Pathfinder CRPG with Avellone and without Obsidian announced

[IndiraLightfoot]

I mean, what's there not to love here:

-kingdom making

-rules that I already adore

-Still, to me, an entirely new setting. IIRC, I got a tip about Pathfinder (thx Kaine Parker) on these very forums just a few years ago, and now it becomes a CRPG. Sweet deal.

-And that scope. Core game 40h, plus side quests 80h, and then your kingdom, and all the replayability.

-This and PoE2 will keep me entertained for years.

[ManifestedISO]

Would rather play Mattel Football on an iPhone 3G sliding bare bottom down a chute pocked with razor blades than this game.

[LittleRose]

Okay. And why would you prefer that?

[Raithe]

Well Kingmaker has been one of the best adventure path's Paizo have produced for Pathfinder, so I have to admit, I'm curious to see how well it gets translated into a crpg format. The fact that the design team are playing it over and over again means at least they'll have some awareness of it rather than purely coming at it from a nodding acquaintance.

Although as they pointed out, within the adventure path the practical aspects of the Kingdom tend to be more statistical rather than story, so having more elements of that become a choice & consequence thing has my gaming antenna waving in potential excitement.

 

Then again, I always had a fond spot in my heart for the old Birthright campaign setting that TSR produced back in the 90's.

[Doppelschwert]

I think the game would be great if they deliver on all of what they promise, but I somehow have my doubts about that. I'm cautiously optimistic - everything so far sounds very much like PR talk instead of actual facts, in particular because a lot of details are (understandably) missing.

[HoonDing]

Can you romance the barbarian chick?

[blotter]

Most of what I've seen on the promotional end of things seems fairly competent. The dialogue/narration presented in the intro and gnome seems fairly well written, though it markedly slips in the wizard gameplay video. I found this to be case especially where Amiri's dialogue is concerned; it might have something to do with the gruff informality of her speech not translating as smoothly, but the Facebook interview with Avellone (https://www.facebook.com/notes/pathfinder-kingmaker/interview-with-narrative-designer-chris-avellone/705297732990609/) made it sound like he might be involved in writing for her to some extent and I'd expect him to come up with something better than "coo-coo" or "wussin' out".

 

However they go about specific phrasing for dialogue, both Amiri and Octavia seem like pretty flat, one-note characters so far. Hopefully, that'll change with future updates.

 

Having frequently occurring alignment shifts tied to specific combinations (e.g., Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, etc.) based on dialogue options would have seemed like a pretty questionable decision even if there weren't any examples of it. Based on the ones they've provided to demonstrate the way it works, it looks like it's every bit as arbitrary as I'd have feared it would be. This sort of thing isn't novel, of course, but treating particular options as being uniquely and exclusively representative of a particular alignment promises to make the whole thing even more annoying and nonsensical than other examples of this that only push for changes along a single alignment axis.

 

They've said that they're running multiple Pathfinder campaigns while developing the game, so maybe they should try vocally tracking how their character's miscellaneous responses prompt faint shifts in alignment. The way it was going in the videos, I wouldn't be surprised to see a "You're welcome" dialogue option result in a shift towards lawful good, and I'd hope that no one would think that's a good idea after having a DM report that to them in a live game.

Edited June 10, 2017 by blotter

[Vaeliorin]

I will admit, the alignment shifts bother me.  I fear it will end up like Mask of the Betrayer where trying to play any sort of good character almost always ends up with you being forced into Lawful Good alignment (because the "good" options to keep the Spirit Meter full give Lawful and Good alignment) making playing any sort of non-Lawful requirement character difficult and not very fun.

 

Granted, I can't recall if Pathfinder has alignment requirements for classes like 3.X did, since I haven't touched it since the Beta (I felt they were going the wrong direction, what with making casters more powerful and doing basically nothing for non-casters...no idea if that's still the case.)

[lobotomy42]

Chris worked on most of Black Isle’s internally developed projects, including Planescape: Torment, Fallout 2, and the Icewind Dale series. He then went on to work on Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, Neverwinter Nights 2, and Fallout: New Vegas. His more recent work includes the Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition with Beamdog Studios, System Shock 1 Reboot with Nightdive Studios, and Arkane Studios’ Prey.

 

Boy, he is really bitter about whatever went down at Obsidian. He can't even bring himself to mention them by name.

[algroth]

I was mildly optimistic about this before, but looking at some of the above footage I can't help but get Lionheart flashbacks. It looks very stale and generic. Can't say I'd be surprised if it ends up receiving a high-60s/low-70s metascore.

[ShadySands]

I'm more optimistic than I was before but that's not saying a whole lot

[Harry Easter]

I was mildly optimistic about this before, but looking at some of the above footage I can't help but get Lionheart flashbacks. It looks very stale and generic. Can't say I'd be surprised if it ends up receiving a high-60s/low-70s metascore.

 

"Generic"doesn't need to be bad.  I would like to play a good adventure for a change and the trolls already look charming over-the-top. Writing looks also good and the "sitting on the throne" - part seems to be fun. So thumps up, that the Kickstarter will be a success. 

 

But I have still a question: aren't there Aliens in Pathfinder? It would be fun, if we could plunder a spaceship, just for the pulpy weirdness-factor  .

Edited June 14, 2017 by Harry Easter

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

I was mildly optimistic about this before, but looking at some of the above footage I can't help but get Lionheart flashbacks. It looks very stale and generic. Can't say I'd be surprised if it ends up receiving a high-60s/low-70s metascore.

 

"Generic" hasn't to be bad.  I would like to play a good adventure for a change and the trolls already look charming over-the-top. Writing looks also good and the "sitting on the throne" - part seems to be fun. So thumps up, that the Kickstarter will be a success. 

 

But I have still a question: aren't there Aliens in Pathfinder? It would be fun, if we could plunder a spaceship, just for the pulpy weirdness-factor  .

 

Yeah, for some reason I have a weak spot for Spock-moments in RPGs. I liked the Spelljammer setting, and thought the alien aspects of certain Might & Magic iterations to be quite amusing, so I actually hope for some Pigs in Space shenanigans.

[redneckdevil]

 

I was mildly optimistic about this before, but looking at some of the above footage I can't help but get Lionheart flashbacks. It looks very stale and generic. Can't say I'd be surprised if it ends up receiving a high-60s/low-70s metascore.

"Generic"doesn't need to be bad. I would like to play a good adventure for a change and the trolls already look charming over-the-top. Writing looks also good and the "sitting on the throne" - part seems to be fun. So thumps up, that the Kickstarter will be a success.

 

But I have still a question: aren't there Aliens in Pathfinder? It would be fun, if we could plunder a spaceship, just for the pulpy weirdness-factor .

It actually does. Ustaluv has your lovecraftian aliens, Mana wastes has your "Mars attack" aliens, then alot are sprinkled around the world with the name "outsiders" type.

Mana wastes are where u wanna go with advanced technology

Edited June 14, 2017 by redneckdevil

[algroth]

 

I was mildly optimistic about this before, but looking at some of the above footage I can't help but get Lionheart flashbacks. It looks very stale and generic. Can't say I'd be surprised if it ends up receiving a high-60s/low-70s metascore.

 

"Generic"doesn't need to be bad.  I would like to play a good adventure for a change and the trolls already look charming over-the-top.

 

 

"Generic" doesn't need to be bad but at this point in the venture it is, because there needs to be something that motivates me into following its progress and eventually acquiring it. It can be a really good example of a traditional high fantasy RPG, but I can only know that after I play it and so far I'm not seeing a hook that might tell me it's worth starting in the first place (aside from some questionable brand confidence in Pathfinder and Avellone).

[Harry Easter]

 

 

I was mildly optimistic about this before, but looking at some of the above footage I can't help but get Lionheart flashbacks. It looks very stale and generic. Can't say I'd be surprised if it ends up receiving a high-60s/low-70s metascore.

"Generic"doesn't need to be bad. I would like to play a good adventure for a change and the trolls already look charming over-the-top. Writing looks also good and the "sitting on the throne" - part seems to be fun. So thumps up, that the Kickstarter will be a success.

 

But I have still a question: aren't there Aliens in Pathfinder? It would be fun, if we could plunder a spaceship, just for the pulpy weirdness-factor .

It actually does. Ustaluv has your lovecraftian aliens, Mana wastes has your "Mars attack" aliens, then alot are sprinkled around the world with the name "outsiders" type.

Mana wastes are where u wanna go with advanced technology

 

 

This reads completey bonkers ... I demand a full dungeon with this creatures ^^!

 

 

@algroth

 

Fair point, we can only wait and hope. At least we finally get one big Stronghold - Quest as the Mainquest. I have hoped for this since NWN2.

[Stratagemini]

Let me ease your mind by transferring over my collection of what we know from the Paizo Forums (they make Pathfinder as a tabletop game):

 

Regarding the Kickstarter: 

-The game will be published in 2018 regardless whether the Kickstarter is successful or not. 

-The Kickstarter is Live and can be found Here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-kingmaker/ 

-The kickstarter is an attempt to add "more companions, more depth to the companions, more dungeons and wilderness to explore, … and more new quests and content by famous Pathfinder authors and RPG authors." also more original music, and more voiceover. Basically it exists solely to fund extra cool stuff for the game. 

-Mass combat is a late kickstarter stretch goal since it requires a lot of assets. 

-To make up for Mass Combat's absence the PCs get to do cool stuff like infiltrate behind enemy lines. Making alliances is expected to give you different army options if they are able to implement mass combat. 

- Rest is the first planned Kickstarter stretch Goal. During rest periods, players will be able to send companions out to hunt, thus reducing the need to buy rations, and will be able to set traps and alarms. They'll also be able to assign companions to guard against random attack. 

-Both OS X and Linux Releases are Kickstarter stretch Goals. 

-Additional Classes and Races from other sourcebooks will be revealed in the Kickstarter and in the form of stretch goals. 

-The Initial goal of the Kickstarter is to make the Kingdom system more awesome. See Kingdom section for more details. 

-Archetypes are a stretch Goal. 

-New Locations are a Stretch goal. 

-An epic Dungeon is a stretch goal. 

-Custom companions (like in pillars of Eternity) may be a stretch goal if there's interest in it from backers.

 

Regarding the Base Game: 

-The game is Single Player only. Multiplayer and DM tools are being looked at as late game stretch Goals. 

-The base game (un-kickstarted) is both mostly complete and includes all 6 AP Modules. The whole story is there with details being Fleshed out by Chris Avellone. 

-A capstone is planned possibly taking characters to level 20. We do not know if this is a kickstarter plan, or a base game plan. 

-You can build and develop a kingdom of our own, this is in the base game. The Kickstarter will make this better. From people who played the Demo, There are already some cool kingdom events. 

-The game will include diplomats from neighbors, including Brevoy and Irrisen (and possibly Mendev?). If you make alliances, that could unlock different buildings for your kingdom. There will be allies available for every alignment. 

-The game is run on an engine developed using the Unity engine. It is Isometric in look and feel. 

-There will be plenty of side-quests. 

-You will be able to be evil, but it will be a cruel and cunning "smart evil" such as talking two enemies into killing each other, rather than just asking for more money as a quest reward. 

-The base game includes a forty hour main storyline, and forty to eighty to forty hours of fun side content. 

-There will be a lot of new content unique to this version of the Stolen Lands -- just like it would be in any DM's version. 

-The game "will have a certain degree of linearity: just like in the table-top game, some challenges will arise, and it would be up to you how you'll tackle them. You can't avoid being the baron(ess), then the king/queen, since it's the premise of the game. However, you'll be free to explore the Stolen Lands, find lots of events unrelated to the main course of events, and choose how to act there. So, you're guaranteed to meet the persons you can see on the covers of the Adventure Path books, but you'll meet them inside a large sandbox." 

-Game spans Levels 1 - 20. 

-All 20 Core Deities are in.

 

Character Creation: 

-The Game includes all the races and Classes from the Core Rulebook. It also includes Alchemist and Inquisitor. The Rogue is from Pathfinder Unchained, the Barbarian unchained but can choose between normal and Unchained Rage, the Monk is as yet undecided. 

-Arcane Trickster is in the game already, other Prestige classes are planned as well. 

-There are already more than 15 spells to choose from for each of the three first spell levels, with more to come. There will be over 300 spells total by the time the game is launched. 

-Bardic masterpieces are in. 

-There are around 10 Animal Companions in the base game. 

-There are around 10 Familiars in the base game. No word either way on Red Pandas. I remain hopeful. 

-There will be more than 300 feats. 

-There will be NO Grippli, not even as a stretch goal, due to licensing issues since Grippli are WotC IP. 

-Since there is no mounted combat, Cavaliers seem vanishingly unlikely. Similarly, Paladin Mount bonds. 

-There are pregenerated builds and recommendations for all the choices and options. 

-The current plan for Character Creation is point buy. The Devs have stated that they may also consider rolling characters as an optional alternative.

 

Multiplayer and Modding: 

-Base game is Single Player only. 

-While DM Tools and Multiplayer were floated as possible stretch goals early on, the Devs want to focus on making a good Single Player game first and foremost and so they don't want to promise that they will be available.

 

Regarding Companions: 

-There are either 10 or 11 Companions in the Base Game. 

-Companion characters are a mix of New characters, iconic Pathfinder characters, and characters already existing in the AP. 

-Amiri, the Iconic Barbarian, is a companion with a lot of backstory and events happening around her throughout the game. 

-Jubilost Narthropple is a companion. He a cantankerous gnome, is kind of a jerk, and you can fail to recruit him if you screw up your attempt to help him out with his wagon. He's also a character from the original AP. 

-Valerie is a blonde haired Human Woman from Brevoy. She is also a Fighter who Worships Gorum, and a failed Paladin of Shelyn. 

-A halfling that looks suspiciously like Lem is a companion. 

-A bard is a companion. He decides to join you because he wants to record your story. This companion has not been seen yet and may or may not be the halfling. 

-Octavia is a female Half-Elf wizard/rogue/arcane trickster. 

-There is a Blonde male who looks like an Elven inquisitor of Sarenrae. 

-There is a Half-Orc who definitely looks like a Magus (or maybe he's the bard)? 

- There is what looks like either a Taldan or Ulfen Human male Fighter. 

-There is an either Garundi or Mwangi man in light armor. 

-Finally, there is what I believe looks like a Tian Woman, but others tell me looks like Jiselle the iconic Swashbuckler. 

-There will be companion Romance, but it isn't the only relationship option. This Includes LGBTQ romance options. 

-Companions can disagree with you, leave you, and even turn on you if they don't like you. They do NOT need to be in your party for this to happen. Companions are living people and don't stop existing just because you leave them home. 

-The story can change considerably depending on your party composition. 

-Each companion has an expandable novel style bio that expands as you learn more about them and progress in the game. 

-You can take 5 Companions with you in a party at one time. 

-You can level up your companions based on your own preferences, even changing their classes if you wish, there is however a suggested path, and you can have them auto-level if you wish instead. 

-You will also be able to choose from several AI behaviours for your party members, allowing them to use spells and abilities or spend resources on their own. 

-Each companion will have one or several levels in a predetermined class when you meet them. You can level them any way you wish from there on out, but their "starting class" is preset.

 

Mechanics: 

-Combat format is Real Time with Pause. There's going to be an option for auto-pausing combat at the beginning of each "turn", essentially making it quasi-turn-based. "Turns" last approximately three seconds. 

-The character sheet is mostly the same, with the same ability scores and skills (though they lumped together some less-used skills to avoid ranks waste). 

-Combat includes: initiative, attacks of opportunity, sneak attacks, Trip, Power Attack (as a toggle), Fighting Defensively, Spontaneous casting of heal spells, and Channeling positive energy. 

-Feats include many books beyond core, and include Elemental Spell Focus, and Evocation Spell Focus. 

-Perception is a Skill in this game and allows you to spot Loot. 

-The game currently includes a comprehensive Alignment meter which plays a significant role in the game. There are a lot of choices that shift your alignment towards one of the nine possible, and your current alignment sometimes affects the way NPC react to you. 

-There is No Crafting, instead there's a Royal Artisans system that will make magic items (and even Artifacts) for you. 

-you can either auto-select the best party member for a skill check, or manually select who you want to attempt it. 

-Difficulty levels are: Core Rules (similar to tabletop Pathfinder but real time, not turn based), adapted rules (less deadly for less experienced, crits deadliness reduced), story mode (really simple combat), Iron man (tougher monsters, just one save that overwrites itself so accept your mistakes), and custom (for example, core rules with reduced crits). 

-The level up screen will suggest options to you sort of like Amazon's "If you liked X you might also like Y." 

-Wings will be in the system, and they will do something cool "we instead may, for example, give a sorcerer an ability to create strong winds and push the enemies away with a flap of his wings or will allow him to reposition himself on the battlefield by flying up and landing elsewhere." 

-The AI can help you control the characters in battle. 

-There will be no Flying in Combat or Mounted Combat. 

-Stats will be Paint Buy by default with an option to have rolled stats due to backer demand.

-This update can tell you more.

 

The Kingdom: 

-There are playable companions as well as NPCs you can assign to kingdom roles (from Ultimate Campaign), with enough choices for 2-3 options for each role. 

-Advisers will give advice based on their personality. this may not be the best advice. You will have to interpret it. 

-Expanding The Kingdom is the initial goal of the Kickstarter. 

-You can add more than 14 regions to your kingdom. 

-There are 300 Kingdom Events and 100 Kingdom Projects. 

-You can ally with outside Factions, there are 9 allies currently, one for each alignment. these include the Witches of Irrisen. They'll be walking around the streets of your capitol. 

-The Kickstarter aims to: 

--Make the Kingdom's appearance reflect your alignment and choices. 

--Let you recruit royal artisans to your kingdom that make you cool stuff (including Artifacts). 

--Add more responsiveness to your choices (for example saving a troll family could let you unlock a Troll Bridge building and a Legendary club they make for you, and how you solve problems would unlock different rewards for them). 

--Add randomized Kingdom events that make your kingdom different in every playthrough. 

-Kingdom Roles will be similar to Ultimate campaign, but with fewer roles for less redundancy. 

-Your state is a barony at first with some of the roles absent, but they will become available as your state upgrades to a kingdom.

-This Update can tell you more. 

 

Miscellaneous Stuff: 

-Owlcat is in close contact with Paizo in developing this. They're also running 4 simultaneous Kingmaker campaigns. 

-Character sheet screens are super detailed. 

-Tooltips exist which provide Golarion and Pathfinder-based lore. 

-Settings will include "Story Mode," "Core Rules," and something similar to Iron Man Mode (which will only have one save). 

-Initial languages for Localization are: English, German, French, and Russian. More may be available as Stretch goals based on popular demand. 

-Digital Release is planned for GOG and Steam. 

-No matter what Race you play you can choose your Gender and Skin tone. 

-The premium digital version includes some backer-only in-game items (a special cloak, a helmet and a ring, as well as one unique and quirky spell). The regular digital edition comes with a cloak. 

-No news As of yet whether Owlcats (or Kittens) will be a thing in the game. But I hold out hope for a cool Owlkitten pet. 

-There will be an option for the colorblind, and all spoken text will be available in written form (wither in interactions or in logs) for the hearing impaired. 

-Beta is scheduled for the first quarter of 2018. 

-The alpha is planned for fall this year (2017).

-The Boxed version is planned to be DRM-free.

-This is the Update on Map Design

 

System Requirements: 

Minimal system requirements 

Video: Intel HD Graphics 3000 

CPU: Intel Celeron 1037U @ 1.80GHz 

RAM: 4 Gb 

OS: Win 7 

Resolution: 1366 x 768 

Recommended system requirements 

Video: ATI Radeon HD 5770/GeForce GTX 960M 

CPU: Intel Core i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz 

RAM: 8 Gb 

OS: Win 7 

Resolution: 1920 x 1080

[Harry Easter]

Thanks! That IS very informative! But now I'm curious about the deities: do they work like the ones from D&D or are they implented in another way?

[Stratagemini]

Thanks! That IS very informative! But now I'm curious about the deities: do they work like the ones from D&D or are they implented in another way?

Deities work in two ways, They'll be present in your temples and stuff for your kingdom, and they're implemented (for certain) in classes like Clerics, Inquisitors, and possibly Paladins. Beyond that I don't know. 

 

The actual deities are at the very least the "Core 20" they're by and large different deities from D&D save for Asmodeus. Are you asking about what Deities there are and what they do/are like? or how they'll be implemented mechanically for each of the classes?

[Harry Easter]

The actual deities are at the very least the "Core 20" they're by and large different deities from D&D save for Asmodeus. Are you asking about what Deities there are and what they do/are like? or how they'll be implemented mechanically for each of the classes?

 

 

 

 

The second part, please.

[Stratagemini]

The second part, please.

 

 

Okay, So I don't know everything about how things are going to be implemented (since they haven't revealed it all), but at the very least for Clerics and Inquisitors your deity controls what Domains and Inquisitions (respectively) you have access to as well as whether you channel Positive or Negative energy (for Clerics). You still need to be within 1 step of your Deity's alignment or else you'll lose access to those class features. 

 

You may have noticed that I didn't mention Turning Undead. that's gone now. Clerics can channel bursts of Positive energy (either to heal the living or to harm undead) or Negative Energy (to Harm the living or Heal undead) based on their alignment instead. It's much more useful.

 

Also more useful are domains. You still get Domain spells at each level and 2 Domains based on your Deity's portfolio. Domains ALSO grant two powers; one at 1st level which is usually some sort of attack usable up to 1/2 your cleric level per day, like an acid dart, a melee touch attack, or a bonus you can convey to a creature by touching them; and a more powerful ability at either 6th or 8th level (for example the "Good" Domain can turn a weapon into a Holy weapon for a number of rounds equal to half their cleric level per day, and the "Knowledge Domain" can use Clairaudience/Clairvoyance a number of rounds per day equal to their cleric level as a spell-like ability).  You can also choose from your deity's sub domains to swap domain powers and spells around a bit in pathfinder, but I'm not sure if those are/will be implemented in Kingmaker.

 

Inquisitions are basically domains with more powerful abilities, but no domain spells.

 

There exist variant Paladin codes for every deity that paladins can serve (All Lawful Good, Neutral Good, and Lawful Neutral Deities) but we don't yet know if these have been implemented.

 

Also Deities don't have Hit-points and cannot be killed in the pathfinder system (though demi-gods like Demon lords can be).

 

Deities are also relevant for Warpriests, and Antipaladins (think Blackguard, but as a full class instead of a prestige). None of these classes have been confirmed to be in the game yet, but since they do plan extra classes as Stretch Goals, they might end up there.

 

Warpriests have Blessings, which are like Inquisitions, but grant abilities at level 1 and Level 10, and have different abilities that they grant than Inquisitions.

 

Anti-Paladins also have Anti-Paladin codes for various deities they can serve.

[rjshae]

-There is No Crafting, instead there's a Royal Artisans system that will make magic items (and even Artifacts) for you.

 

I definitely like this one. Dump the crafting skills and hire the masters to handle it.

[Stratagemini]

First Stretch goal just announced. 2nd is clearly "Magus"

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-kingmaker/posts/1912108

[Harry Easter]

@Stratagemini

 

Thar reads complex but interesting. I guess it will be just the cleric for this game, but thanks! Maybe I will play cleric in my first playthrough.

[LittleRose]

First Stretch goal just announced. 2nd is clearly "Magus"

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-kingmaker/posts/1912108

I love it. It reminds me of Realms of Arkania, but with even more options.