Monk beta analysis

[KDubya]

I find Stunning Blow to be terrible at a cost of two mortification. A multi has like 5 and a pure monk has like 7 at level nine (going by memory) I'd want at least three uses of Swift Strikes so that leaves one use of Stunning Blow per fight. Not worth the ability point spent, definitely not worth the two to upgrade it. 

 

Give me a spammable Force of Anguish and a spammable Torment's Reach, especially the stun upgrade. Wounds are limitless with a Shattered Pillar as I only have to cause damage to fuel it, not take a beating and need healing.

 

Keeping Lightning Strikes up all the time is worth it to me. +35% action speed, +30% lash and it even activates Wellspring of Life for another +2 power levels which get you +1 penetration, +4 accuracy and +15% damage.

 

What do you do with your stockpiled wounds #6-10? I could see benefit for a Helwalker to max out their Might bonus and auto attack or cast spells or whatever, but what does a Nalpazca need a stockpile of wounds?

 

Unlike the others which take damage for wounds where their is no limit to how much damage you can sustain (except for total health pool), a Shattered Pillar is limited to their own damage output. A Force of Anguish can generate enough damage to spam forever, Torments usually gets two, three on a crit so you might have to add in a auto attack in between each one but since it stuns in a cone its pretty safe. For this five wounds is enough.

 

When we finally see the highest level abilities and what they cost we can revisit the question on five being acceptable or not. It might be that a Shattered Pillar does better with a multi class where they miss the highest abilities in the event that the five wound max severely hampers the Shattered Pillar. 

 

Pale Elfs are cool in that they can have beards but mechanically Nature Godlikes are pretty damn good for fist monks. An inherent +4 accuracy and +15% damage is like getting a hat that gives you +4 Perception and +5 Might.

 

On Devoted/Monks - they are very good but a single class Monk is in the same ballpark. Its close enough that individual taste will sway it one way or the other. At least in the Beta where max level is nine and we don't know what happens at level 10-20.

 

After the first few iterations where multiclass was always better it was refreshing to have a tough choice between going multi or single.

[dunehunter]

If they make abilities that cost wounds into Full attack abilities, then it will be the same problem as it is in PoE 1, you have endless wounds, you spam full attack abiities, you dump the hell out of Dex.

[Boeroer]

Since there are no bonuses for piling wounds 5 is enough for a Shattered Pillar. I mean he even gets wounds when Rooting Pain hits and with every hit he lands, be it Force of Anguish or Torment's Reach. When enemies are disabled he can still get wounds by hitting them. A normal monk will get none if the enemies are not attacking him.

[Soulmojo]

Since there are no bonuses for piling wounds 5 is enough for a Shattered Pillar. I mean he even gets wounds when Rooting Pain hits and with every hit he lands, be it Force of Anguish or Torment's Reach. When enemies are disabled he can still get wounds by hitting them. A normal monk will get none if the enemies are not attacking him.

There is. Duality of mortal presence. +1 con or +1 Int / wound

 

I wouldn't call that nor mediocre, nor non essential.

 

Presumably there will be iron wheel in some form.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Soulmojo

[AndreaColombo]

A Shattered Pillar can use Duality of Mortal Presence to keep INT at +5 at all times and increase the duration and AoE of Torment's Reach. You can instruct the A.I. to use Torment's Reach only at 5 wounds; with a well-built Monk, getting 5 wounds is fairly quick and Torment's Reach generates at least 1 wound itself. You'll be back up at 5 in no time and Torment's Reach goes off again.

 

The +10 is more useful to Helwalkers, IMO. That's the subclass that really wants to hold onto the wounds, and getting +10 CON or INT on top of +10 MIG is pretty good.

 

EDIT: Has anyone tested the talent that lowers the threshold for wounds with a Shattered Pillar? Does it lower the amount of damage you need to deal to generate a wound?

Edited April 7, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[dunehunter]

 

Since there are no bonuses for piling wounds 5 is enough for a Shattered Pillar. I mean he even gets wounds when Rooting Pain hits and with every hit he lands, be it Force of Anguish or Torment's Reach. When enemies are disabled he can still get wounds by hitting them. A normal monk will get none if the enemies are not attacking him.

There is. Duality of mortal presence. +1 con or +1 Int / wound

 

I wouldn't call that nor mediocre, nor non essential.

 

Presumably there will be iron wheel in some form.

 

 

Every subclass has a bonus and malus right? For shattered pillar it is ++rooting pain ++synergy with dps build, --duality of mortal presence, --passive builds, don't see the issue here.

[Soulmojo]

 

 

Since there are no bonuses for piling wounds 5 is enough for a Shattered Pillar. I mean he even gets wounds when Rooting Pain hits and with every hit he lands, be it Force of Anguish or Torment's Reach. When enemies are disabled he can still get wounds by hitting them. A normal monk will get none if the enemies are not attacking him.

There is. Duality of mortal presence. +1 con or +1 Int / wound

 

I wouldn't call that nor mediocre, nor non essential.

 

Presumably there will be iron wheel in some form.

 

 

Every subclass has a bonus and malus right? For shattered pillar it is ++rooting pain ++synergy with dps build, --duality of mortal presence, --passive builds, don't see the issue here.

 

 

Except. Nalpazca penalty is not a real penalty. Pop drugs and you are game the entire fight. 

Except Helwalker weakness is only a weakness untill you get your hands on those sweet armors and buff up your alchemy.

 

Did you know for example if you buff up alchemy the bonuses from potions increase? pop up a spirit shield potion at alchemy 8-10 you get +4 armor?

Basic is +3 but with alchemy you increase it. You just negated the +5% damage from wound by negating your incoming damage by 75%.

Every scenario I played the other two subs will bypass their penalties and turn them to their advantage. 

 

With shattered pillar you are stuck with your 5 wound counter. And it doesn't matter how much you try to convince me that the 5 wound limit is actually good because it is not, and you are all on the wrong side of things on this subject.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Soulmojo

[dunehunter]

I never use alchemy because I think they are brokenly overpowered right now. But you have a point nod.

[Soulmojo]

I never use alchemy because I think they are brokenly overpowered right now. But you have a point nod.

 

Oh thank you very much. I will sleep tonight in peace now.

 

Seriously though. I might be convinced on the other subject - different playstyles and all - but I always thought that if you have to sacrifice features for some other features that is bad mechanic or design. Don't confuse this with choice, where I decide between use this or that ability when I play. In these cases you give up a mechanic designated for you to use to make to make another work.

 

This is why I don't understand why are you conflicting so eagerly with me. It is not like I'm suggesting overly broken changes. Each of those recommendations would make gameplay more easier and linear. Especially with shattered pillar I am so much baffled why you object. All of you. Can you explain me why because I seriously don't understand. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Soulmojo

[KDubya]

 

I never use alchemy because I think they are brokenly overpowered right now. But you have a point nod.

 

Oh thank you very much. I will sleep tonight in peace now.

 

Seriously though. I might be convinced on the other subject - different playstyles and all - but I always thought that if you have to sacrifice features for some other features that is bad mechanic or design. Don't confuse this with choice, where I decide between use this or that ability when I play. In these cases you give up a mechanic designated for you to use to make to make another work.

 

This is why I don't understand why are you conflicting so eagerly with me. Each of those recommendations would make gameplay more easier and linear. Especially with shattered pillar I am so much baffled why you object. All of you. Can you explain me why because I seriously don't understand. 

 

 

Your suggestions on Torments Reach to use the limited Mortification instead of the limitless Wounds is a big non-starter for me.

 

If Swift Strikes costed Wounds I'd have no use for Mortifications at all. At that point you could probably just do away with Mortification completely.

 

Every sub class gets a malus and Shattered Pillars get reduced Wound capacity, what would be a suitable replacement?

[Soulmojo]

If Swift Strikes costed Wounds I'd have no use for Mortifications at all. At that point you could probably just do away with Mortification completely.

 

 

 

I understand this. but think about this:

 

You could use Stunning blows for starter. There will be more abilites with mortification cost.

 

These are from the beta patch notes:

Monk Exploding Palm is now named "Inner Death".

Monk Dim Mak is now named "Empowered Strikes".

Skyward kick

 

There will be mortification abilities almost for sure + other stuff we don't know about. Wouldn't it be nice to have room to actually use those abilities?

 

Your suggestions on Torments Reach to use the limited Mortification instead of the limitless Wounds is a big non-starter for me.

 

 

Consider this: In a fight how much do you use torments reach or to be more accurate how much can you use it?

My guess would be 6-10 times before the fight is over. If you don't put point for anything else and this ability costs 1 mortification you can use it 6 times at level 7. 9 times if you refill with empower. In return, you would get a full attack -> finally doing recognizable damage on the primary target and doing the same aoe to everyone. The stun upgrade and aoe effect could stay the same for all I care. This last part is a non issue for me.

 

This way it is better. I came to the realization when I did a playthrough with a Paladin/monk. Flames of devotion was a real game changer and It really complemented the monk. Consider that if you have a torments reach version of that ability right from lvl 2-3. It would be stronger than it is now, but not that strong, and by mid game you could do the same amount of torments reach as you would do with wounds.

 

+ if swift strikes would cost wound then you can maintain it at ease. Lets not forget that in PoE1 Swift strikes was a wound ability. So my suggestion is not that out of the ballpark either.

 

very sub class gets a malus and Shattered Pillars get reduced Wound capacity, what would be a suitable replacement?

 

 

Nothing. This is an unnecessary penalty. That is what I'm saying. This limit is a double penalty on your character, because you not only have very tight pool, but you lose half of whatever bonus you get from duality of mortal presence, and every other possible ability we cannot see. 

Also you have a given penalty. You cannot gain wound from damage taken.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Soulmojo

[dunehunter]

True, if turning wheel and iron wheel remain same as they were in PoE 1, it’s a big malus for shattered pillars

 

One way is remove shattered pillar’s 5 wound limit, another way is limit the maximum benefit of both wheel to 5 wounds.

Edited April 7, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

But when taking Rooting Pain you DO get wounds from getting hit as a Shattered Pillar - kind of.

 

Getting wounds from dealing damage is a lot more effective than getting wounds from taking damage. There has to be a drawback. Not necessarily -5 max wounds, but something. Maybe 7 wounds would be ok.

 

Torment's Reach via Mortification is a big no for me, too. I like to use both Swift Strikes and Stunning Blows so far. Skyward kick will most likely be paid with it, too (was per encounter in PoE, like Stunning Blows). So no room for Torment's Reach there, competing for the scarce, non-refillable resource Mortification.

 

I'd have no problems if Swift Strikes would work with wounds instead of Mortification though.

[JerekKruger]

Honestly Mortification is kind of a no no for me. I don't understand what was wrong with Monks having a single resource. 

[djinnxy]

Torment's Reach via Mortification is a big no for me, too.

 

If it is mortification I will simply never take that ability. That was one of my favorites from 1.

Edited April 7, 2018 by djinnxy

[Gromnir]

as to helwalkers being "glassy," we would recommend experimenting with 'em ranged.  the return of might makes ranged helwalkers silly powerful particular when combined with a dedicated caster.  dance of death, scepters and a handful o' self-harming spells, is ideal development options for a ranged helwalker sage or contemplative or even ascetic. the helwaker's might bonus stacks with spells such as holy power, so within moments o' combat starting, you will have a +10ish might multiclass caster with might further increasing as combat endures.  helwalker sages is a bit more difficult to micro manage than other combos as they do not self heal, but an ascetic or contemplative can manage the damage malus in most circumstances.  

 

a lightning strikes boosted contemplative dual wielding scepters in modal is hitting extreme fast, and choose an alchemy background is a too obvious choice as is gonna be taking particular advantage o' all those action speed potions as both monk and priest has alchemy skill bonuses.  'course the +30 might supported heals and offensive spells is where the contemplative genuine shines.  choose wael as priest and get nice defensive spells to mitigate incoming damage and blade turning lets the helwalker ignore melee damage for a few seconds if you do get in near death situations. a ranged helwalker/priest o' wael is also able to exploit rod blast quite nice.  

 

helwalkers is glassy, and am genuine wondering how they will hold up in dragon fights or the like.  +50% incoming damage at 10 wounds serious hurts, but contemplatives and ascetics is ideal fodder for combining with a ranged helwalker.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[AndreaColombo]

I’d also like to voice my no for Torment’s Reach via Mortification.

 

Helwalker works pretty well with Fighter too due to high MIG contributing to Constant Recovery.

[Enoch]

For what it's worth, in the recent stream Josh talked a little about subclass balance, and the first subclass he mentioned by name was Nalpazca.  (As "still probably kind of crazy.")

 

So, (1) this probably means good things for the general availability of drugs in the main game, and (2) expect that some nerfs will be applied to Nalpazca, drugs, and/or Alchemy. 

[Soulmojo]

But when taking Rooting Pain you DO get wounds from getting hit as a Shattered Pillar - kind of.

 

Getting wounds from dealing damage is a lot more effective than getting wounds from taking damage. There has to be a drawback. Not necessarily -5 max wounds, but something. Maybe 7 wounds would be ok.

 

Torment's Reach via Mortification is a big no for me, too. I like to use both Swift Strikes and Stunning Blows so far. Skyward kick will most likely be paid with it, too (was per encounter in PoE, like Stunning Blows). So no room for Torment's Reach there, competing for the scarce, non-refillable resource Mortification.

 

I'd have no problems if Swift Strikes would work with wounds instead of Mortification though.

 

It only is more effective - the wound generation on shattered pillar - if you can hit the enemy constantly and with large numbers. Honestly I expected wound generation to be as hard as it was in PoE1, but it is not. It is rather easy in my opinion. Mainly because of the added abilities and mechanics. I was convinced that shattered pillar bonus would be crazy overpowered, but since it is very easy and far less punishing to get wounds (great job dev team btw) nowadays I find the shattered pillar bonus less appealing. This is the other reason why I believe  the wound penalty on this subclass is appalling.

 

As for the rooting pain mechanic functioning with shattered pillar I haven't considered, thanks for bringing that up to me.

 

 

to helwalkers being "glassy," we would recommend experimenting with 'em ranged.  

 

 

I tried out ranged weapon monk, and it is not working. The synergy is there, but every wound ability which is not a self buff is designated as melee only. Meaning except stunning blows you cannot cast nor torments reach, nor force of anguish and probably every other attack ability. 

Ofc. you can still use it as an auto attack option (sigh...) but it is not quite effective, it only gets somewhat good if you combine ranged with rogue or paladin, the two which have efficient full attack abilities. But then again, why don't you make a rogue/paladin in the first place.

 

 

For what it's worth, in the recent stream Josh talked a little about subclass balance, and the first subclass he mentioned by name was Nalpazca.  (As "still probably kind of crazy.")

 

So, (1) this probably means good things for the general availability of drugs in the main game, and (2) expect that some nerfs will be applied to Nalpazca, drugs, and/or Alchemy. 

 

 

 

Probably alchemy will be nerfed and drugs duration.

 

---------------------

 

I also have to point out that we are in disagreement on abilities probably because I prefer burst damage over sustained, and because I hate auto-attack gameplay. I like to quickly dispose enemies as opposed to just sitting there auto attacking spamming boring buffs over and over again you know, and currently monk lacks an efficient burst attack ability of which he cast a lot. Losing full attack on torments reach was a big hit to me.

I suggest for all of you to make a monk/paladin playthrough and come back to me with your experience. I really cannot make you understand my position as long as you don't know what I'm talking about. I suggest kind wayfarers as a sub for paladin. Disregard swift strikes too for that play through.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Boeroer]

I tried out ranged weapon monk, and it is not working. The synergy is there, but every wound ability which is not a self buff is designated as melee only. Meaning except stunning blows you cannot cast nor torments reach, nor force of anguish and probably every other attack ability. 

Ofc. you can still use it as an auto attack option (sigh...) but it is not quite effective, it only gets somewhat good if you combine ranged with rogue or paladin, the two which have efficient full attack abilities. But then again, why don't you make a rogue/paladin in the first place.

You could wait for the Long Pain - despite being ranged it works with monk's melee abilites (as long as they didn't nerf it recently). Wait - I never tested if it works with other classes' melee abilite as well. Stupid me. I only tested it with Driving Flight (works).

[Gromnir]

 

I tried out ranged weapon monk, and it is not working. The synergy is there, but every wound ability which is not a self buff is designated as melee only. Meaning except stunning blows you cannot cast nor torments reach, nor force of anguish and probably every other attack ability. 

Ofc. you can still use it as an auto attack option (sigh...) but it is not quite effective, it only gets somewhat good if you combine ranged with rogue or paladin, the two which have efficient full attack abilities. But then again, why don't you make a rogue/paladin in the first place.

You could wait for the Long Pain - despite being ranged it works with monk's melee abilites (as long as they didn't nerf it recently). Wait - I never tested if it works with other classes' melee abilite as well. Stupid me. I only tested it with Driving Flight (works).

 

obvious reason to make a ranged helwalker is, as we already noted, how it synergizes well with a few casters.  dance of death and the helwalker might bonuses alone make such combinations highly effective.  passives such as soul mirror is nice and second tier of clarity o' agony provides smart inspiration, so your caster will be swift and smart for a large portion o' any combat while benefiting from +30 might... and as long as they ain't being hit too much, which is kinda the point o' going ranged, you is gonna be receiving increasing accuracy bonuses and generating wounds.  is not difficult to figure out how a perpetual super-mighty, high dex and high int caster with a significant accuracy bonus is gonna work.  is particular efficacious with priest o' wael at the moment.  typical slow blast rod in modal is surprising fast when benefiting from swift strikes, +20 dex and potions which increase speed... arcane veil and llengraths displaced image is also adding survivability beyond base priestly heals for an otherwise glassy ranged build. 

 

is not brain surgery.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Soulmojo]

Yesterday I tested duality of mortal presence and helwalker bonus, with inspirations (+5stat). 

 

Helwalker STR from wounds is stacking with inspiration bonus (+5str from thunderous blows)

 

Duality of mortal presence Constitution and Intellect bonus does not stack with inspiration. If you have 6+ wounds you only receive the bonus from the higher stat.

 

Probably you all know this, just wanted to point this out.

[Boeroer]

Yes. Helwalker MIG bonus is passive and thus stacks with everything while Duality is an active modal and thus doesn't stack with other actives.

[Wormerine]

Stacking is annoyingly confusing.

[Boeroer]

Hm... I don't completely understand why there's still confusion about this in the forums. Sure - I also was uncertain what stacks and what not in beta1 - until I read this in the game (and here):

 

Passives stack, actives don't.

 

It's a lot simpler than PoE1 because now it's made very clear what passives and what actives are (except with proficiency modals which are also considered actives - every modal is. That could be made more clear).

Edited April 18, 2018 by Boeroer