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"You start with the ship". After a brief cinematic of Eothas animating the statue and wrecking everything up, sucking your soul and leaving you unconcious and level 1, you wake up in the cellar of your ship on the wrecked courtyard of Caed Nua. You walk out and see the staue-servant just standing there. "What is this?" You ask. "While you were unconcious I arranged for this ship to be brough here. Eothas said he's going to Deadfire Archipelago for wreck-swimming vacations. Go find him there". Without giving it much thought, you go and find Pallegina and Aloth and pull the ship in the sea. Onwards to the Deadfire!

Hey dude this post is total BS.

 

You go to find Eder before you find the other two.  Aloth and Pallegina alone could never pull the ship to sea.

 

You're totally right! How did I forget Eder? He'll tie a rope around his pipe and he'll pull it all alone with his teeth.

Edited by Sedrefilos
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It's still possible that Eder could join you, just later. I'm sure there are fast mail carrying ships that carry messages across the sea or some other method of sending messages cross-continent or cross-ocean. So, he could still plausibly join by way of the Watcher sending off a missive, which would take maybe 3-5 months (I think Maneha said or one of her endings said it took three months to get from Dyrwood to Rauatai, though that could have been with favorable winds), and then you get a response just ahead of his arrival somewhere (Neketaka probably) that he is on his way and you meet him up to a month later.

 

Also, this thread should be renamed to something else as it's kind of become "PoE2 general discussion/speculation" now that we've dropped the whole ydwin thing.

He could just show up in an epilogue "Hey, I heard Eothas got resurrected and I travelled all the way here to finally find out... oh, he is dead already...?"

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Only problem with grabbing Eder is that in one of his endings, he returns to the Aedyre empire (which is back accross the ocean). Though most people who want him as a companion will most likely do one of the other two endings, Obsidian does have to account for the 'doesn't finish quest' ending.

That isn't any issue.  This game takes place years after the events of Eternity 1, regardless of how Eder (or anyone else) ends up, it won't be hard for Obsidian to come up with a reason for the three returning companions to all be visiting Caed Nua at the same time.  It isn't like you aren't all old friends, and Caed Nua is located at a cross roads.

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Only problem with grabbing Eder is that in one of his endings, he returns to the Aedyre empire (which is back accross the ocean). Though most people who want him as a companion will most likely do one of the other two endings, Obsidian does have to account for the 'doesn't finish quest' ending.

That isn't any issue.  This game takes place years after the events of Eternity 1, regardless of how Eder (or anyone else) ends up, it won't be hard for Obsidian to come up with a reason for the three returning companions to all be visiting Caed Nua at the same time.  It isn't like you aren't all old friends, and Caed Nua is located at a cross roads.

 

Won't Edér and Pallegina get soul-sucked down to first level as well? That must mean they're at Caed Nua when the event happens. Heck, I'll bet that Edér sets things in motion, being a worshipper of Eothas.

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Only problem with grabbing Eder is that in one of his endings, he returns to the Aedyre empire (which is back accross the ocean). Though most people who want him as a companion will most likely do one of the other two endings, Obsidian does have to account for the 'doesn't finish quest' ending.

That isn't any issue.  This game takes place years after the events of Eternity 1, regardless of how Eder (or anyone else) ends up, it won't be hard for Obsidian to come up with a reason for the three returning companions to all be visiting Caed Nua at the same time.  It isn't like you aren't all old friends, and Caed Nua is located at a cross roads.

 

Won't Edér and Pallegina get soul-sucked down to first level as well? That must mean they're at Caed Nua when the event happens. Heck, I'll bet that Edér sets things in motion, being a worshipper of Eothas.

 

 

And Aloth.

 

You know, you're totally right on that point, those three will have to somehow be explained as being back at level 1 AS WELL as the Watcher. The other companions are totally new and would be fine being at whatever your level is when you meet them, but the three old ones will still have to be explained somehow.

Edited by smjjames
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Josh answered a question on his tumblr a while ago saying they won't provide an explanation.

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Josh answered a question on his tumblr a while ago saying they won't provide an explanation.

 

I guess that's for the better as they'd have to explain all the permutations. Game sequels, chains, etc, don't explain why the main character is at level 1 either.

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Josh answered a question on his tumblr a while ago saying they won't provide an explanation.

Wait wut?  They have to give some sort of explanation as to why they were visiting Caed Nua. It doesn't have to be anything super complex, but you can't just say "Eder, Pallegina, and Aloth just coincidentally were visiting that day when...."

Edited by Karkarov

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Josh answered a question on his tumblr a while ago saying they won't provide an explanation.

Wait wut?  They have to give some sort of explanation as to why they were visiting Caed Nua. It doesn't have to be anything super complex, but you can't just say "Eder, Pallegina, and Aloth just coincidentally were visiting that day when...."

 

 

Explaining why they're level one is different from explaining why they're at Caed Nua.

 

Would be nice if we had a link to the question and Josh answering said question as the context of the question matters,

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None of the companions are at Caed Nua. Aloth and Pallegina are met in the Deadfire and Edér joins up with the Watcher after Eothas smashes up the keep. So what isn't explained is why they're a lower level.

http://www.mmorpg.com/pillars-of-eternity/interviews/pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire-returning-companions-and-continuing-saves-1000011515

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/156540200006/hi-josh-as-we-already-know-at-the-beginning-of#notes

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Only problem with grabbing Eder is that in one of his endings, he returns to the Aedyre empire (which is back accross the ocean). Though most people who want him as a companion will most likely do one of the other two endings, Obsidian does have to account for the 'doesn't finish quest' ending.

That isn't any issue.  This game takes place years after the events of Eternity 1, regardless of how Eder (or anyone else) ends up, it won't be hard for Obsidian to come up with a reason for the three returning companions to all be visiting Caed Nua at the same time.  It isn't like you aren't all old friends, and Caed Nua is located at a cross roads.

 

Do we have an information on when we meet returning companions. While it seems logical to me to team up with Eder before heading to Deadfire, I always thought we will meet Pallegina and Aloth in Deadfire itself. Aloth will be there, due to his ties to Leaden Key, and Pallegina will appear there due to her ties (or ex-ties) to Vailian Republics. Having them spaced out, and doing their own thing before teaming up with you just feels more natural to me.

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Well we'll have to play the game to find out were and when we meet them. Why should we care right now?

 

As for their levels, as Sawyer said, there was no explanation about their levels in Pillars 1 either ;)

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Well we'll have to play the game to find out were and when we meet them. Why should we care right now?

 

As for their levels, as Sawyer said, there was no explanation about their levels in Pillars 1 either ;)

Yeah, narratively those two situations aren't the same. Encountering them for the first time, their level can be *anything* and it makes sense because you don't know what they were up to before you met them.

 

In the second game, not so much. If their level is under max, something has changed and it requires and explanation to make any logical sense.

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To be fair returning companions are always gonna cause some weirdness. With the new relationship system you're gonna have companions who happily traveled with you in the first game suddenly have problems with you acting exactly the same as you did last time.

Edited by Baltic

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Well it makes sense for Pallegina to be in the Deadfire regardless considering the politics at play.  Aloth, well it is easy to invent an excuse.  Eder apparently meets you before you even go to Deadfire, so we can assume he showed up because of the Eothas attack.

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Well it makes sense for Pallegina to be in the Deadfire regardless considering the politics at play.  Aloth, well it is easy to invent an excuse.  Eder apparently meets you before you even go to Deadfire, so we can assume he showed up because of the Eothas attack.

 

Unless Eder went to Aedyre to live with his parents, but I suppose that could be explained away by saying that he got annoyed with living with his parents and moved back.

 

And yes, there will be some mental dissonance because, as Baltic said, there will be the new relationship thing.

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Is really that important why are companions level 1? Who cares? The game starts from level 1, so they have to be level 1. I never thought of that; I assumed they'll be level 1 untill I saw people complaining about that. It's a gameplay thing. Why is everyone the level they are? Because it makes sense for the game. That's enough. You don't look for logic in these things. I wouldn't care why even the main character startes as level 1 without a story explanation if the concept is "we start over with a new system". Characters and story need explanation, gamey stuff don't :)

Edited by Sedrefilos
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Well we'll have to play the game to find out were and when we meet them. Why should we care right now?

 

As for their levels, as Sawyer said, there was no explanation about their levels in Pillars 1 either ;)

Yeah, narratively those two situations aren't the same. Encountering them for the first time, their level can be *anything* and it makes sense because you don't know what they were up to before you met them.

 

In the second game, not so much. If their level is under max, something has changed and it requires and explanation to make any logical sense.

 

 

Applying logic to addressing levels in RPG narrative doesn't seem like the best approach. I personally don't always look at levels in RPGs as an expression of my characters growing skill, simply my progression through the games difficulty curve. When you play through lets say Witcher 3 as Geralt, you dont really think you helped Geralt greatly increase his skills and prowess with each level? Geralt has at least 2 lifetimes worth of experience on the path, he was a (fictional) badass long before the games narrative kicks in and gives the player agency. 

 

To me addressing changes in relative power from one game to another in narrative is the RPG equivalent of talking about midichlorians in Jedi. I didn't need DBZ power levels for martial space monks in space, I dont need them for my martial monastic in a tropical archipelago.  That being said, I know we will likely face that very writing scenario with the awakening and the subsequent flight of Eothas. I just hope the explanation doesn't go to far beyond that with The Watcher or any companions.

 

"Hey Pallegina whats up? Your soul sure looks weaker since we last saw each other!"

"Hey Watcher, thanks for noticing! Eothas passed my ship doing a perfect breaststroke and stole a piece of my soul along the way. The goddess who reads the levels on my back told me I lost 16 levels! I can't even fit into my high end armor anymore. Your looking lighter around the soul yourself by the way."

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Is really that important why are companions level 1? Who cares? The game starts from level 1, so they have to be level 1. I never thought of that; I assumed they'll be level 1 untill I saw people complaining about that. It's a gameplay thing. Why is everyone the level they are? Because it makes sense for the game. That's enough. You don't look for logic in these things. I wouldn't care why even the main character startes as level 1 without a story explanation if the concept is "we start over with a new system". Characters and story need explanation, gamey stuff don't :)

Well, it is not a big deal to me personally, but I do consider games to me more than a stupid entertainment. And as I am interested in storytelling in games (mostly storytelling via gameplay, not in spite of it) having a gameplay mechanic in a game, just because it is always there, is something I will always criticise. Levelling up is a concept that RPG sequels struggle a lot. From the narrative perspective you want to continue your heroes journey, not repeat it. What if watcher had amnesia at the start of PoE2 and you had to relearn everything from PoE1 again. That would be silly. It is a bit how I feel every time i start from lvl1 in sequels. Even if you explain it, its weak.

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From other RPGs that I've played which have sequels or are sequential, there is no explaination for why you're level one (other than maybe 'years have passed and you got rusty in your skills', but that's a bit of a copout). So, really, it'd be harder and far less critical for Obsidian to explain why you and your old companions are level one.

 

Explaining why the companions just happen to be at Caed Nua or wherever they meet up with you, is far more important story wise than trying to explain why they're level one.

Edited by smjjames
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Well we'll have to play the game to find out were and when we meet them. Why should we care right now?

 

As for their levels, as Sawyer said, there was no explanation about their levels in Pillars 1 either ;)

 

Yeah, narratively those two situations aren't the same. Encountering them for the first time, their level can be *anything* and it makes sense because you don't know what they were up to before you met them.

In the second game, not so much. If their level is under max, something has changed and it requires and explanation to make any logical sense.

 

Applying logic to addressing levels in RPG narrative doesn't seem like the best approach. I personally don't always look at levels in RPGs as an expression of my characters growing skill, simply my progression through the games difficulty curve. When you play through lets say Witcher 3 as Geralt, you dont really think you helped Geralt greatly increase his skills and prowess with each level? Geralt has at least 2 lifetimes worth of experience on the path, he was a (fictional) badass long before the games narrative kicks in and gives the player agency. 

 

To me addressing changes in relative power from one game to another in narrative is the RPG equivalent of talking about midichlorians in Jedi. I didn't need DBZ power levels for martial space monks in space, I dont need them for my martial monastic in a tropical archipelago.  That being said, I know we will likely face that very writing scenario with the awakening and the subsequent flight of Eothas. I just hope the explanation doesn't go to far beyond that with The Watcher or any companions.

 

"Hey Pallegina whats up? Your soul sure looks weaker since we last saw each other!"

"Hey Watcher, thanks for noticing! Eothas passed my ship doing a perfect breaststroke and stole a piece of my soul along the way. The goddess who reads the levels on my back told me I lost 16 levels! I can't even fit into my high end armor anymore. Your looking lighter around the soul yourself by the way."

Well, levelling up system in Witcher3 sucked. It didn't benefit game all that much (except spacing out content). Gameplay didn't expand beyond what you get at the start of the game. Because of awkward content scaling 2/3 of the game were far too easy, as the game was prepared for you to finish the game, while skipping all additional content. Your Geralt didn't change much no matter which upgrades you chose. If a mechanic doesn't make sense I would argue you shouldn't include it. Witcher3 would work just as well, if not better if RPG systems were abandoned completely. It was more of an action game anyway (combat wise).

 

You can use levelling system as an effective storytelling mechanic - see Baldurs gate, or especially Gothic1&2 (that said "you died and are resurrected back to lvl. 1 in Gothic2 was annoying as well). So yeah, I was a bit disappointed when I learned that we will play Watcher in PoE2 AND go back to lvl1. I can see the benefits of continuing franchise directly, but for me it is creatively weak.

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Is really that important why are companions level 1? Who cares? The game starts from level 1, so they have to be level 1. I never thought of that; I assumed they'll be level 1 untill I saw people complaining about that. It's a gameplay thing. Why is everyone the level they are? Because it makes sense for the game. That's enough. You don't look for logic in these things. I wouldn't care why even the main character startes as level 1 without a story explanation if the concept is "we start over with a new system". Characters and story need explanation, gamey stuff don't :)

Well, it is not a big deal to me personally, but I do consider games to me more than a stupid entertainment. And as I am interested in storytelling in games (mostly storytelling via gameplay, not in spite of it) having a gameplay mechanic in a game, just because it is always there, is something I will always criticise. Levelling up is a concept that RPG sequels struggle a lot. From the narrative perspective you want to continue your heroes journey, not repeat it. What if watcher had amnesia at the start of PoE2 and you had to relearn everything from PoE1 again. That would be silly. It is a bit how I feel every time i start from lvl1 in sequels. Even if you explain it, its weak.

 

I don't see leveling up as a story progress, only a gameplay progress. The story will continue through the strory not through leveling up. I never thought that rpgs struggle with level-ups from a narrative prespective - only players. I'm perfectly fine with starting at level 1 and it won't mess with my story. If they said that my stronghold was at the White that Wends because they wanted their new story to start from there, that would have been annoying, yes.

Edited by Sedrefilos

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I don't see leveling up as a story progress, only a gameplay progress. The story will continue through the strory not through leveling up. I never thought that rpgs struggle with level-ups from a narrative prespective - only players. I'm perfectly fine with starting at level 1 and it won't mess with my story. If they said that my stronghold was at the White that Wends because they wanted their new story to start from there, that would have been annoying, yes.

 

I agree. People don't have LEVEL 16 written on their foreheads.

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While I agree that levels are predominantly a matter of gameplay contrivance, the broader strokes of what it represents also seem to map into the narrative readily. Regardless of whether the difference between level 14 and level 16, or even level 11 and level 16, is meaningful in narrative terms, the fact that a party which once was a credible threat to ancient dragons (as the Watcher and his/her companions were in Pillars 1) is now suddenly finding an encounter with a stray band of xaurips to be potentially life-threatening to them in turn does seem like something would be considered and addressed within a coherent narrative. And that's without getting into why all those other former companions would have traded out their epic weapons and armor for the starter gear they'll inevitably have when we meet them again.

 

It happens often enough in games that I can overlook it without much trouble, but that only means that I've grown accustomed to shrugging off absurdity at both narrative and gameplay levels for the sake of convenience.

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Is really that important why are companions level 1? Who cares? The game starts from level 1, so they have to be level 1. I never thought of that; I assumed they'll be level 1 untill I saw people complaining about that. It's a gameplay thing. Why is everyone the level they are? Because it makes sense for the game. That's enough. You don't look for logic in these things. I wouldn't care why even the main character startes as level 1 without a story explanation if the concept is "we start over with a new system". Characters and story need explanation, gamey stuff don't :)

Well, it is not a big deal to me personally, but I do consider games to me more than a stupid entertainment. And as I am interested in storytelling in games (mostly storytelling via gameplay, not in spite of it) having a gameplay mechanic in a game, just because it is always there, is something I will always criticise. Levelling up is a concept that RPG sequels struggle a lot. From the narrative perspective you want to continue your heroes journey, not repeat it. What if watcher had amnesia at the start of PoE2 and you had to relearn everything from PoE1 again. That would be silly. It is a bit how I feel every time i start from lvl1 in sequels. Even if you explain it, its weak.

 

I don't see leveling up as a story progress, only a gameplay progress. The story will continue through the strory not through leveling up. I never thought that rpgs struggle with level-ups from a narrative prespective - only players. I'm perfectly fine with starting at level 1 and it won't mess with my story. If they said that my stronghold was at the White that Wends because they wanted their new story to start from there, that would have been annoying, yes.

 

 

Yes, but while it's the beginning of Pillar of Eternity 2's story, this isn't the "beginning of the story". Pillars, like BG and Mass Effect, is *one* long narrative with *one* single protagonist telling *one* story, broken up into multiple discrete narrative segments (with time skips etc). This isn't always true of sequels, but it's true in *these* cases.

 

So when you deal with Aloth, Eder, and Pallegina being all newbies in Pillars 2, it's not a case of whether it is or isn't narratively okay for the story to begin in such a way. It's a question of "Why did these incredibly powerful people who worked with me to take out one of the oldest and most powerful ciphers the world has ever known, and who helped to kill one of the most famous and most powerful archmages in existence (whose skull I now carry as a trophy of our achievement together), suddenly change and become unable to kill a squirrel?"

 

Gameplay and story don't *have* to be separate; there's no rule saying that. It's perfectly possible to work gameplay elements into the narrative; even outside of that, it literally only takes five seconds to come up with a bull**** handwave and toss it in, to explain why the characters changed. To not do that--to literally just say "Nope, we're not gonna bother to explain it"....well, that just stinks of lazy storytelling.

 

Pillars isn't Witchers 3; these aren't characters who started out killing archmages and fighting dragons. In game-time, the story takes *months* to unfold; your characters are *actually* gaining skill and power over time, and this is *loosely* reflected in the leveling system. No, it doesn't track in any way exact; but it's a general representation of a gain in skill. That's why you also gain *SKILL* points as you level, and those skill points allow you to interact narratively with the world through the drawn scenes. As you level, you gain more skill; your higher level allows you to have a narrative effect on the world that is increased as your level increases. It's not direct, but it's very much implied that your level reflects an actual rise in skill within the setting of the game. Heck, your *level* is what dictates when the Steward tells you that you are or are not capable of dealing with the Cragholdt Bluffs situation; again, an indirect but clearly implied statement that your level is a reflection of a real increase of skill within the setting.

 

And in the sequel that's just gone in your allies, with no explanation. This isn't jut a gameplay problem; this is a narrative problem, a *story* problem. It creates plotholes when I'm walking around with Concelhauts skull, on the ship that was purchased by the person who told me we're high enough in skill to kill Concelhaut, and both me and the guy who helped me kill him and the two friends who helped us out on that mission are *all* whining about how tough this xaurip is.

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