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Awesome game but lack of talents and low-synergy druid/monk

Balance talents progression druid monk

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#1
ArcZero

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First off, the dual class system is what I dreamed of while playing PoE1. This kind of thinking really blows the class system wide open. Being able to further specialize an ability like Smite to get another bonus is also a great choice.

 

I acknowledge and like how removing general talents makes individual classes more unique, but without those 30-40 general talents there really are so few options each level. Right now it feels like a 1:1 trade off with dual classing instead of talents; however, if some form of general talents were added, this system would be incredibly versatile. If there are more soulbound items than in PoE1 that allow a character to develop through items, that would also solve this lack of options. I love how the soulbound weapons invite you to pursue certain achievements in the game world.

 

Finally, a personal desire of mine: allow druid wildshape weapons (claws, etc.) to count as unarmed for the sake of being able to use the barbarian's weapon focus or the monk's transcendant suffering. I think creating an unarmed weapon proficiency is all that's needed to rectify this. I love the shifter subclass but a multiclass druid misses out on many of the martial classes' accuracy/defense increases. A multiclass monk also finds itself lacking synergy.


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#2
AndreaColombo

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I agree there should be an unarmed proficiency, but not that Transcendent Suffering should work with Spiritshift—it would make it ridiculously powerful.

Monk/Druid builds focused on Spiritshift are really strong and synergize really well. You can make an excellent Thundercat with a Nature Godlike Helwalker/Lifegiver.

#3
ArcZero

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Cheesing Wellspring of Life and lifegiver seems to be the main way people are doing that. It gets you stupid amounts of healing and DR but I suppose I just want the satisfaction of knowing a monk's expertise in unarmed contributes to spiritshift somehow. The damage on spiritshift is pretty good without transcendent suffering but I think it lacks in the accuracy department, which is my main gripe for barbarian, fighter and anything else you combine druid with. Also, both druid and monk have very few talents and they share the three defense talents which gives you next to no options.

 

It looks like they are going to fix the proficiency issue though and manually toggling between forms as a shifter is pretty awesome.



#4
vanyel54

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The druid's claw were a bit OP in POE1. I like it sure  :yes: but i could understand the need for a little nerf.



#5
Lephys

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Just a thought... maybe Transcendent Suffering could work in a limited capacity with spiritshift? Like... 50% for example? This kind of makes sense, since being a multiclass druid/monk sort of makes you half (I know it's not perfectly 50%, but still) monk. *shrug*



#6
Gromnir

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general observation:

 

whatever else deadfire fails at, a lack o' synergies is not one o' them.  monks, in particular, is providing a dizzying array o' possibilities... particular with shattered pillar and helwaker subclasses. the lack o' unarmed proficiency is understandable given how borderline op a few monk builds is already.  a helwalker sage who takes eldritch aim, infuse with vital essence, mirrored image, and eventual takes stuff such as ironskin, llengraths safeguard and citzal's(sp?) spirit lance is gonna be an absolute dps terror on the battlefield. converse, a paladin or unbroken fighter combined with shattered pillar is having amazing potential as an off-tank or even main tank.

 

in addition to the 'bove, have personal combined and tested monks with rogue, barbarian and cipher as well as our personal most tested multiclass: the contemplative.

 

am thinking folks has not had enough time to realize just how many options deadfire makes possible, which makes sense given how little time the relative small number of beta testers has actual had with deadfire. too many conclusions.

 

HA! Good Fun!



#7
AndreaColombo

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Cheesing Wellspring of Life and lifegiver seems to be the main way people are doing that. It gets you stupid amounts of healing and DR

 

It's not the only thing. You could make a perfect Thundercat using a regular Druid instead of the Lifegiver, but since you're going to use Rejuvenation spells anyway to trigger Wellspring of Life, it's well worth milking them to the utmost extent.

 

A multiclass character is always 2 power levels behind its single-classed counterparts, which is what makes Spiritshift comparatively weaker on a multi. Enter Wellspring of Life with its +2 to power level and your claws are on par with those of a single-class Druid, with all the bells and whistles of a Monk. You can pump Perception for Accuracy and I don't think you'll feel like it leaves much to be desired.


Edited by AndreaColombo, 01 December 2017 - 12:29 PM.


#8
cheesevillain

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Transcendent suffering is only meant to make fists, normally a terrible weapon, on par with other types of melee weapons. If it doesn't stack with other weapons, I don't see why it would stack with shapeshifter strikes.

 

There's a TON of synergy between monks and druids.



#9
dunehunter

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general observation:

 

whatever else deadfire fails at, a lack o' synergies is not one o' them.  monks, in particular, is providing a dizzying array o' possibilities... particular with shattered pillar and helwaker subclasses. the lack o' unarmed proficiency is understandable given how borderline op a few monk builds is already.  a helwalker sage who takes eldritch aim, infuse with vital essence, mirrored image, and eventual takes stuff such as ironskin, llengraths safeguard and citzal's(sp?) spirit lance is gonna be an absolute dps terror on the battlefield. converse, a paladin or unbroken fighter combined with shattered pillar is having amazing potential as an off-tank or even main tank.

 

in addition to the 'bove, have personal combined and tested monks with rogue, barbarian and cipher as well as our personal most tested multiclass: the contemplative.

 

am thinking folks has not had enough time to realize just how many options deadfire makes possible, which makes sense given how little time the relative small number of beta testers has actual had with deadfire. too many conclusions.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Agree with Gromnir here, 'monks, in particular, is providing a dizzying array o' possibilities'. Monk is one of the rare class that can synergy with almost all other classes because it's superior and diversity abilities.

 

Not to mention Monk has two totally different subclass Helwalker and Shattered Pillar which expand its possibility of multiclass choices.


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#10
ArcZero

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Many good points here. Yes I will max perception for monks. Toying around with monk more, I am really starting to appreciate their abilities but I still find their talents lacking.

 

Not sure if it was a bug but when Wellspring of life was active, I saw absolutely no changes in the stats of spiritshift weapons (though it worked for transcendent suffering), so wellspring of life really didn't suit my needs. Being a level 6 single class druid for that matter still had just the +4 accuracy and 15% damage bonus on their weapons. I saw no scaling at all.

 

whatever else deadfire fails at, a lack o' synergies is not one o' them. 

 

There are certainly many combos to consider and I have only scratched the surface of the system. I am stubborn and want to make a tanky, martial druid that almost totally eschews its spellcasting. For this same reason I had no interest in playing POE1 druid who seemed to be all spellcaster with no interesting melee talents or abilities. In this case I have fallen in love with D&D 5th edition druid and the tankiness wildshape gives it. There are almost no video games that really do shapeshifting justice and I am loathe to touch World of Warcraft anymore.

 

Perhaps veteran difficulty with all level scaling enabled is just too brutal xD Every substantial fight kills all but the tankiest characters in a matter of seconds. Druid/Goldpact Paladin actually does a good job of surviving and golden wildshape is hilarious.



#11
OlleDenStore

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If you want wildshape to stack with trancendent suffering I'm pretty sure you will be able to mod it in. The cipher power reaping knives used to stack with trans. and novice suffering in POE1 before it was patched. I thought it was really cool so I modded it back in :) It was simply a matter of opening the file for the summoned weapon and setting the variable for attack type to the value corresponding to unarmed I think.  



#12
Tanos

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You should try multiclassing 2 casters and it might change your perspective. The only synergy between the 2 classes will be buffs and debuffs since spells are only affected by (outside of attributes) powerlevel, which by the way is lower than a pure caster. Add to that the fact that the casts will also be of a lower spell level and you will have a multiclass that suffers from low synergy.


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#13
dunehunter

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You should try multiclassing 2 casters and it might change your perspective. The only synergy between the 2 classes will be buffs and debuffs since spells are only affected by (outside of attributes) powerlevel, which by the way is lower than a pure caster. Add to that the fact that the casts will also be of a lower spell level and you will have a multiclass that suffers from low synergy.

 

Yeah it is true. But same as bg2, a mage/cleric is weak in the beginning of the game, but become much more powerful after you get enough spells and spell sequencer/spell triggers to work for cleric spells.

 

I feel in Deadfire if you want to play a caster, it's better to single class it.



#14
SaruNi

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You should try multiclassing 2 casters and it might change your perspective. The only synergy between the 2 classes will be buffs and debuffs since spells are only affected by (outside of attributes) powerlevel, which by the way is lower than a pure caster. Add to that the fact that the casts will also be of a lower spell level and you will have a multiclass that suffers from low synergy.

 

For most damaging spells, multiclassing translates to 0.5 less penetration (0.25 per power level). No effect on base damage (with the notable exception of Soul Ignition which has 0 penetration but a significant % damage boost). It only has an effect if you're right near the threshold where pen = AR or pen = 2*AR... and it's functionally equivalent to reducing AR or boosting penetration through buffs/debuffs (which grant much larger bonuses/maluses).

 

Edit: power levels have additional effects, some of which aren't listed in the UI. Detailed here:

https://forums.obsid...l/#entry1960512


Edited by SaruNi, 05 December 2017 - 03:17 PM.


#15
theBalthazar

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For me, Synergy is important.

 

I mean : you take an option, your creativity must be rewarded...

 

Druid + Monk is a good idea.

 

Now. If it is OP, why not divided / 2 the bonus of monk when spiritshift ? You GAIN a bonus, a reward for your good asociation but, with a malus. ( /2 round to up)

 

After all, you don't have this nerf for a devoted / berserker... You can use all the stuff for your 2 classes.

 

Feeling of Synergy > perfect balancing for me. (There is already top tiers)

 

The only thing is boost classes in trash tiers, but you can't balance perfectly a game with multiclass. You can do a good job (only top tiers / mid tiers and no low/trash tiers for exemple) But there always will have a difference of efficiency.


Edited by theBalthazar, 06 December 2017 - 02:34 AM.


#16
prototype00

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I have to say I was looking forward to the Druid/monk. I too lament the lack of synergy but it is what it is. For preference I think I will proceed with a Monk (Shattered Pillar)/Cipher (Soulblade) instead, which I hear has full synergy with their effects.

#17
Tanos

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You should try multiclassing 2 casters and it might change your perspective. The only synergy between the 2 classes will be buffs and debuffs since spells are only affected by (outside of attributes) powerlevel, which by the way is lower than a pure caster. Add to that the fact that the casts will also be of a lower spell level and you will have a multiclass that suffers from low synergy.

 

For most damaging spells, multiclassing translates to 0.5 less penetration (0.25 per power level). No effect on base damage (with the notable exception of Soul Ignition which has 0 penetration but a significant % damage boost). It only has an effect if you're right near the threshold where pen = AR or pen = 2*AR... and it's functionally equivalent to reducing AR or boosting penetration through buffs/debuffs (which grant much larger bonuses/maluses).

 

Edit: power levels have additional effects, some of which aren't listed in the UI. Detailed here:

https://forums.obsid...l/#entry1960512

 

Hey thanks for the info, powerlevels is still quite obfuscated so it's nice learn some more on the mechanic. However, does the statement of multiclassing 2 spellcasters not synergize well not hold true if the impact of the loss of spellevels is smaller? The point i was trying to make was that this combo does not only does not synergize but is actually counterproductive of each individual class. This due to the reliance of spells which has no synergy between classes at all.



#18
SaruNi

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You should try multiclassing 2 casters and it might change your perspective. The only synergy between the 2 classes will be buffs and debuffs since spells are only affected by (outside of attributes) powerlevel, which by the way is lower than a pure caster. Add to that the fact that the casts will also be of a lower spell level and you will have a multiclass that suffers from low synergy.

 

For most damaging spells, multiclassing translates to 0.5 less penetration (0.25 per power level). No effect on base damage (with the notable exception of Soul Ignition which has 0 penetration but a significant % damage boost). It only has an effect if you're right near the threshold where pen = AR or pen = 2*AR... and it's functionally equivalent to reducing AR or boosting penetration through buffs/debuffs (which grant much larger bonuses/maluses).

 

Edit: power levels have additional effects, some of which aren't listed in the UI. Detailed here:

https://forums.obsid...l/#entry1960512

 

Hey thanks for the info, powerlevels is still quite obfuscated so it's nice learn some more on the mechanic. However, does the statement of multiclassing 2 spellcasters not synergize well not hold true if the impact of the loss of spellevels is smaller? The point i was trying to make was that this combo does not only does not synergize but is actually counterproductive of each individual class. This due to the reliance of spells which has no synergy between classes at all.

 

 

Wizards/Priests/Druids are limited to at most 2 casts per level per class per encounter. Overall, multi-classing seems to give you one extra cast per encounter... a slight benefit. 

 

Sure, spells would almost always work better with two casters rather than one, with the exception of self-only buffs. Most of the subclass bonuses only apply to spells from that class (Druid Fury's penetration bonus only applies to Druid elemental spells... although Wildstrike elemental bonuses do apply to all). But the Wizard self-only buffs are really good. So's Spiritshift Cat Form (+33% speed, stacks with Dexterity Inspirations like Wizard's) and the "radius of caster" druid and priest spells. Priests also have the summoned weapon with the long casting time that's otherwise pretty good... and you could technically speed up the casting time by multiclassing Wizard or maybe Cat druid, though I'm not sure what happens if you summon a weapon while spiritshifted....


Edited by SaruNi, 06 December 2017 - 10:22 AM.


#19
Tanos

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Wizards/Priests/Druids are limited to at most 2 casts per level per class per encounter. Overall, multi-classing seems to give you one extra cast per encounter... a slight benefit. 

 

Sure, spells would almost always work better with two casters rather than one, with the exception of self-only buffs. Most of the subclass bonuses only apply to spells from that class (Druid Fury's penetration bonus only applies to Druid elemental spells... although Wildstrike elemental bonuses do apply to all). But the Wizard self-only buffs are really good. So's Spiritshift Cat Form (+33% speed, stacks with Dexterity Inspirations like Wizard's) and the "radius of caster" druid and priest spells. Priests also have the summoned weapon with the long casting time that's otherwise pretty good... and you could technically speed up the casting time by multiclassing Wizard or maybe Cat druid, though I'm not sure what happens if you summon a weapon while spiritshifted....

 

Yeah druids will probably be the most viable dual caster class due to its martial abilities that can synergize with buffs. Priest/wizard or multidruid multi classing druids that does not want to focus on physical attacks in spirit form will have a harder time though. Iam begining to lean on multiclassed casters having fewer class resources (ie. fewer spells per encounter) rather than having lower spell levels on their casts since then you won't have to worry about the spell synergy. However, if there are some super powerful self buffs there will probably be some crazy class synergy between a physical and caster class that might end up too powerful, which would be a major risk with this approach. Still if the objective is to make every kind of character viable this might be the best approach.



#20
SaruNi

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Wizards/Priests/Druids are limited to at most 2 casts per level per class per encounter. Overall, multi-classing seems to give you one extra cast per encounter... a slight benefit. 

 

Sure, spells would almost always work better with two casters rather than one, with the exception of self-only buffs. Most of the subclass bonuses only apply to spells from that class (Druid Fury's penetration bonus only applies to Druid elemental spells... although Wildstrike elemental bonuses do apply to all). But the Wizard self-only buffs are really good. So's Spiritshift Cat Form (+33% speed, stacks with Dexterity Inspirations like Wizard's) and the "radius of caster" druid and priest spells. Priests also have the summoned weapon with the long casting time that's otherwise pretty good... and you could technically speed up the casting time by multiclassing Wizard or maybe Cat druid, though I'm not sure what happens if you summon a weapon while spiritshifted....

 

Yeah druids will probably be the most viable dual caster class due to its martial abilities that can synergize with buffs. Priest/wizard or multidruid multi classing druids that does not want to focus on physical attacks in spirit form will have a harder time though. Iam begining to lean on multiclassed casters having fewer class resources (ie. fewer spells per encounter) rather than having lower spell levels on their casts since then you won't have to worry about the spell synergy. However, if there are some super powerful self buffs there will probably be some crazy class synergy between a physical and caster class that might end up too powerful, which would be a major risk with this approach. Still if the objective is to make every kind of character viable this might be the best approach.

 

 

Currently spells have two major limitations:

- Most spells have slow casting speed

- They tend to miss (usually Accuracy vs. Fortitude/Reflex/Will) and most can't graze (though some long-casts like Fireball can)

 

So buffs which improve casting speed and don't take long to cast are very useful. Cat Druid Flurry = instant +33% speed, Wizard Fleet Feet quick cast 0 recovery +5 dex = +15% speed that stacks with the Cat Druid bonus.

 

Wizards have Eldritch Aim to help with Accuracy (and grant grazing for all spells).

 

There are very few fast cast damaging spells, and they're all level 1 or 2. Single class Wizard has maximum 2 (or 4 if you count Grimoire Slam) per encounter, single class Druid has 2 / encounter, multi-class has 4 to 6....

 

Likewise, most of the Priest subclasses get either some Wizard or some Druid spells... so if you multiclass, you could get 2 priest casts of the spell and 2 wizard/druid casts of the same spell per encounter.


Edited by SaruNi, 06 December 2017 - 01:35 PM.






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