How does the new Resolve resolve anything? :)

[KDubya]

The current system has a limited use for Resolve.

 

Fact and in another long thread many came up with having Resolve affect the duration of afflictions, higher lets you shrug them off, lower makes you suffer longer. It might not have been a great reason to pump it but it'd punish you for dumping it.

 

The current system had you pumping Might for more damage/healing from all sources. Easy to understand and easy to build for. Your Wizard who hurls more powerful fireballs also does better with a wand, or a summoned weapon or whatever. Your Cipher who pumps Might does more damage with weapons and spells. Might was useful to most every build but still needed to be balanced with your other stat choices. A very elegant system and a much appreciated improvement on the old DnD system.

 

So to address the issue of Resolve not being that useful the Devs decide to split spell casting from Might and add it to Resolve. 

 

In the words of Deadpool "What the actual #@&%!!"

 

Now instead of having one marginally useful stat you have two. Classes who don't cast can dump one and classes that don't weapon attack can dump the other. Classes that do both take it in the shorts. But since resolve adds to deflection, healing and spell damage the bonus/malus of increasing/decreasing it is much more than the same as Strength since it only affects weapon damage.

 

Hopefully in the following Beta update it can be rolled back or something based on our play testing.

Edited November 30, 2017 by KDubya

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I don't know that there's a need for another thread on this given the prior resolve thread, but to answer your question:

 

As I understand it, the goal isn't so much "no bad builds" or "no dump stats" as it is making sure that any given build concept will be buildable -- if you want to build a muscle wizard or a resolve fighter or whatever, there should be a way to make it work; there's no stat that's completely useless for any class.

 

So, what this does is make it so you can build a weapon focused (wizard, priest, mage, fighter) or a spell focused (wizard, priest, mage, fighter [using scrolls]), etc. 

 

So theoretically that's the problem it solves.

 

The problem is it does so by creating the bigger problem of "hybrid builds and classes are boned."

[Gromnir]

 

 

The problem is it does so by creating the bigger problem of "hybrid builds and classes are boned."

disagree.  the builds you describe as being "boned" is the builds which is responding to the changes as intended.  stat choices should be painful.  the intention were/is to make all stats useful to a build, so lowering a stat should have an obvious cost.  so, good on being boned.

 

however, am admitting pure casters have simple flipped one dump stat for another... while gaining the benefit of increased deflection.  also, support tanks is gonna benefit as well, particular paladins and paladin hybrids.  paladin tanks were already likely to have middling might so they could boost resolve which only benefited deflection.  the payoff for a paladin tank boosting resolve will now go far beyond deflection as all those healing and non-weapon talents will be receiving significant boosts.

 

can fix other classes on an ad hoc basis... but fact some classes is "boned" is part o' the solution rather than the problem. oh, and is easy to fix the caster deflection issue by lowering base deflection to barbarian levels.  huzzah.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[KDubya]

 

 

 

The problem is it does so by creating the bigger problem of "hybrid builds and classes are boned."

disagree.  the builds you describe as being "boned" is the builds which is responding to the changes as intended.  stat choices should be painful.  the intention were/is to make all stats useful to a build, so lowering a stat should have an obvious cost.  so, good on being boned.

 

however, am admitting pure casters have simple flipped one dump stat for another... while gaining the benefit of increased deflection.  also, support tanks is gonna benefit as well, particular paladins and paladin hybrids.  paladin tanks were already likely to have middling might so they could boost resolve which only benefited deflection.  the payoff for a paladin tank boosting resolve will now go far beyond deflection as all those healing and non-weapon talents will be receiving significant boosts.

 

can fix other classes on an ad hoc basis... but fact some classes is "boned" is part o' the solution rather than the problem. oh, and is easy to fix the caster deflection issue by lowering base deflection to barbarian levels.  huzzah.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Keeping the current system, though flawed, still has less problems with it than the new proposed system. They 'solved' one problem by adding ten other problems.

 

Regarding you support Paladin; in the current system what was the problem?

 

You wanted Might, Intellect and Resolve. That got you tanky, good healing and good melee damage. New system you could go the same route with Strength, Intellect and Resolve and get the same things. Or you could leave Strength at base or lower and save those points for pumping something else. Seems like the new system just rewards you for min-maxing more which seems contrary to design goals.

 

For every example like your Support Paladin that prospers under the new system there are lots of examples of classes that get gutted like Ciphers or any hybrid weapon user who has heals or spells. 

 

Again why make the change if it just makes for a different problem while leaving the original problem untouched? 

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

 

The problem is it does so by creating the bigger problem of "hybrid builds and classes are boned."

disagree.  the builds you describe as being "boned" is the builds which is responding to the changes as intended.  stat choices should be painful.  the intention were/is to make all stats useful to a build, so lowering a stat should have an obvious cost.  so, good on being boned.

 

however, am admitting pure casters have simple flipped one dump stat for another... while gaining the benefit of increased deflection.  also, support tanks is gonna benefit as well, particular paladins and paladin hybrids.  paladin tanks were already likely to have middling might so they could boost resolve which only benefited deflection.  the payoff for a paladin tank boosting resolve will now go far beyond deflection as all those healing and non-weapon talents will be receiving significant boosts.

 

can fix other classes on an ad hoc basis... but fact some classes is "boned" is part o' the solution rather than the problem. oh, and is easy to fix the caster deflection issue by lowering base deflection to barbarian levels.  huzzah.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Keeping the current system, though flawed, still has less problems with it than the new proposed system. They 'solved' one problem by adding ten other problems.

 

Regarding you support Paladin; in the current system what was the problem?

 

You wanted Might, Intellect and Resolve. That got you tanky, good healing and good melee damage. New system you could go the same route with Strength, Intellect and Resolve and get the same things. Or you could leave Strength at base or lower and save those points for pumping something else. Seems like the new system just rewards you for min-maxing more which seems contrary to design goals.

 

For every example like your Support Paladin that prospers under the new system there are lots of examples of classes that get gutted like Ciphers or any hybrid weapon user who has heals or spells. 

 

Again why make the change if it just makes for a different problem while leaving the original problem untouched? 

 

again, you got reversed.  gutted is the solution.  the problem is pure casters who has simple reversed dump stats and gained deflection, and support paladins, who while already powerful and not needing a power boost, is gonna get a serious boost to their talents save for fod and similar weapon talents.

 

the pure caster problem is easily fixed. 

 

*shrug*

 

is a step in the right direction.  if all builds were gutted and/or boned, then the system would be working as original intended.  fact so many is boned/gutted is good.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am suspecting the obsidians is aware they cannot achieve universal boned/gutted.  while such ubiquitous ability point anguish ain't possible, even if it is desirable, the developers has functional thrown in the towel insofar as achieving such a goal.  however, obsidian is attempting to make sure every class has the capacity to benefit from every stat.  yeah, a priest is not gonna get much use from might... unless they focus their efforts 'pon maximizing summoned weapons.  and a rogue needs resolve 'bout as much as Gromnir needs an eleventh toe... unless one builds a retaliation-tank rogue.  am thinking the developers is aware that the admirable goal o' comprehensive boneage is improbable if not impossible.  however, the developers should gut as many builds as possible... where "gut" means nothing more than the build benefits from most/all stats.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Gromnir

[Boeroer]

If they would remove bonus deflection from RES now I could live with that change. Doesn't make a lot of sense anyhow that RES helps you deflecting things.

 

Maybe they could still include the idea that RES influences the durations of afflictions on you. I'd even say it should also influence the duration of inspirations on you.

[AndreaColombo]

If it affected the duration of Inspirations, maxing both INT and RES could potentially make them endless.

 

I don’t like the change. MIG was fine and having RES affect the duration of Afflictions felt like a better idea to be honest.

[Boeroer]

Why endless? Depends on how much it affects them. Doesn't need to be 5% per point. 

[theBalthazar]

For me, for balancing of the game,

 

Paladin / Druid / Cipher must gain a boost.

 

There are the most affected by this change.

 

And there was not among the killer classes (devoted / Berserker / Helwalker) to say 'no need' to boost.

 

So, it is not good for them atm...

[Ancelor]

just going to repost my thoughts from the other thread:

 

I never really liked that one stat was responsible for all sources of damage in a character.

Might meant that your character would be equally capable of landing a powerful blow with either his bare fists or by summoning a lightning bolt.

RP wise this never made any sense for me.

With this change now, though, resolve seems to be a very heavy stat as it includes anything a mage wants and the much required deflection for melee classes.

I’d either remove deflection from the attributes overall and assign it to just equipment. (From a mechanical point of view the most appropriate attribute for deflection is dexterity for me anyway).

Oh and anyway having dump stats is all but normal for me. There’s absolutely no reson for a battle hardened fighter to sharpen his intellect as a mandate to be more efficient in battle for example (unlike a battlemage).

[JerekKruger]

I don’t like the change. MIG was fine and having RES affect the duration of Afflictions felt like a better idea to be honest.

 

Agreed. I'd either go with affecting the duration of Afflictions or, as someone in the other thread suggested, separating out +Healing from Might and giving it to Resolve but leaving all +Damage with Might. 

[KDubya]

just going to repost my thoughts from the other thread:

 

I never really liked that one stat was responsible for all sources of damage in a character.

Might meant that your character would be equally capable of landing a powerful blow with either his bare fists or by summoning a lightning bolt.

RP wise this never made any sense for me.

With this change now, though, resolve seems to be a very heavy stat as it includes anything a mage wants and the much required deflection for melee classes.

I’d either remove deflection from the attributes overall and assign it to just equipment. (From a mechanical point of view the most appropriate attribute for deflection is dexterity for me anyway).

Oh and anyway having dump stats is all but normal for me. There’s absolutely no reson for a battle hardened fighter to sharpen his intellect as a mandate to be more efficient in battle for example (unlike a battlemage).

 

Fighters will need Resolve to make their Constant Recovery good, while currently that was covered by Might and Intellect for the duration

 

Everyone needs Intellect (maybe not Rogues?) to have a good duration on their buffs.

 

I think most of the complaints for roleplaying reasons of Might controlling spell damage could have been alleviated if in the dialogues there were two entries for Might. One could have you intimidate via picking up the table at the bar while another option could have been for you to conjure up a fireball to pass from hand to hand or something like that. Scripted scenes could have for the same Might a choice of you picking up a heavy door or you blasting it with a spell.

 

i think having Might stay as it is and having Resolve affect the duration of afflictions would work out a lot better. Everyone might not want to pump Resolve but you'd be punished for dumping it.

[Ancelor]

 

just going to repost my thoughts from the other thread:

 

I never really liked that one stat was responsible for all sources of damage in a character.

Might meant that your character would be equally capable of landing a powerful blow with either his bare fists or by summoning a lightning bolt.

RP wise this never made any sense for me.

With this change now, though, resolve seems to be a very heavy stat as it includes anything a mage wants and the much required deflection for melee classes.

I’d either remove deflection from the attributes overall and assign it to just equipment. (From a mechanical point of view the most appropriate attribute for deflection is dexterity for me anyway).

Oh and anyway having dump stats is all but normal for me. There’s absolutely no reson for a battle hardened fighter to sharpen his intellect as a mandate to be more efficient in battle for example (unlike a battlemage).

 

Fighters will need Resolve to make their Constant Recovery good, while currently that was covered by Might and Intellect for the duration

 

Everyone needs Intellect (maybe not Rogues?) to have a good duration on their buffs.

 

I think most of the complaints for roleplaying reasons of Might controlling spell damage could have been alleviated if in the dialogues there were two entries for Might. One could have you intimidate via picking up the table at the bar while another option could have been for you to conjure up a fireball to pass from hand to hand or something like that. Scripted scenes could have for the same Might a choice of you picking up a heavy door or you blasting it with a spell.

 

i think having Might stay as it is and having Resolve affect the duration of afflictions would work out a lot better. Everyone might not want to pump Resolve but you'd be punished for dumping it.

 

meh, I've made perfectly good Monks and Rangers without intellect too.

My beef now is that Resolve seems too important for different reasons.

It just affects too many things.

The affliction reduction is a great suggestion.

Removing deflection from attributes could work too I think.

[wolfstriked]

Take away resolves deflection? That is how I build my characters so that I can wear lighter armors and attack faster.This is not good!

[Katarack21]

Ciphers are *screwed*.

[fortuntek]

My two cents:

If primary goal is having stats useful for multiple viable builds within same class (as opposed to this "no bad builds" unicorn, and,

 

If this can be achieved while simultaneously not offending players sensibilities about what things stats should "logically" represent (remember the outcry when Might was first described?) then it should be so, but only if it makes sense mechanically as well.

 

So, Resolve as a stat that affects spell damage, I believe, meets both of these criteria well. I like the idea. As others have mentioned though, having it impact the duration of effects is appealing, but it is already affecting too many things (allegedly).

 

What would people think if Resolve affected spell damage, reduced affliction duration, and deflection be moved to a different stat or removed from stats? It would make casters more resistant to afflictions which seems weird, but honestly with the longer spell casting times casters need that advantage to not be utterly useless in short combat situations.

[fortuntek]

Maybe move deflection to Dex?

Edited November 29, 2017 by fortuntek

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

 

The problem is it does so by creating the bigger problem of "hybrid builds and classes are boned."

disagree.  the builds you describe as being "boned" is the builds which is responding to the changes as intended.  stat choices should be painful.  the intention were/is to make all stats useful to a build, so lowering a stat should have an obvious cost.  so, good on being boned.

 

 

 

Yeah, this is the core of the matter. I really like it when distributing stats is all about hard choices, down to single points up or down.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Yeah, this is the core of the matter. I really like it when distributing stats is all about hard choices, down to single points up or down.

 

 

 

 

This isn't "tough choices," it's "can't do the job." 

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Yeah, this is the core of the matter. I really like it when distributing stats is all about hard choices, down to single points up or down.

 

 

 

 

This isn't "tough choices," it's "can't do the job." 

 

Those cases need to be rectified, if that's the case. Can't do the job certainly sucks, like your example elsewhere with ciphers.

[theBalthazar]

disagree.  the builds you describe as being "boned" is the builds which is responding to the changes as intended.  stat choices should be painful.  the intention were/is to make all stats useful to a build, so lowering a stat should have an obvious cost.  so, good on being boned.

 

 

Frankly, Sawyer want so much control the viable/optimal point, it is impossible to miss a character, even with a 3 in recommended stat. In a general way.

 

So, it is not completely an argument in this situation.

 

But there is a very clear loss for paladins, druids and cipher. One can not deny it. A quantitative loss, you who love numbers at 18 Might :  24 % if you are focus on Spells side.

 

If I a am a druid, my spiritshift loss 24 % of Might. If I am a cipher I gain less -24 % focus each strike.

 

Or, you sacrifice an another stat to give Strength and Resolve, but the fact is here. It is not a problem, except for the...equity of each classes. Now I know Fighter + Barbarian is better. I min-max, I'm dodging resolve. But for Druid/paladin/cipher ? (single class!...) Impossible...

 

There is also a fairly dry loss for those who were going to be multiclass hybrid.

Edited November 29, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 stat choices should be painful.  the intention were/is to make all stats useful to a build, so lowering a stat should have an obvious cost.  so, good on being boned.

 

 

Frankly, Sawyer want so much control the viable/optimal point, it is impossible to miss a character, even with a 3 in recommended stat.

 

So, it is not completely an argument.

 

There is a very clear loss for paladins, druids and cipher. One can not deny it. A quantitative loss, you who love numbers at 18 Might :  24 % if you are focus on Spells side.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Gromnir's making a feelings argument in response to a mathematical issue.  

 

You could make every stat choice feel meaningful by taking away all the discretionary starting points so that if you wanted any stat higher than 10 you had to drop a different one down, too. Think of how hard the choices would be!

 

Wait, even better idea: only one ability point gained every other level. Half as many power choices! So much meaning felt!

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

But there is a very clear loss for paladins, druids and cipher. One can not deny it. A quantitative loss, you who love numbers at 18 Might :  24 % if you are focus on Spells side.

 

If I a am a druid, my spiritshift loss 24 % of Might. If I am a cipher I gain less -24 % focus each strike.

 

Or, you sacrifice an another stat to give Strength and Resolve, but the fact is here. It is not a problem, except for the...equity of each classes. Now I know Fighter + Barbarian is better. I min-max, I'm dodging resolve. But for Druid/paladin/cipher ? (single class!...) Impossible...

 

There is also a fairly dry loss for those who were going to be multiclass hybrid.

 

Alright, this is great to know. Just for comparison, I'd also like to know which single classes and multiclass combos gained from this.

I mean, does it all even out, despite certain classes and hybrids getting the short straw? Or did this change make it all a bit harder? If so, is that necessarily a bad thing?

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

Alright, this is great to know. Just for comparison, I'd also like to know which single classes and multiclass combos gained from this.

I mean, does it all even out, despite certain classes and hybrids getting the short straw? Or did this change make it all a bit harder? If so, is that necessarily a bad thing?

 

 

 

There are good posts breaking this down in the other thread. Basically it's different but not necessarily worse if you're a "pure" class like wizard or fighter, arguably an improvement for Paladins and perhaps to a lesser extent Priests, but it makes it impossible to build a spiritshift druid who is also effective with spells or a Cipher who emphasizes spell damage.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

Alright, this is great to know. Just for comparison, I'd also like to know which single classes and multiclass combos gained from this.

I mean, does it all even out, despite certain classes and hybrids getting the short straw? Or did this change make it all a bit harder? If so, is that necessarily a bad thing?

 

 

 

There are good posts breaking this down in the other thread. Basically it's different but not necessarily worse if you're a "pure" class like wizard or fighter, arguably an improvement for Paladins and perhaps to a lesser extent Priests, but it makes it impossible to build a spiritshift druid who is also effective with spells or a Cipher who emphasizes spell damage.

 

Thank you. So the stumbling block seems to be a number of hybrids, as well as much of cipher and druid in part? 

Perhaps you could add a "specific-hybride-unique" talent that you "must" take early on in the hybrids that really got boned this way.

Then cipher and druid need to get a few bones thrown at them as well.

It wouldn't be that hard to fix, no?