

 

 

PS. Apologies in advance for attempted humor.

[Ninjamestari]

I somehow could sense this thread was going to tend towards discussing, "the quality of men's seed." That's always where these threads go.

 

So a discussion was always going to head towards the fundamental reality that underlies it? Isn't that a good thing?

[Ninjamestari]

The tread is named “SJW integration in Deadfire”, which considering Obs doesn’t have a history of pushing political agendas, was never a danger. It’s a thread about pink unicorns and if they will cross our flight path. They might, but there is no reason to suspect that they will.

 

PS. Apologies in advance for attempted humor.

 

Well, we live in the time of diversity officials, so there's no telling what kinds of pressures Obsidian are under. I trust that if they have the freedom to do stuff their own way, SJW bullcrap won't be a problem in Deadfire. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Ninjamestari

[kierun]

Virtue signal everywhere…

 

Is there a way to block/ignore threads on this form? You know, so you do not see them at all…