Health vs. Endurance/Health

[eisenschwein]

 

 

Greetings,

 

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

 

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

 

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

 

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

 

Haven't played the Beta yet myself but I can already tell that this is something I won't like about the revised system too.

 

How about tying the amount of wounds or injuries a character can sustain before collapsing to his or her constitution instead? Limiting it to 4 for all character builds, completely disregarding different physiques and levels of hardiness/toughness is simplifying things a bit too much for my taste.

 

If the classic endurance/health system won't be given another chance I could at least live with that compromise.

 

 

It is already tied to a character's constitution.

 

Your 22 CON fighter isn't as likely to drop as your 8 CON rogue (although one might argue the fighter's goal in life IS to get beat on so, their chance of going down increases).

 

You only get an injury if you actually fall during the fight.

 

 

Thanks, I figured that much.

 

A puny wizard being able to sustain only 2 wounds while a towering barbarian could be wounded 6 times and still go on would be a more elegant implementation though. Especially within the roleplaying context.

Edited November 16, 2017 by eisenschwein

[TheC]

In my opinion, it is a give and take...

 

With this new system, your characters no longer lose maximum health without being knocked out. In the old system, just taking dmg will eventually lead to the need for rest from fighting despite having never been defeated. It made healing in combat feel like only a tempory fix like a hasty bandage instead of magical intervention.

The old system was very interesting but I am definitely willing to give this one a try, especially with the changes to resting they have added.

 

[desel]

Greetings,

 

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

 

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

 

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

 

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

 

Cheers for starting the topic and sharing your impressions on the matter, probably couldn't have summarized my opinion any better.

 

 

Haven't played the Beta yet myself but I can already tell that this is something I won't like about the revised system too.

 

How about tying the amount of wounds or injuries a character can sustain before collapsing to his or her constitution instead? Limiting it to 4 for all character builds, completely disregarding different physiques and levels of hardiness/toughness is simplifying things a bit too much for my taste.

 

If the classic endurance/health system won't be given another chance I could at least live with that compromise.

 

A puny wizard being able to sustain only 2 wounds while a towering barbarian could be wounded 6 times and still go on would be a more elegant implementation though. Especially within the roleplaying context.

 

My thoughts exactly.

Constitution would be another factor in the likeliness of a character receiving a wound/getting injured (higher constitution -> less likely to receive a wound/getting injured)

and would also determine the max amount of wounds/injuries a character can accumulate before succumbing to death (higher constitution -> higher amount of wounds/injuries to sustain).

Much better than just setting the max amount to a fix number across-the-board for all characters and classes.

 

Currently it really feels like they just lazily copy-pasted the whole thing from Tyranny.

[Katarack21]

I'm not sure how much Deadfire combat you guys have under your belts, but I feel this new system is at least as good as the old one in PoE1.

Your characters get injuries a lot (unknowingly, I've been fighting higher-level content, so I know), and when you don't have enough food or the right food, your characters stumble into the battle with lesser set health pools and other penalties. I had at least three exciting fights with three of my party members gimped (always those mercenaries - the character I made was tough as nails).

You get two injuries, you're at 50% health, you rest. That's the new system. It's encourage rest spam in a way the health/endurance split never did.

 

In the old system I could got four, five battles with most of my team knocked out, barely surviving each one, scraping along, before I was forced to rest. I could barely survive three battles, hit four traps, and *then* rest. Longer, if I had triage. Here, that's a total no go. Three of my party members get knocked out twice and I'm resting, every time. Three of my party members get hit by two traps and I'm resting, every time.

 

Why? Because health pool is a much more serious effect than accuracy, perception, etc. Two injuries put a character down to 50% health. Over half my part at 50% health? No ****ing way am I going into combat. Over half my part at -5 perception, -20 accuracy, -5 resolve? I might push it.

 

It *sucks*. I really, really hate it.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Katarack21

[OrangePulp]

I'm somewhat split on this topic, as I did like the idea of health being a resource overall; there are some things I enjoy about not having it, though. Running weaker characters such as ciphers and wizards as melee seems like it will be more practical, as in pillars 1 I typically felt like eventually I'd have to rest simply based on the lower pool of health those classes had, due to incidental damage they'd take. In general having a strategy of enduring and healing damage is much more viable.

 

Boeroer mentions just stacking healing and focusing on offense (and presumably ignoring defense), and granted, he knows PoE better than I or probably anyone else on these boards. Still, I feel like that's more a question of specific balance, rather than healing itself being overpowered or not. I don't feel like stacking healing as a defensive option is inherently worse than other defenses, unless it's way easier to achieve or what have you.

 

Something else to consider is that in one of the QAs, Josh Sawyer said that he personally liked the health/endurance system, so presumably it wasn't just some sort of knee-jerk reaction. Might come down to the changes overall regarding resting, per-rest abilities (which I've hated since AD&D, thanks Jack Vance), and how all that interplays.

[Folie a deux]

 

Greetings,

 

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

 

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

 

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

 

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

 

Speaking from a main Monk's point of view here, I'm loving that they did away with the health/endurance pools.

Your monk could only go so far before being *forced* to rest, for no actual reason.

 

It does feel very different though, aye.

 

Exclusively playing an unarmed Monk here as well and I find the current health-only system a definite change for the worse. I think that the additional "endurance buffer" on top of the health pool actually allowed you to go further and longer before the inevitable rest, even with the Monk's inherent disadvantage of having to take damage and thus being more prone to injuries.

After reading a couple of impressions I guess it's the same for other melee-oriented classes who are now more vulnerable and have to rest more often because of the missing "endurance buffer".

 

In consequence I have to agree on endurance/health being the more thought-out and elegant system of the two.

[Folie a deux]

The limitation to 4 injuries feels incredibly stilted as well.
Why exactly 4 anyway? And why is it the same for every character, no matter the build or class?

[Katarack21]

The limitation to 4 injuries feels incredibly stilted as well.

Why exactly 4 anyway? And why is it the same for every character, no matter the build or class?

Because there's still an arbitrary health/endurance split, but injuries are tied directly to health and to food as a gameplay control mechanic. The injury limit is arbitrary and set to four because it's purpose is much closer to that of camping supplies than anything else.

[PrimeJunta]

Chalk me up as a fan of the old system as well.

[eisenschwein]

Not a fan of the visual representation either (blood droplets?).
I know it's all still work in progress and probably (I hope!) place holders, but I'd prefer a good old bar ticking down over those weird "traffic lights" any day of the week.

Just... bring back endurance/health, mkay?

[Osvir]

A solution: Options at New Game select.

Classic Mode (Health/Endurance), Injury Mode (Health+Injury Death), and Hybrid Mode (Health/Endurance+Injury Death)

Just examples, but you catch my drift. Of course, more work for Obsidian so I don't know. They've fiddled with this Injury system since... since probably a long time now. Rolling back and re-balancing would probably take a lot of resources, but alas, I said it already when it was announced way back when, when it was said they were trying a new system: Health/Endurance was and is still fine (in Pillars 1).

Although, I wonder if they have any inactive Endurance system developed in the background in case of too much negative feedback around the new system. You know, a sort of "Plan B".

But, I haven't experimented with the new system enough to know enough. I just pretty much jumped in and enjoyed my time. Combat felt nice, just a tad bit fast (but I pause so much so I can't quite get a grasp on "combat speed"). I don't really have much of an opinion around it yet, except that I did glance over my party portraits after a big fight and I believe I raised an eyebrow slightly when I saw that they were all at full health (which, in Pillars 1, they wouldn't have been).

[Gorionsson]

Yep.

This health / injury system just sucks.

Fight - rest, fight ,- rest. Gets annoying really fast.

[Osvir]

But this can be mitigated by proper combat sequencing. If you master combat, non of your characters get injured.

 

And whilst many say "Git gud isn't an argument". I have to say, it really is an argument. Start on an easier difficulty and move up.

 

In pretty much every game I've played I've always started low, Easy, and when I get more understanding I move up in difficulty. It's methodical and very learning.

 

Others have different personal experiences, and learn different ways. Just saying, I started on Casual before I managed Brutal in Starcraft 2.

 

Some I believe feel "I am Veteran. I am good!". But then reality hits and there is denial, it is a new system and they just can't accept that they aren't "that good". YET! Anybody can get "gud", you just need to devote some energy and time.

[FrcdXpsr]

Not really feeling this as well, for pretty much the same reasons the OP described plus the glaring issue of the fixed number of wounds for all characters and builds.

This may have been suitable for Tyranny but adopting it for Deadfire feels all kinds of wrong, especially when Pillars 1 already had - imo - perfected a rather unique system which also takes into account a character's endurance.
It may be just one cog in the machine but I really think it's something that makes Pillars Pillars and stand out as a cRPG that does things different than others. This should be capitalized on and not wasted.

[Starwars]

What I really liked about the health/endurance in PoE was that you took "long-term" damage even if you play the encounters well. Now, this long-term strategizing isn't anything *hard* to manage but I feel it created a rather nice layer of... well, even if you're good at the game, being in combat still takes its toll on your people, it's fatiguing, it will "grind you down". I love the feel of that. For me, aside from all the strictly mechanical reasons to do so, it makes resting kinda "make sense" in the game-world. That's a reason why I really disliked that they got rid of the fatigue debuff if you kept going for a long time without resting. Not because it makes the game hard, oh no. But it's a tiny little thing that makes the game-world feel a bit more logical, a bit more real for me.

 

I hate the idea that, if you play really well in Deadfire, you can just keep going and going and going. Now, on a first playthrough, of course you will get knocked out every now and then, but again... for me a lot of it has to do with the feel of it. The fact that you could technically have a party that all end combat with 1 hitpoint left and everyone will be right as rain after combat. Will that happen? No, of course not. But just knowing that, mechanically speaking, it's perfectly possible makes it all feel a bit more static to me, and more boring.

It's the same thing with almost everything being turned to per-encounter. It makes the game feel controlled, instead of "breathing" a bit if that makes sense. With a system more focused on per-rest stuff, you could possibly run into a really hard encounter after spending a lot of your resources before and get owned. Or, if you had saved up, you could run into a hard encounter and be ready to unleash everything you had. I love that. And I really dislike how per-encounter systems allows the designer to perfectly tune encounters. For some people that's a great plus (and I obviously understand the upside of it), but I just feel it makes the game feel static and too tightly controlled. I love it when a game can swing wildly up and down.

 

Now, I don't think the Deadfire system is horrible at all. The empower mechanic feels a bit weird to me for example, but it is undoubtedly useful. The injury system feels rather unelegant atm with its 25% "cuts" but with some tweaking I think it can work pretty well. Certainly better than Tyranny's which I felt was incredibly boring in terms of its combat. But yeah, I am disappointed that they moved away from some of the ideas in PoE. Personally I would've loved to see them try to expand *more* on the per-rest stuff, introduce more long-term strategizing and "management". But, it is what it is.

 

But yeah, I do hope they will continue to tweak it.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Starwars

[demeisen]

being in combat still takes its toll on your people, it's fatiguing, it will "grind you down". I love the feel of that. For me, aside from all the strictly mechanical reasons to do so, it makes resting kinda "make sense" in the game-world.

 

Personally I would've loved to see them try to expand *more* on the per-rest stuff, introduce more long-term strategizing and "management".

 

So much this.

 

To me, a core element of the RPG experience is lost when that "grind you down" dynamic is severely weakened.  A key emotional impact was the sense of being on a journey, where everything you do comes at a cost... a sense which is destroyed by auto-refilling health bars, per-encounter things, and limitless resources.  The best 1980's CRPGs did it well.  They were not about surviving a single fight, but about surviving a whole dungeon.  Even the easy fights took their toll, and were part of that grinding down process.  You wanted to play them well even when winning was not in doubt, so that you could survive the rest of the dungeon, because the game wasn't going to hold your hand and make sure you did.  POE1 had an echo of that dynamic still, but I worry POE2 will lose it almost entirely.  (If I didn't love the series and believe Obsidian does the best world-building of any studio out there, I'd be less sad about it...)

 

But clearly it's a passionate topic for people on both sides of that debate .  The only "solution" I see is a game mode checkbox for whether you want "combat grinds my party down" or "please refresh them after each fight"... which implies more testing and balancing, which might be more than Obsidian wants to pay for.  I suspect it's not as easy as a permadeath checkbox.

[Enduin]

I have to say I like the new system but it could use some more depth and granularity to it. I'm in favor of having two tiers of wounds based on damage dealt to you as others have mentioned. Break them up into two types: Serious and Minor. Serious are how they currently work. If you get knocked out by a powerful attack you'll get a Serious Wound, lose 1/4 of you health and the 4th results in death.

But if you get knocked out by a weak attack you only get a Minor Wound. These have a smaller penalty and carry no Health reduction on their own, but do in pairs, and require twice as many to get perma death. They still require rest to get rid of them and they can also be acquired by chance when stuck by a critical hit and not knocked out.

 

I think that would provide enough depth and nuance to the system while still remaining fairly straight forward and easy to understand. Cause that's all this new system is here for to simply and reduce the confusion many had over the old Health/Endurance system. Instead of gradual and incremental changes to Health that's measure by hundreds of points you just go by the major milestones. But only have 4 is probably a bit too simplistic, having Serious and Minor wounds helps to bring back more leeway to the experience while still retaining that easily grasped nature of it.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Enduin

[DCParry]

What I really liked about the health/endurance in PoE was that you took "long-term" damage even if you play the encounters well. Now, this long-term strategizing isn't anything *hard* to manage but I feel it created a rather nice layer of... well, even if you're good at the game, being in combat still takes its toll on your people, it's fatiguing, it will "grind you down". I love the feel of that. For me, aside from all the strictly mechanical reasons to do so, it makes resting kinda "make sense" in the game-world. That's a reason why I really disliked that they got rid of the fatigue debuff if you kept going for a long time without resting. Not because it makes the game hard, oh no. But it's a tiny little thing that makes the game-world feel a bit more logical, a bit more real for me.

 

I hate the idea that, if you play really well in Deadfire, you can just keep going and going and going. Now, on a first playthrough, of course you will get knocked out every now and then, but again... for me a lot of it has to do with the feel of it. The fact that you could technically have a party that all end combat with 1 hitpoint left and everyone will be right as rain after combat. Will that happen? No, of course not. But just knowing that, mechanically speaking, it's perfectly possible makes it all feel a bit more static to me, and more boring.

It's the same thing with almost everything being turned to per-encounter. It makes the game feel controlled, instead of "breathing" a bit if that makes sense. With a system more focused on per-rest stuff, you could possibly run into a really hard encounter after spending a lot of your resources before and get owned. Or, if you had saved up, you could run into a hard encounter and be ready to unleash everything you had. I love that. And I really dislike how per-encounter systems allows the designer to perfectly tune encounters. For some people that's a great plus (and I obviously understand the upside of it), but I just feel it makes the game feel static and too tightly controlled. I love it when a game can swing wildly up and down.

 

Now, I don't think the Deadfire system is horrible at all. The empower mechanic feels a bit weird to me for example, but it is undoubtedly useful. The injury system feels rather unelegant atm with its 25% "cuts" but with some tweaking I think it can work pretty well. Certainly better than Tyranny's which I felt was incredibly boring in terms of its combat. But yeah, I am disappointed that they moved away from some of the ideas in PoE. Personally I would've loved to see them try to expand *more* on the per-rest stuff, introduce more long-term strategizing and "management". But, it is what it is.

 

But yeah, I do hope they will continue to tweak it.

 

The arrival of the beta inspired me to go back and finish my final definitive replay of PoE, and I am finding the very thing you like to be a huge annoyance to me. I am playing a non-min-maxed melee type cipher build, and the limiting factor on everything is my health. Not Aloth's spells, not kana getting knocked out every other fight, but watching the bar turn to yellow and red without my character getting knocked out or even losing large chunks of health. I know it helps simulate an attrition sort of process, but I find this apparent nod towards realism annoying, and successful combat management does not pay off. Why should I struggle to keep everyone conscious and time my skill and spell usage when I am going to have to rest after the same interval with no benefit or penalty?

[Katarack21]

 

What I really liked about the health/endurance in PoE was that you took "long-term" damage even if you play the encounters well. Now, this long-term strategizing isn't anything *hard* to manage but I feel it created a rather nice layer of... well, even if you're good at the game, being in combat still takes its toll on your people, it's fatiguing, it will "grind you down". I love the feel of that. For me, aside from all the strictly mechanical reasons to do so, it makes resting kinda "make sense" in the game-world. That's a reason why I really disliked that they got rid of the fatigue debuff if you kept going for a long time without resting. Not because it makes the game hard, oh no. But it's a tiny little thing that makes the game-world feel a bit more logical, a bit more real for me.

 

I hate the idea that, if you play really well in Deadfire, you can just keep going and going and going. Now, on a first playthrough, of course you will get knocked out every now and then, but again... for me a lot of it has to do with the feel of it. The fact that you could technically have a party that all end combat with 1 hitpoint left and everyone will be right as rain after combat. Will that happen? No, of course not. But just knowing that, mechanically speaking, it's perfectly possible makes it all feel a bit more static to me, and more boring.

It's the same thing with almost everything being turned to per-encounter. It makes the game feel controlled, instead of "breathing" a bit if that makes sense. With a system more focused on per-rest stuff, you could possibly run into a really hard encounter after spending a lot of your resources before and get owned. Or, if you had saved up, you could run into a hard encounter and be ready to unleash everything you had. I love that. And I really dislike how per-encounter systems allows the designer to perfectly tune encounters. For some people that's a great plus (and I obviously understand the upside of it), but I just feel it makes the game feel static and too tightly controlled. I love it when a game can swing wildly up and down.

 

Now, I don't think the Deadfire system is horrible at all. The empower mechanic feels a bit weird to me for example, but it is undoubtedly useful. The injury system feels rather unelegant atm with its 25% "cuts" but with some tweaking I think it can work pretty well. Certainly better than Tyranny's which I felt was incredibly boring in terms of its combat. But yeah, I am disappointed that they moved away from some of the ideas in PoE. Personally I would've loved to see them try to expand *more* on the per-rest stuff, introduce more long-term strategizing and "management". But, it is what it is.

 

But yeah, I do hope they will continue to tweak it.

 

The arrival of the beta inspired me to go back and finish my final definitive replay of PoE, and I am finding the very thing you like to be a huge annoyance to me. I am playing a non-min-maxed melee type cipher build, and the limiting factor on everything is my health. Not Aloth's spells, not kana getting knocked out every other fight, but watching the bar turn to yellow and red without my character getting knocked out or even losing large chunks of health. I know it helps simulate an attrition sort of process, but I find this apparent nod towards realism annoying, and successful combat management does not pay off. Why should I struggle to keep everyone conscious and time my skill and spell usage when I am going to have to rest after the same interval with no benefit or penalty?

 

You lose health when you lose endurance. You can prevent health loss--by doing the same things that prevent endurance loss, that prevent you from being damaged. People here are using "git gud" to defend the injury system--you can use the same thing to defend *any* system, by just saying "get better at it and it won't suck so bad!"

 

Stack defense. Use hard CC (cipher has plenty) and break engagement (cipher has lots of that, too). Stack engagement on your tanks so the enemy can't break away, blind them, and attack from behind while their attempting to swat your tank in the face.

 

As you get better at this throughout the game, you slowly learn how far you can push through an area before it starts to get dangerous. And because health has a high degree of granularity, you don't have a hard threshold where rest becomes the default but a gradually building degree of how much you need to rest.

[Folie a deux]

Not a fan of the visual representation either (blood droplets?).

I know it's all still work in progress and probably (I hope!) place holders, but I'd prefer a good old bar ticking down over those weird "traffic lights" any day of the week.

 

It's even worse considering that it's also visually emphasizing "wound equality" among all builds and classes.

Doesn't matter if you're building a battle-hardened, scarred Coastal Aumaua or planning on roleplaying a support class-oriented Orlan who's never been in the thick of battle directly - both will go down when it hits that imaginary fourth red light.

[Enduin]

 

Not a fan of the visual representation either (blood droplets?).

I know it's all still work in progress and probably (I hope!) place holders, but I'd prefer a good old bar ticking down over those weird "traffic lights" any day of the week.

 

It's even worse considering that it's also visually emphasizing "wound equality" among all builds and classes.

Doesn't matter if you're building a battle-hardened, scarred Coastal Aumaua or planning on roleplaying a support class-oriented Orlan who's never been in the thick of battle directly - both will go down when it hits that imaginary fourth red light.

 

I think this is a good instance where having different degrees of severity to Injuries would be beneficial.

 

Certain Classes/Sub-classes could have bonuses to Injuries allowing them to acquire more Injuries or further reducing the change of acquiring a Serious Injury. With your Constitution then being the main determining factor on the threshold required for you to receive a Serious Injury vs a Minor Injury when knocked out and chance of receiving a Minor Injury when struck with a critical attack.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Enduin

[Hemmer]

Probably not possible for the next build on such short notice but how about one of the future builds having classic endurance/health instead of or even alongside the current system (maybe as part of a different build or branch) for a better evaluation/comparison of the two "in action", so to speak?

[dam]

But this can be mitigated by proper combat sequencing. If you master combat, non of your characters get injured.

 

And whilst many say "Git gud isn't an argument". I have to say, it really is an argument. Start on an easier difficulty and move up.

 

In pretty much every game I've played I've always started low, Easy, and when I get more understanding I move up in difficulty. It's methodical and very learning.

 

Others have different personal experiences, and learn different ways. Just saying, I started on Casual before I managed Brutal in Starcraft 2.

 

Some I believe feel "I am Veteran. I am good!". But then reality hits and there is denial, it is a new system and they just can't accept that they aren't "that good". YET! Anybody can get "gud", you just need to devote some energy and time.

 

Yeah no, that is factually incorrect.

 

I mean, you see traps on your screen, you actually visually see them.

You get characters close, bitches don't detect, whatever.

 

You painstakingly and carefully move your chars around the traps one by one, yet one of those fcktards decides to step on it (or the hitbox is slightly bigger than the visual), BOOM, injury.

 

 

And then you get to the unpleasant savescum-or-rest part.

 

 

 

 

This just doesn't work.

 

I'm wholeheartedly in favour of traps actually feeling absolutely mortal like they did in dungeons and dragons Online (man, you didn't have a trapper in your party, you better kiss that dungeon goodbye).

 

 

 

 

The current injury system however, doesn't work.

 

Either we get injuries too easily, or the limit of 4 (and the debuffs) are way overkill.

 

Injuries should be 10% hp penalty per injury, max 10, and the current debuffs.

People would rest before the debuff threshold got retarded, and they'd still be able to go on with 4-5 injuries on a character if they so desired.

[dam]

 

 

Not a fan of the visual representation either (blood droplets?).

I know it's all still work in progress and probably (I hope!) place holders, but I'd prefer a good old bar ticking down over those weird "traffic lights" any day of the week.

 

It's even worse considering that it's also visually emphasizing "wound equality" among all builds and classes.

Doesn't matter if you're building a battle-hardened, scarred Coastal Aumaua or planning on roleplaying a support class-oriented Orlan who's never been in the thick of battle directly - both will go down when it hits that imaginary fourth red light.

 

I think this is a good instance where having different degrees of severity to Injuries would be beneficial.

 

Certain Classes/Sub-classes could have bonuses to Injuries allowing them to acquire more Injuries or further reducing the change of acquiring a Serious Injury. With your Constitution then being the main determining factor on the threshold required for you to receive a Serious Injury vs a Minor Injury when knocked out and chance of receiving a Minor Injury when struck with a critical attack.

 

 

In real life, people would just savescum this.

 

The current system just does not work.

[Enduin]

 

 

 

Not a fan of the visual representation either (blood droplets?).

I know it's all still work in progress and probably (I hope!) place holders, but I'd prefer a good old bar ticking down over those weird "traffic lights" any day of the week.

 

It's even worse considering that it's also visually emphasizing "wound equality" among all builds and classes.

Doesn't matter if you're building a battle-hardened, scarred Coastal Aumaua or planning on roleplaying a support class-oriented Orlan who's never been in the thick of battle directly - both will go down when it hits that imaginary fourth red light.

 

I think this is a good instance where having different degrees of severity to Injuries would be beneficial.

 

Certain Classes/Sub-classes could have bonuses to Injuries allowing them to acquire more Injuries or further reducing the change of acquiring a Serious Injury. With your Constitution then being the main determining factor on the threshold required for you to receive a Serious Injury vs a Minor Injury when knocked out and chance of receiving a Minor Injury when struck with a critical attack.

 

 

In real life, people would just savescum this.

 

The current system just does not work.

 

I'm failing to see how that's a possible greater issue in this instance. The whole point is to reduce the likelihood of the current serious injuries and increase the chances of getting Minor ones that don't come with the same level of penalty, while also taking into account Class and Stat factors that should play into how many Injuries a particular character can sustain and the likelihood they'll get a Serious or Minor one. No significant number of people are going to restart entire battles because they got a Minor Injury from a Crit Hit or were unfortunate enough to get a Serious Injury from a Knockout. They're more likely to just rest and use up some of their food supplies.