Thoughts on Wizard Summoned Weapons

[JerekKruger]

In Pillars of Eternity one of the defining features of the various Wizard summoned weapons (Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff, Citzal's Spirit Lance etc.) was their higher than normal base damage (Concelhaut's Staff had a base damage of 20-30 vs 14-20 for a normal Quarterstaff). This made all +Damage modifiers (in particular Might) that bit more powerful for them. In Deadfire they have the same base damage as their non-summoned versions.

 

Moreover these weapons now have scaling bonuses. For example, at level 1 Concelhaut's Staff has no quality enchantment at all: the spell simply summons an (admittedly cool looking) normal quality Quarterstaff with the Draining Enchantment (actually at the moment it simply summons a normal quality Quarterstaff with no other properties). Again, one of the things that made this spell good was the fact that it gave a hefty Accuracy bonus (+ at a low level (admittedly Wizards now have the same base Accuracy as everyone else, so this is less important).

 

It seems to me that these spells are much less powerful than they were in PoE. What are peoples' thoughts on them?

 

Unrelated to their effectiveness, who would like to see some summonable single handed weapons or shields? Also who feels the new graphics for Citzal's Spirit Lance are a downgrade?

[dunehunter]

In Pillars of Eternity one of the defining features of the various Wizard summoned weapons (Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff, Citzal's Spirit Lance etc.) was their higher than normal base damage (Concelhaut's Staff had a base damage of 20-30 vs 14-20 for a normal Quarterstaff). This made all +Damage modifiers (in particular Might) that bit more powerful for them. In Deadfire they have the same base damage as their non-summoned versions.

 

Moreover these weapons now have scaling bonuses. For example, at level 1 Concelhaut's Staff has no quality enchantment at all: the spell simply summons an (admittedly cool looking) normal quality Quarterstaff with the Draining Enchantment (actually at the moment it simply summons a normal quality Quarterstaff with no other properties). Again, one of the things that made this spell good was the fact that it gave a hefty Accuracy bonus (+ at a low level (admittedly Wizards now have the same base Accuracy as everyone else, so this is less important).

 

It seems to me that these spells are much less powerful than they were in PoE. What are peoples' thoughts on them?

 

Unrelated to their effectiveness, who would like to see some summonable single handed weapons or shields? Also who feels the new graphics for Citzal's Spirit Lance are a downgrade?

 

The Citzal's Spirit Lance has some kinda of old Carnage like aoe damage, so I'm sure it will have synergy with other classes. But it comes so slow to make it useful. And the Staff spell is not very good yeah. But if there's no draining weapon in game, then it will make the Concelhaut's Staff unique.

 

Firebrand is also downtuned now it is not worth casting right now.

[JerekKruger]

The Citzal's Spirit Lance has some kinda of old Carnage like aoe damage, so I'm sure it will have synergy with other classes. But it comes so slow to make it useful. 

 

Yeah, the cast time is another problem with these spells. As for synergies, I suspect they won't survive to release as Carnage already doesn't proc on hit effects etc.

 

And the Staff spell is not very good yeah. But if there's no draining weapon in game, then it will make the Concelhaut's Staff unique.

 

The thing is, in PoE the thing that made it good wasn't really the draining (though that was nice), it was the high damage and accuracy bonus.

 

Firebrand is also downtuned now it is not worth casting right now.

 

Yeah, Firebrand really relied on its high base damage to be good.

 

I hear good things about the Priest summonable weapons though, apart from their long casting time of course.

Edited December 5, 2017 by JerekKruger

[AndreaColombo]

Part of the nerfing is probably due to the fact that Wizards now have higher starting Accuracy and can become proficient in the use of these weapons, thus benefiting from the relative modals. Plus you can multiclass a Wizard to Fighter, Monk, or Barbarian; in PoE you could only use those weapons on a pure Wizard. It sort of makes sense that they wouldn't be as powerful in this context.

 

Currently the staff isn't draining at all, which is a confirmed bug. Likewise, QA confirmed casting times are being looked at by the design team, so we'll see where that gets us; right now I agree casting times are way too long in general, and definitely for summoned weapons.

[dunehunter]

Berath's spiritual sword is really good tho, my paladin/berath priest does more than 100 damage per hit with that dark greatsword. Too bad I cannot do Bleak walker/Berath priest :/

 

Edit: and Skaen priest's apprentice sneak attack stack with rogue sneak attack, so a Skaen Priest/Rogue would work too, and it has club/stiletto spiritual weapons.

Edited December 6, 2017 by dunehunter

[JerekKruger]

Part of the nerfing is probably due to the fact that Wizards now have higher starting Accuracy and can become proficient in the use of these weapons, thus benefiting from the relative modals. Plus you can multiclass a Wizard to Fighter, Monk, or Barbarian; in PoE you could only use those weapons on a pure Wizard. It sort of makes sense that they wouldn't be as powerful in this context.

 

The higher Accuracy thing probably offsets the loss of the guaranteed Exceptional enchantment at early levels, but I don't agree that access to Weapon Proficiencies should factor into this. Wizard's had access to Weapon Focus (what Proficiencies have replaced) talents in Pillars just like everyone else.

 

I don't agree that the ability to multiclass as a martial class should factor in to the reduction in damage however. One of the stated goals of the devs was to ensure single class characters should be competitive with multiclass characters so a Wizard who uses these weapons shouldn't be punished just because they could multiclass as a Fighter.

 

Currently the staff isn't draining at all, which is a confirmed bug. Likewise, QA confirmed casting times are being looked at by the design team, so we'll see where that gets us; right now I agree casting times are way too long in general, and definitely for summoned weapons.

 

 

Yeah, I linked to Boeroer's bug report in the OP (I found it when I was about to post the same bug). Improving casting times for these weapons would help a lot in making them useful too however I think they'd still be underpowered.

 

Think about it this way: the two Wizard summonables currently give you a normal version of their respective weapon type with a scaling quality enchant and a unique enchantment (Draining or pseudo-Carnage). It seems likely that at the same sort of level you could simply equip your Wizard with a non-summoned version of these weapons with the same quality enchantment, so the question is whether it's worth using a spell cast and waiting whatever the casting time duration is for the unique enchantment (with Draining I'd say no, with Carnage the answer is maybe). If you've got a staff or pike with the same quality enchant and its own unique enchantment then it becomes even less worthwhile.

 

Berath's spiritual sword is really good tho, my paladin/berath priest does more than 100 damage per hit with that dark greatsword. Too bad I cannot do Bleak walker/Berath priest :/

 

Edit: and Skaen priest's apprentice sneak attack stack with rogue sneak attack, so a Skaen Priest/Rogue would work too, and it has club/stiletto spiritual weapons.

 

Yeah, the Priest ones seem better. I was wondering about the Skaenite Priest's sneak attack stacking with the Rogue's. That's interesting.

[MaxQuest]

It seems to me that these spells are much less powerful than they were in PoE. What are peoples' thoughts on them?

The same. Compared to PoE1 they are very weak.

 

Concelhaut's Staff and Firebrand were especially dissapointing. No one is going to spend an ability point + spell slot + 6s of casting to just summon a basically mundane staff / great sword.

 

As was already mentioned, in PoE1 these had much higher base damage. Plus their summoning was a fast cast followed by no recovery. That's 0.966s at 10 DEX. Not to mention that summoning weapons from items (like Firebrand from Forgemaster gloves) was even faster, basically instant.

 

Unrelated to their effectiveness, who would like to see some summonable single handed weapons or shields? Also who feels the new graphics for Citzal's Spirit Lance are a downgrade?

Yes to both questions.

[Juodas Varnas]

 

It seems to me that these spells are much less powerful than they were in PoE. What are peoples' thoughts on them?

The same. Compared to PoE1 they are very weak.

 

Concelhaut's Staff and Firebrand were especially dissapointing. No one is going to spend an ability point + spell slot + 6s of casting to just summon a basically mundane staff / great sword.

 

As was already mentioned, in PoE1 these had much higher base damage. Plus their summoning was a fast cast followed by no recovery. That's 0.966s at 10 DEX. Not to mention that summoning weapons from items (like Firebrand from Forgemaster gloves) was even faster, basically instant.

 

Well, Priests of Eothas won't be given a choice not to get the Firebrand.

I'm really hoping that gets changed, because i really feel that the Firebrand doesn't fit the class entirely (especially since Eothas is all about Flails and Morning Stars, so here - take a giant bloody sword)

If anything Firebrand seems more like a Magran thing (but that could be just me having Durance always run around with the forgemaster's gloves)

[JerekKruger]

A bit of testing tells me that the quality enchantment on these weapons scales with every two power levels, so for levels 1-4 it's normal, 5-8 it's fine, 9-12 it's exceptional. This perhaps suggests that they max out at Legendary which, if Legendary items are rare in game might make them a little more appealing at high level.

 

Also it seems that all the Priest summonables get a 60% Corrode lash. I hope that at release the type of lash varies with each deity (e.g. Eothas and Magran should have burning).

[JerekKruger]

If anything Firebrand seems more like a Magran thing (but that could be just me having Durance always run around with the forgemaster's gloves)

 

No I thought the same. Magran is the god of fire so having her priests able to summon a flaming sword seems fitting. Obsidian should drop the specification that Eothasians get elemental druid spells and Magranites get fire based Wizard spells and just say both get a selection of spells from other casters.

[Boeroer]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't also the base damage scale with Concenhaut's Staff? I had the impression. I didn't look at it very closely though because I immediately cast it away when I realized that the weapon is bugged (no draining).

 

Besides the scaling quality the priest weapons' lashes seem to be determined by power level as well if I see it right...? With a Nature Godlike (+2 Power level) I got +62% lash instead of 60% at lvl 6. So maybe it's a flat X% + 1% per power level?

Edited December 6, 2017 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

How much does power level increase for specialist Wizards? +1?

[JerekKruger]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't also the base damage scale with Concenhaut's Staff? I has the impression. I didn't look at it very closely though because I immediately cast it away when I realized that the weapon is bugged (no draining).

 

Just tested it with Concelhaut's Staff and no, the damage doesn't scale. I used a Nature Godlike Conjurer to test this:

• At level 1 (power level 2 for Conjuration spells) the staff does 19-25 damage.
• At level 2 the staff still does 19-25 damage (as expected since the power level hasn't changed). However if you cast Fleet Feet to activate Wellspring of Life (raising your power level to 4 with Conjuration spells) the damage remains at 19-25. This happens both if you cast Concelhaut's Staff before and after Fleet Feet.
• The same happens at level 3, so it seems the bonus power levels from Wellspring of life and the Conjurer subclass aren't being applied to Concelhaut's Staff at all.
• Once you pass levels 4 and 9 the staff gains Fine and Exceptional and hence gains +15% and +30% damage respectively, however it doesn't gain any damage beyond these.

Besides the scaling quality the priest weapons' lashes seem to be determined by power level as well if I see it right...? With a Nature Godlike (+2 Power level) I got +62% lash instead of 60% at lvl 6. So maybe it's a flat X% + 1% per power level?

 

I haven't tested this but at level 6 your power level should be 5 with Wellspring of Life so +2% seems like a strange bonus. Possibly a bug?

Edited December 6, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Boeroer]

Maybe. I also wondered where the 2% came from.

[JerekKruger]

How much does power level increase for specialist Wizards? +1?

 

Yep. To be fair, if the scaling for summoned weapons continues in with the same pattern as in the beta (beyond level 9) then this would allow a Conjurer's summoned weapons to hit Mythic quality (power level 11) rather than being limited to Legendary (power level 10), and a Nature Godlike Conjurer could theoretically hit the next quality up at power level 13 (Divine?).

 

That said, as far as I can tell the bonuses from Wellspring and the Conjurer subclass aren't currently being applied to summoned Wizard weapons.

[AndreaColombo]

Interesting. Thank you for checking, JerekKruger.

 

The bonus from Conjurer not applying to summoned weapons, which are AFAIK Conjuration spells, is probably a bug. Likewise with Wellspring of Life, which should apply to all spells and abilities. It’s probably worth reporting it to get visibility with QA.

[JerekKruger]

The bonus from Conjurer not applying to summoned weapons, which are AFAIK Conjuration spells, is probably a bug. Likewise with Wellspring of Life, which should apply to all spells and abilities. It’s probably worth reporting it to get visibility with QA.

 

I've done just that

[JerekKruger]

So apparently summoned weapon Accuracy, Damage and Penetration bonuses only scale with character level and not power level. Power level affects the duration but nothing else. The stated reason is to avoid summoned weapons being weaker for multiclass characters.

 

This seems like an odd choice to me. Firstly, surely a dedicated Wizard should be better at summoning magical weapons than a multiclassed one. Secondly this seems to make the Conjurer's bonus power level a lot weaker since it does almost nothing for those spells (at power level 3 Parasitic Staff already have a long duration, I don't need it to be super long at level 10).

[AndreaColombo]

Also who feels the new graphics for Citzal's Spirit Lance are a downgrade?

 

I believe that's a placeholder VFX (same thing with Firebrand.)

 

If you look at Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff, it looks very good with the smoldering head and the funky smoke VFX trailing as you walk. By contrast, both Firebrand and Citzal's Spirit Lance are very bare bones VFX with no "solid" weapon behind them. They look ... unfinished, which they probably are. Let's see what comes of them in the upcoming beta updates.

[JerekKruger]

I believe that's a placeholder VFX (same thing with Firebrand.)

 

If you look at Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff, it looks very good with the smoldering head and the funky smoke VFX trailing as you walk. By contrast, both Firebrand and Citzal's Spirit Lance are very bare bones VFX with no "solid" weapon behind them. They look ... unfinished, which they probably are. Let's see what comes of them in the upcoming beta updates.

 

I hope so, and you're probably right. Concelhaut's Staff looks great, a big improvement over PoE's model, so hopefully what we've currently got for Citzal's Lance and Firebrand are just the VFX for them and the physical model will come later.

 

This is also supported by the Priest summons, or at least the Priest of Magran's sword and pistol (I haven't checked all of them). These are, as far as I can tell, simply the same model as a normal sword and pistol so probably placeholders.

[Gromnir]

so the summoned weapons ain't clear superior to the kinda weapons a typical party is likely to be equipping themselves with? instead you got weapons with same damage as the base weapon being replicated, in addition to unique qualities such as the burn/pierce for firebrand or the draining o' concelhaut's staff (pointing out how the staff is current bugged and not draining is hardly relevant.) as well as scaling quality (i.e. fine-legendary.)

 

...

 

what's the problem? 

 

in poe, with certain builds, the forgemaster glove's firebrand were ridiculous op.  in the hands o' a druid, the poe firebrand were mere highly effective.  what made the firebrand wacky powerful were it's use by barbarians or paladins or whatever build somebody concocted to take advantage o' the firebrands enormous base burn damage.

 

in poe, all summoned weapons is now subject to the same silliness as were resulting from forgemaster gloves, 'cause now there is multiclassing.  high base damage for poe summoned weapons were no doubt meant to balance out the lack o' weapon damage powhaz inherent to the caster classes.  didn't work exact as planned 'cause o' eventual talent bloat, but the summoned weapons in the hands o' casters were not as powerful as they woulda' been if wielded by other classes with more dedicated weapon powhaz. deadfire multiclassing necessitated a change to summoned weapons. gotta balance citzal's lance not only for a wizard but for a frenzied berzerker under the influence o' infuse with vital essence, eldritch aim, and deleterious alacrity, who then unleashes his brutal blow power. 

 

summoned weapons aren't clear superior to weapons a party is likely to find as they adventure in the deadfire? good.  however, am thinking jk actual has the potential problem reversed, 'cause at the moment summoned weapons will be able to maintain a rough parity with 1007 weapons for levels we has seen.  legendary quality draining staff won't mean much when the weapon alternatives for a level 18 warlock will be similar legendary weapons with multiple unique powers. the draining staff will become only situational useful, and given the more limited spell repertoire o' casters, situational useful is not a wise choice for a spell slot. is similar to the poe monk problem regarding fists.  regardless o' monk fist scaling, it were better for a monk to equip a weapon in the later portions o' poe. will be a similar issue for concelhaut's staff, unless the staff gain's additional powhaz as well as quality.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[JerekKruger]

so the summoned weapons ain't clear superior to the kinda weapons a typical party is likely to be equipping themselves with? instead you got weapons with same damage as the base weapon being replicated, in addition to unique qualities such as the burn/pierce for firebrand or the draining o' concelhaut's staff (pointing out how the staff is current bugged and not draining is hardly relevant.) as well as scaling quality (i.e. fine-legendary.)

 

...

 

what's the problem? 

 

Why would I spend an ability point, one of my limited per encounter spell casts and the time taken to summon the weapon when I could simply use a non-summoned version that's just as good? That's the problem. 

 

in poe, with certain builds, the forgemaster glove's firebrand were ridiculous op.  in the hands o' a druid, the poe firebrand were mere highly effective.  what made the firebrand wacky powerful were it's use by barbarians or paladins or whatever build somebody concocted to take advantage o' the firebrands enormous base burn damage.

 

In the hands of a druid firebrand was nowhere near highly effective. In fact it was pretty bad.

 

In the hands of a martial class it became good, though it wasn't going to outperform something like Tidefall.

 

Only in the hands of a Barbarian was it ridiculously overpowered, but the thing that made it so has already been fixed in Deadfire, namely that Carnage attacks don't use the damage of the base attack anymore, they simply do a scaled amount of raw damage (this also means they don't proc on hit effects).

 

EDIT: also the fact that summoned weapons will be more useful to, say, a Wizard/Devoted is precisely why I think they should scale with the Wizard's power level rather than character level. It'll take longer to get them to fine, exceptional etc., and they may never reach the maximum tier of enchantment.

Edited December 8, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Gromnir]

the poe druid with  appropriate talents were quite effective with a firebrand.  any weapon focus, 2h weapon talent, scion of flame, savage attacks ('cause by late in the game, accuracy bloat were ez to achieve) could make almost any class see considerable benefit from the firebrand.  even so, you are arguing Gromnir's point w/o realizing.  thanks.  the poe firebrand were not cause for concern in the hands o' the caster class which summoned.  were only an issue with other classes such as barbarian, rogue and paladin.  is precise why deadfire is different.

 

 

and again, your identification o' the problem is all bassackwards and reversed.  particular at lower levels when you ain't gonna have a plethora o' 1007ed magical weapons in your inventory, being able to summon a scaling weapon with an additional quality is a significant advantage to overall party power. earlier in the game when you don't have many options for equipping your party, the summoned weapons is a nice alternative, and it means another party member can wield one o' the few shiny weapons you possess.  makes your party stronger if the warlock not need equip the party's best magic weapon... give to rogue or fighter instead. and as between a fine flail and the spiritual weapon for priests o' eothas, our level 6-9 beta templar summons the flail almost every battle, and am not regretting the time to cast as the duration for spiritual weapons (firebrand has an even longer duration) is almost 1 minute with our high intellect. am less likely to use firebrand, but against foes with particular poor burn armour, the firebrand is equal impressive.

 

but again, the actual problem for deadfire summoned weapons is high levels.  the summoned weapons is good alternatives at lower levels, but scaling quality ain't enough to compensate for the use o' limited spell slots.

 

oh and compare firebrand to tidefall reveals the wacky pov you got.  tidefall were the best great sword in the base game. were superb quality and possessed multiple beneficial qualities.  firebrand, on the other hand, were a universal weapon, summoned by a second level druid spell... available at level 3.  hypothetical hiravias with peasant weapon focus would get weapon focus benefits for the firebrand. forgemaster gloves, which were a 3-per-rest item, were available cheap as soon as you reached defiance bay. poe firebrand also did big burn damage-- foes with high resistance to crush/pierce/slash were frequent weaker to burn. firebrand were an impressive weapon and were situationally dominating, but compare to the best great sword in the game and find it lacking?  HA!

 

with all the multiclass combinations, increasing the base damage o' summoned weapons seems ill-advised.  is no reason summoned weapons should be clear superior to equippable alternatives.  there will be times when the summoned provide advantages to equipped, but folks looking for you-win talents/powhaz is exact what obsidian has been trying to avoid. 

 

however, we do foresee a problem at higher levels. am not doubting the +12 level warlock will respec out o' concelhaut's staff unless the staff scales more than simple quality.  is monk problem all over again.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps as we mentioned in other threads, we do believe some aspect o' universal should be returned to summoned weapons.  am not necessarily seeing need for proficiency being conferred with any universal, but for barbarian multiclasses with weapon focus or for devoted fighter penalties, we believe something akin to poe universal should apply.  

[JerekKruger]

 

I started to reply to your post Gromnir, but it's so full of misrepresentations of what I actually said in my own I really don't see the point.

[Gromnir]

 

I started to reply to your post Gromnir, but it's so full of misrepresentations of what I actually said in my own I really don't see the point.

"In the hands of a druid firebrand was nowhere near highly effective. In fact it was pretty bad."

 

yeah, complete misrepresentation.

 

*chuckle*

 

sometimes folks say silly things and not realize how silly such is 'til somebody else identifies.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps (edit) regardless o' jk's misrepresentations, the summoned weapons from poe allowed casters to, in conjunction with proper talent selections and spell layering, approach or exceed the martial power of other classes.  to maintain the same dynamic in deadfire, wherein multiclass selection allows for a plethora o' options for equalling or exceeding the weapon powha o' any single class, maintaining the superiority o' summoned weapons is  a highly suspect approach.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Gromnir