[Bug?] Not getting bonus damage from high Armor Penetration?

[AndreaColombo]

Looking at the combat log in this instance:

 

 

 

Wasn't I supposed to get 30% bonus damage for having more than twice as much penetration as my foe had armor rating?

[Boeroer]

Heh? Look at your combat log (the last frame down below, green markings from me) where it says 48.7 x 1.3:

 

I guess it's not in the list above because those are all additive while the multiplicative part comes after that down below.

So... what do you say now? 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

I am looking at that Damage calculation, and don't quite get how the system has arrived to the final number of 48.7:

 

22.9 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.18 + 0.15 + 0.15) = 22.9 * 1.98 = 45.342

 

Also, iirc crit modifier is references as critDamageMult in the game databundle and has the value of 1.25...(gonna double check it)

But even then: 22.9 * 1.25 * (1 + 0.18 + 0.15 + 0.15)) = 22.9 * 1.85 = 42.365

 

On a related note: how do you even get 18.5 here: image

Edited November 21, 2017 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

So... what do you say now? 

 

I'm a frackin' idiot XD

 

What about the bonus crit damage from being a Devoted?

 

I understand the subclass is currently bugged in that it lets you pick multiple proficiencies, then slaps a -10 Accuracy penalty on you regardless of what you wield (as shown in my screenshot's Accuracy breakdown as well)—but it is getting me the bonus penetration. What about the bonus crit damage?

 

I sure hope it's not the 3 points of extra damage that MaxQuest can't wrap his head around*, as that would be a rather measly bonus (around +15%). If I'm committing to a single weapon type for the entire game, +3 penetration and +15% crit damage won't do. I was expecting at least +30%.

 

* but if it is, it should be displayed in the damage calculation breakdown and it currently isn't.

Edited November 21, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[Boeroer]

Good point. There's something around 0.15 missing in that calculation.

 

So here is at least a bug that is totally worth investigating. It's either UI or the calculation itself which is wrong.

[Boeroer]

On a related note: how do you even get 18.5 here: image

Hm, something's off here. Not only the calculation is wrong (like, completely wrong) but also Biting Whip should only give +0.2 on top of Soul WHip, not +0.4.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

Also note the lash damage. 29.2 is 60% of 48.7. So it seems to be unaffected by penetration's x1.3 multiplier.

Or the system actually checks corrode AR, but it was really high?

Edited November 21, 2017 by MaxQuest

[dam]

I am looking at that Damage calculation, and don't quite get how the system has arrived to the final number of 48.7:

 

22.9 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.18 + 0.15 + 0.15) = 22.9 * 1.98 = 45.342

 

Also, iirc crit modifier is references as critDamageMult in the game databundle and has the value of 1.25...(gonna double check it)

But even then: 22.9 * 1.25 * (1 + 0.18 + 0.15 + 0.15)) = 22.9 * 1.85 = 42.365

 

On a related note: how do you even get 18.5 here: image

 

Regarding 18.5 :

 

(Base * 1.93 positive multipliers) * 0.5 graze = 18.9 , give or take some for rounding at some point in the process, poof, here's your 18.5

[dam]

 

On a related note: how do you even get 18.5 here: image

Hm, something's off here. Not only the calculation is wrong (like, completely wrong) but also Biting Whip should only give +0.2 on top of Soul WHip, not +0.4.

 

 

Unless he's a soulblade, in which case Biting Whip gives +60% .

[AndreaColombo]

Damage calc is off here too and it's not a critical hit:

 

 

12.6 * (1 + 125%) = 28.35

 

But I dealt 31.9

 

 

EDIT: Also not sure why the Accuracy breakdown says to hold shift for more information. I'm already holding shift to display what is there; I can't double-hold it XD

Edited November 21, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[dam]

EDIT: Also not sure why the Accuracy breakdown says to hold shift for more information. I'm already holding shift to display what is there; I can't double-hold it XD

 

You're just being difficult.

[AndreaColombo]

While we're at it (and so I don't open a new thread just for this)—any idea what effects suppress Dance of Death?

 

[dam]

Warrior Stance seems like a good candidate ?

[BMac]

I am looking at that Damage calculation, and don't quite get how the system has arrived to the final number of 48.7:

 

22.9 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.18 + 0.15 + 0.15) = 22.9 * 1.98 = 45.342

 

Misleadingly, Might is actually applied in a separate pass (after any additive bonuses).  So the math that's actually happening is:

 

22.9 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.15 + 0.15) * (1 + 0.18) = 22.9 * 1.8 * 1.18 = 48.64 (with a minor rounding problem at the end)

 

I think we can consider that a UI problem, but I'll check that we still want the math to work this way.

 

On a related note: how do you even get 18.5 here: image

 

I didn't work this one through, but negative multipliers are handled in a rather unusual way to prevent them from dropping the value all the way to 0.  They are converted to "Steps" like so:

 

Steps = (1 - 1/0.50) + (1 - 1/0.33) = (1 - 2) + (1 - 3) = -1 + -2

 

And then back to a final multiplier:

 

Multiplier = 1 / (1 - Steps) = 1 / (1 - -3) = 0.25

 

Positive multipliers are also handed in Steps but each +100% is simply considered 1 step, so it works out the same way.

 

This is definitely a bit weird to look at, I will make a note to think about how to display this.

 

I understand the subclass is currently bugged in that it lets you pick multiple proficiencies, then slaps a -10 Accuracy penalty on you regardless of what you wield (as shown in my screenshot's Accuracy breakdown as well)

 

The accuracy penalty is grayed out because it isn't being applied to that attack (you'll see that the numbers add up correctly without it).  Ideally we'll hide bonuses that do not apply to that attack, I have a bug for this.

 

What about the bonus crit damage?

 

MaxQuest is correct in that it has been silently included in the "+50% Crit" line (base crit is +25%).  I'll consider that a UI problem.

 

Also note the lash damage. 29.2 is 60% of 48.7. So it seems to be unaffected by penetration's x1.3 multiplier.

 

That is indeed a bug that I'll file.

[AndreaColombo]

Thank you for clarifying, BMac!

 

So base crit is +25% (nerfed from the first game) and the Devoted sublcass gets another +25% on top of it. Gotcha.

[MaxQuest]

Misleadingly, Might is actually applied in a separate pass (after any additive bonuses).  So the math that's actually happening is:

 

22.9 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.15 + 0.15) * (1 + 0.18) = 22.9 * 1.8 * 1.18 = 48.64 (with a minor rounding problem at the end)

 

I think we can consider that a UI problem, but I'll check that we still want the math to work this way.

Understood. So Might is basically applied multiplicatively now.

And yeah, UI could display it like that:

 

Before/After:

 

[...] but I'll check that we still want the math to work this way.

It's a quite important decision as it affects all power builds stat distributions.

 

In PoE1, might coefficient, graze malus (-0.5) and crit bonus (+0.5) all were applied additively. So you could have high might and deal decent damage even on grazes (e.g. paladin with Sacred Immolation); or you could make a cc-oriented character with low might, but who would still deal decent damage because he crits a lot (e.g. low-mig cipher), or has other high damage coefficients (e.g. sneak attack + deathblows).

 

On the other hand the new system allows going for "let the stars align" spikes, i.e. when a swing made by high-mig character crits and also benefits from x1.3 bonus from PEN minus AR difference, resulting in a huge total multiplier. The fact that the base CritDamageMult is decreased to 1.25 now, kinda points that this thing was noted =)

 

Tbh I am unsure which is the best approach here atm. The PoE1 feels a bit strange at start, but it really grows on you over time, when you understand there are different (almost equally) viable ways to arrive to high dps (and you have to evaluate this on per-build basis). On the other hand Deadfire multiplication could feel more natural because Might has always an equally proportional effect.

 

I didn't work this one through, but negative multipliers are handled in a rather unusual way to prevent them from dropping the value all the way to 0.  They are converted to "Steps" like so:

 

Steps = (1 - 1/0.50) + (1 - 1/0.33) = (1 - 2) + (1 - 3) = -1 + -2

I remember seeing something like this during recovery duration calculation in PoE1 =)

 

This is definitely a bit weird to look at, I will make a note to think about how to display this.

It's indeed weird.

It looks like an arithmetical puzzle where you have to put the missing signs. But even with provided explanation I can't arrive to the already mentioned 18.5.

 

 

Also note the lash damage. 29.2 is 60% of 48.7. So it seems to be unaffected by penetration's x1.3 multiplier.

 

That is indeed a bug that I'll file.

 

That's great)

 

And there is another related problem to that x1.3 multiplier: image

Specifically: 45.7 * 1.3 != 51.3

 

Unless he's a soulblade, in which case Biting Whip gives +60%.

That character was indeed a Soulblade. Soulblade/Fury to be precise.

 

But are you sure about that thing?

I have re-checked Soulblade subclass description and it's not mentioned anywhere.

Plus I've made a pure cipher, and he gets the same bonuses.

 

Something's wrong here tbh. Not to mention that soulblade's starting focus seems to jiggle by +/-5; and that a x/cipher can learn both Bitting and Draining Whips (image1,

image2), while other ciphers can select only one. But that's for a separate bug report. Will fill it later, once I test more.

Edited November 22, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

I guess the might part is left out in this case? If it's also 0.18 then it nearly matches.

[MaxQuest]

I guess the might part is left out in this case? If it's also 0.18 then it nearly matches.

Are you referring to: 45.7 * 1.3 != 51.3 ? (image)

 

The Might bonus is 0.15 in that case. But yes, you seem to have spotted the problem.

- the system first computes the regular damage, which is 45.7.

- then it checks for PEN-AR thresholds, and multiplies the damage by 1.3. Yet the final value is x1.158 lower than it should, as if 45.7 was divided by might before multiplying by 1.3 + some rounding error.

[Madscientist]

Now I am confused.

 

The damage formula in PoE1 was:

damage done = (  base damage * ( 1 + sum of all modifiers including might ) ) - target DR

There was a mimimum damage of 20% of the stuff in the brackets ( base * ( 1 + sum ))

Lashes used X% ( X =25 as default value ) of the stuff in the brackets. 25% of target DR was taken from that without minimum damage. same for dots.

 

damage formula PoE2:

damage done = ( base damage * ( 1 + sum of all modifiers without might ) * ( 1 + might bonus ) ) * A         

   A = 0,3 if pen < AR, A = 1 if pen = AR or pen > AR but pen < 2 * AR, A = 1,3 if pen > 2 * A

Lashes deal X% of the damage before A is multiplied and they ignore AR

I do not know about dots.

 

example:

 

An attack does 100 damage, The enemy has AR 10

- If your pen is below 10, your damage is 30

- if your pen is equal or greater 10 but below 20, your damage is 100

- if your pen is 20 or higher, your damage is 130

A 25% lash will always deal 25 damage, independent of your pen

 

Are my formulas correct?

 

If I understand it correctly, might has become much more powerful.

 

What about healing? I think different modifiers where already multiplicative in PoE1. Is that correct?

The only healing modifier except might so far is the bleak walker paladin, I guess.

I did not play so much, becuse 90% - 95% of my displayed "playtime" I am reporting bugs.

 

EDIT:

If I understand your posts correctly, crits deal 25% extra damage by default ( it was 50% in PoE1)

Do crits increase the duration also by 25% ?

What about grazes, regarding damage and duration?

 

EDIT2:

We need a new thread where the basic game mechanics are explained.

Like damage calculations, lash and dot mechanics, attack speed and recovery, stacking rules, . . .

 

This should be updated when a new game version changes it, or at least a version number should be written to the formula together with the info that it might change later.

I know this is lots of work, but at the moment I cannot tell if something regarding displayed numbers is correct or not.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Madscientist

[MaxQuest]

Are my formulas correct?

The damage formula in PoE1 was:

damage done = (  base damage * ( 1 + sum of all modifiers including might ) ) - target DR

There was a mimimum damage of 20% of the stuff in the brackets ( base * ( 1 + sum ))

damage formula PoE2:

damage done = ( base damage * ( 1 + sum of all modifiers without might ) * ( 1 + might bonus ) ) * A         

   A = 0,3 if pen < AR, A = 1 if pen = AR or pen > AR but pen < 2 * AR, A = 1,3 if pen > 2 * A

Yes. They are correct for the current state of the beta.

But there is something weird about graze calculation, as it just doesn't fit in.

Plus I have quoted-out the lash part, as we don't know how exactly their damage is intended to get calculated in Deadfire yet.

If I understand your posts correctly, crits deal 25% extra damage by default ( it was 50% in PoE1)

Yes

Do crits increase the duration also by 25%?

There is a different variable for that (iirc it's called durationCritMult or something like that). But it's current value is also 1.25

What about grazes, regarding damage and duration?

Grazes are weird atm.

We need a new thread where the basic game mechanics are explained.

Like damage calculations, lash and dot mechanics, attack speed and recovery, stacking rules, . . .

Welp, give it time 

Edited November 22, 2017 by MaxQuest

[dam]

Unless he's a soulblade, in which case Biting Whip gives +60%.

That character was indeed a Soulblade. Soulblade/Fury to be precise.

 

But are you sure about that thing?

I have re-checked Soulblade subclass description and it's not mentioned anywhere.

Plus I've made a pure cipher, and he gets the same bonuses.

 

Something's wrong here tbh. Not to mention that soulblade's starting focus seems to jiggle by +/-5; and that a x/cipher can learn both Bitting and Draining Whips (image1,

image2), while other ciphers can select only one. But that's for a separate bug report. Will fill it later, once I test more.

 

 

Yeah no my bad, double checked, soulblades get the regular +20% / +40% for soul whip / biting whip , I was sure they dealt more whip damage.

[MaxQuest]

Misleadingly, Might is actually applied in a separate pass (after any additive bonuses).  So the math that's actually happening is:

 

22.9 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.15 + 0.15) * (1 + 0.18) = 22.9 * 1.8 * 1.18 = 48.64 (with a minor rounding problem at the end)

 

I think we can consider that a UI problem, but I'll check that we still want the math to work this way.

Cross-linking a related thread. Maybe some ideas from there will be of use. Edited December 18, 2017 by MaxQuest