Politics Episode 8: WWF Edition

[Ben No.3]

Capitalists are scum

https://www.google.de/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

Communists are scum

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

Even anarchists managed to be oppressive

"This disastrous outcome [of the soviet unions development] discredited socialist and communist ideas for the rest of the century. Anarchists argue that they could have done better. But, when anarchist activists introduced workplace self-management during the Spanish Civil War, scarcity, military pressures and workers' indiscipline pushed these activists in the same authoritarian direction as the Bolsheviks. The anarchist Justice Minister, Garcia Oliver, initiated the setting up of 'concentration camps' and even the most principled anarchists, the Friends of Durutti, advocated 'forced labour'."

That is from this giant article: http://libcom.org/history/revolution-back-agenda-mark-kosman

 

Now, we have a choice. Either we assume every capitalist, communist, anarchist etc. Genuinely supports these actions and everything their respective governments did; or we see that in the end, all governments kill innocents en Masse, if given the chance. That it is neither inherent to nor excluded from any system. And from there, let's move on.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Guard Dog]

 

now you mixing feudal system versus democracy into mix...

 

I honestly think America is more or less a feudal system. Especially the way healthcare and benefits are largely due to being associated with a company. Honestly it looks remarkably similar to japan in the late Nanboku-chō period. So basically pre-feudal. The only real distinction being the rise of the samurai class, which would be our police force more or less. #SamuraiLivesMatter amiright? Yeah... see what I mean? Totally pre-feudal, more so than any of the claims that we are an oligarchy.

 

I'm sorry but that is completely absurd. The benefit of buying health care coverage through employers is you are buying through a pool and can negotiate a better rate. You can do that without going through employers as well. You can also by individual policies. You can also get low cost services for simple problems at walk in clinics. The notion that only people with jobs can get health insurance gets bandied about a lot but it has always been false.

 

But this does need to be improved. The federal government has thoroughly f----d up the health insurance marketplace with anti-competitive regulation at the behest of health insurance lobbyists. Step 1 to fixing things is to remove the roadblocks placed before insurance companies selling smaller and a la carte style plans to consumers everywhere and anywhere.

[Ben No.3]

Health care is one of those things I don't think anyone should seriously advocate for being fully privatised. In extreme cases, it means that a persons survival depends on how wealthy they are. Would you seriously consider that to be a morally superior situation when compared to the beggar survives and a few rich folk have to pay for it?

[Guard Dog]

Health care is a service. It's not a right. However, it think it would be worth discussing a national plan that covers catastrophic illness and injury. If you need heart surgery your fellow citizens will cover you. If you need stitches then you pay for them yourself or you buy insurance. The costs of insurance will drop because now the big ticket expenses are out of their hands. 

[Ben No.3]

Health care is a service. It's not a right. However, it think it would be worth discussing a national plan that covers catastrophic illness and injury. If you need heart surgery your fellow citizens will cover you. If you need stitches then you pay for them yourself or you buy insurance. The costs of insurance will drop because now the big ticket expenses are out of their hands.

That's a start, but what do we do about those who can't afford the Stiches? Don't forget prevention... do you always want to wait until a lack of Stiches turned into a serious infection that needs immediate treatment? That just seems more... inefficient, assuming you are willing to cover poor people's life saving surgeries.

Now, of course not every one will be in danger of life, but a lot will get sick and won't work it at least will deliver poorer quality work. Furthermore, many poor people, so the vast majority of the workforce, would likely wait until the last minute to go to the doctor in order to avoid the bills, which again brings us to the topic of sick workers; especially considering that many more would likely get sick "under you", since I don't think you're too fond of environmental protection laws?

Edited July 11, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Guard Dog]

Oh and Ben in your previous post you are conflating the actions of governments with economic systems again. Communism tends to permit terrible governments because is requires a concentrations of absolute power over the state and people to be implemented. People being people once they have absolute power do terrible things with it. The enemy in the end is not economics, it's governments. Communism did not kill millions of Russians during the "purges", the Soviet government did. But the Soviet government does not exist without Communism. Every evil act in human history begins with this terrible need, this sickness in the human soul to have control over the lives of the other humans. And a system like Communism already being rooted in the base human emotion of envy just brings out the worst in already flawed people by concentrating power on a few and forcibly rendering the rest powerless by reducing them to the lowest common denominator.  

 

A wise people should understand whatever economic system you choose to follow you MUST be able to keep the power of your government in check. Liberty in any society is a zero sum commodity. The more the state has over you the less you have over yourself. That is one of the big reasons gun control is so ferociously contested here in the United States. If some future government of the US decided to start lining up citizens and shooting them, the citizens here shoot back.

[Gorgon]

mmm I 'm curious as to why you think colonies were established in the first place. Give me an example of colonization where the object was not to enrich the home culture or deny resources to competitors.

 

Capitalism isn't really an ideology despite efforts to the contrary. It is simply how the world works. Usually Capitalism is associated with mass production, the market economy, but these are just gradual, in the case of the industrial revolution monumental, changes to something that has always existed.

 

Getting Capitalism mixed up with values, because of the relative success and affluence of western Capitalist societies, is a mistake. At its core it is Gordon Gekko, the law of the jungle pure and simple. Those factors that reign in Capitalism and make societies stable aren't Capitalist. Taxation, redistribution, those are ingredients that go together with Capitalism to create modern societies. 

[Guard Dog]

 

Health care is a service. It's not a right. However, it think it would be worth discussing a national plan that covers catastrophic illness and injury. If you need heart surgery your fellow citizens will cover you. If you need stitches then you pay for them yourself or you buy insurance. The costs of insurance will drop because now the big ticket expenses are out of their hands.

That's a start, but what do we do about those who can't afford the Stiches? Don't forget prevention... do you always want to wait until a lack of Stiches turned into a serious infection that needs immediate treatment? That just seems more... inefficient, assuming you are willing to cover poor people's life saving surgeries.

 

People are responsible for THEMSELVES! No one is owed anything from anyone else just because they are here breathing air. We do not owe them food, water, a place to sleep or healthcare. They are owed the opportunity to do what is required to have these things and then to DO the things to have them. People voluntarily help the less fortunate here all the time. It's called charity. I donated more than 20% of my after tax income to various charities last year alone. Citizens of the US donate to charitites more than most of the nations of Europe combined.

 

But that is something we choose to do. It's a different thing when the government put a gun to your head and tells you it is going to take the money you worked to earn and buy something that guy over there who didn't earn it. Every dollar someone receives without working for someone else worked for without receiving.

 

I am and have always been willing to give my life for my fellow citizens. But I will NOT live it for them!

[Gfted1]

People are responsible for THEMSELVES! No one is owed anything from anyone else just because they are here breathing air. We do not owe them food, water, a place to sleep or healthcare.

Right here is where you lost every single European poster.

[Ben No.3]

Oh and Ben in your previous post you are conflating the actions of governments with economic systems again. Communism tends to permit terrible governments because is requires a concentrations of absolute power over the state and people to be implemented. People being people once they have absolute power do terrible things with it. The enemy in the end is not economics, it's governments. Communism did not kill millions of Russians during the "purges", the Soviet government did. But the Soviet government does not exist without Communism. Every evil act in human history begins with this terrible need, this sickness in the human soul to have control over the lives of the other humans. And a system like Communism already being rooted in the base human emotion of envy just brings out the worst in already flawed people by concentrating power on a few and forcibly rendering the rest powerless by reducing them to the lowest common denominator.

 

A wise people should understand whatever economic system you choose to follow you MUST be able to keep the power of your government in check. Liberty in any society is a zero sum commodity. The more the state has over you the less you have over yourself. That is one of the big reasons gun control is so ferociously contested here in the United States. If some future government of the US decided to start lining up citizens and shooting them, the citizens here shoot back.

wouldn't you say the same dynamic you described for state and citizen also applies for powerful and powerless, rich and poor, bourgeois and proletarian or however you want to call it, and if not, why not?

[Guard Dog]

mmm I 'm curious as to why you think colonies were established in the first place. Give me an example of colonization where the object was not to enrich the home culture or deny resources to competitors.

 

Capitalism isn't really an ideology despite efforts to the contrary. It is simply how the world works. Usually Capitalism is associated with mass production, the market economy, but these are just gradual, in the case of the industrial revolution monumental, changes to something that has always existed.

 

Getting Capitalism mixed up with values, because of the relative success and affluence of western Capitalist societies, is a mistake. At its core it is Gordon Gekko, the law of the jungle pure and simple. Those factors that reign in Capitalism and make societies stable aren't Capitalist. Taxation, redistribution, those are ingredients that go together with Capitalism to create modern societies. 

Are you asking me? If so go back and read my last 5 or so posts. I'm not here defending capitalism as the end all be all way of doing business. At best it's just better than the alternatives.

[Ben No.3]

 

mmm I 'm curious as to why you think colonies were established in the first place. Give me an example of colonization where the object was not to enrich the home culture or deny resources to competitors.

 

Capitalism isn't really an ideology despite efforts to the contrary. It is simply how the world works. Usually Capitalism is associated with mass production, the market economy, but these are just gradual, in the case of the industrial revolution monumental, changes to something that has always existed.

 

Getting Capitalism mixed up with values, because of the relative success and affluence of western Capitalist societies, is a mistake. At its core it is Gordon Gekko, the law of the jungle pure and simple. Those factors that reign in Capitalism and make societies stable aren't Capitalist. Taxation, redistribution, those are ingredients that go together with Capitalism to create modern societies.

Are you asking me? If so go back and read my last 5 or so posts. I'm not here defending capitalism as the end all be all way of doing business. At best it's just better than the alternatives.

is it really efficient enough to justify the suffering it causes? We're speaking globally, anything else wouldn't make sense...

[injurai]

Perhaps I'm mistaken in saying feudalism. Because I don't mean it in the sense of European medival feudalisms, I mean in terms of Japan. It's very different when you dig down and look at the long chain of economic policies and reforms. Japan as a somewhat isolated nation with that unified late as cultural influence from outside began to set in ~400-600 CE. It's development as a frontier nation bears a lot of similarities to America. Just in the same way as once land was all divided, how the immediate halt of boom lead to new dynamics. It's not just those similarities but how they propagate out over centuries. Japan looked more like the Napoleonic era up until it reached the Sengoku period. Returning somewhat to form afterwards in the reunification. But this is all just draping to contextualize my contrast with these elements honestly being mixed up in the US system and seemingly coming ever more into the forefront.

 

So what, if companies insurance policy is merely collective bargaining? I'm not say that's bad. I am saying being part of a larger organization is a massive security blanket. People land those positions from working hard, and certainly have a good foot to start out on.

[Gorgon]

We have enough wealth to provide these things just to make society less turbulent. I guess it depends what you want to spend your money on. If a majority decides that government has those duties, health care, education and so on, well then it does.

[Gorgon]

 

mmm I 'm curious as to why you think colonies were established in the first place. Give me an example of colonization where the object was not to enrich the home culture or deny resources to competitors.

 

Capitalism isn't really an ideology despite efforts to the contrary. It is simply how the world works. Usually Capitalism is associated with mass production, the market economy, but these are just gradual, in the case of the industrial revolution monumental, changes to something that has always existed.

 

Getting Capitalism mixed up with values, because of the relative success and affluence of western Capitalist societies, is a mistake. At its core it is Gordon Gekko, the law of the jungle pure and simple. Those factors that reign in Capitalism and make societies stable aren't Capitalist. Taxation, redistribution, those are ingredients that go together with Capitalism to create modern societies. 

Are you asking me? If so go back and read my last 5 or so posts. I'm not here defending capitalism as the end all be all way of doing business. At best it's just better than the alternatives.

 

No I thought I could get in before the next post and then I had to get bread out of the oven.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Capitalism is the only economic system that allows for a semblance of democracy because of the distribution of ownership. Under socialism you could theoretically claim to be free, but since you have to work for the government, you're only free if you don't care about having a job and eating.

[Guard Dog]

Not all of them surely. But some I guess. It comes down to this: how much of someone else work, sweat, labor, etc does someone who didn't do that work feel they are entitled to?

[Guard Dog]

 

 

mmm I 'm curious as to why you think colonies were established in the first place. Give me an example of colonization where the object was not to enrich the home culture or deny resources to competitors.

 

Capitalism isn't really an ideology despite efforts to the contrary. It is simply how the world works. Usually Capitalism is associated with mass production, the market economy, but these are just gradual, in the case of the industrial revolution monumental, changes to something that has always existed.

 

Getting Capitalism mixed up with values, because of the relative success and affluence of western Capitalist societies, is a mistake. At its core it is Gordon Gekko, the law of the jungle pure and simple. Those factors that reign in Capitalism and make societies stable aren't Capitalist. Taxation, redistribution, those are ingredients that go together with Capitalism to create modern societies.

Are you asking me? If so go back and read my last 5 or so posts. I'm not here defending capitalism as the end all be all way of doing business. At best it's just better than the alternatives.

is it really efficient enough to justify the suffering it causes? We're speaking globally, anything else wouldn't make sense...

 

When you have a better idea I'm willing to listen. But if that idea concentrates absolute political power in the hands of the few then it's a non-starter with me.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Not all of them surely. But some I guess. It comes down to this: how much of someone else work, sweat, labor, etc does someone who didn't do that work feel they are entitled to?

That gets decided through the democratic process, at least in theory. The main problem in the US is we don't have an equitable taxation system to afford the spending most people support.

[Chilloutman]

Not all of them surely. But some I guess. It comes down to this: how much of someone else work, sweat, labor, etc does someone who didn't do that work feel they are entitled to?

Its more way around, how much you are able to accept to be taken away from you by government and than redistributed

[injurai]

The main problem in the US is we don't have an equitable taxation system to afford the spending most people support.

 

The problem there is that we blow our taxes on establishing national and global security, while other nations don't have those spending concerns. Never mind we never actually recovered from 2008.

[Chilloutman]

 

The main problem in the US is we don't have an equitable taxation system to afford the spending most people support.

 

The problem there is that we blow our taxes on establishing national and global security, while other nations don't have those spending concerns. Never mind we never actually recovered from 2008.

 

I am on same page as Trump here, EU NATO members needs to raise military spending

[Ben No.3]

Not all of them surely. But some I guess. It comes down to this: how much of someone else work, sweat, labor, etc does someone who didn't do that work feel they are entitled to?

great question, what do company owners have to say about it?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Not all of them surely. But some I guess. It comes down to this: how much of someone else work, sweat, labor, etc does someone who didn't do that work feel they are entitled to?

I see you agree that surplus extraction from the proletariat is bad, RED Dog.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

The main problem in the US is we don't have an equitable taxation system to afford the spending most people support.

 

The problem there is that we blow our taxes on establishing national and global security, while other nations don't have those spending concerns. Never mind we never actually recovered from 2008.

 

I don't see an alternative to establishing security. It's part of the problem for sure but still a relatively small part. The real whale are the entitlements, and healthcare in particular.