Politics 2017 part V

[Leferd]

Over dinner, Trump demanded pledge of loyalty. Comey refused.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/us/politics/trump-comey-firing.html

 

This is nuts.

[Gromnir]

 

 

wE KNOW mexicans ar egreta at making countries greta - it explains why so many of them flee Mexico. Mexicans know that Mexico sucks hence why they are desperate to become Amerikans. Amerika > Mexico. PERIOD.

sadly, such simple reasoning would lead to the conclusion o' mexico>USA.

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016/01/05/more-mexicans-leave-the-us-than-come-across-the-border

 

obviously the issues ain't as simple as vol believes, but for many mexican immigrants to the USA, illegal or otherwise, mexico has become an increasing attractive option. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Fake news straw man. Trump didn't say anything about "net Mexican migration". The professor is putting words in his mouth, then claiming Trump is wrong. Plus the author is obviously an open borders advocate, and left leaning Pew studies are always suspect. It's also notable that they chose the period of the worst US economy for their study, when many people lost their jobs and had to move back to Mexico where cost of living is much less.

 

Edit: US takes 1 million permanent immigrants each year and 20% of all the world migrants, yet even people who qualify to immigrate in Mexico have to wait 20 years!

For example, married children of U.S. citizens from Mexico must wait more than 20 years for a visa to become available, and Filipino siblings of U.S. citizens currently wait about 25 years.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/why-don’t-they-just-get-line So yeah, no one wants to come here!

 

you clear don't understand strawman if you are raising a trump issue in the present circumstances.  vol didn't mention trump.  Gromnir didn't mention trump.  vol suggested the flow o' mexicans coming into america shows usa>mexico.  we noted how such reasoning would lead to the conclusion o' mexico>usa 'cause mexican immigrants are leaving the usa at a higher rate than they is arriving, and the linked study claims such has been the case for a number o' years.  wanna talk' bout trump instead? make up an irrelevant issue and then attempt to refute it? *chuckle*  clear don't get straw man.

 

don't like pew?  fine. refute. insofar as determining rates o' immigration, the study (studies) seemed to rely on US census bureau, US department of homeland security data and the mexican government's ENADID. whatever fuzzy numbers came into play appear to be related to the hypothesized reasons for the reversal of immigration patterns.  got an issue with the methodology?  go for it.

 

regardless, the the data clear covered more than simple the recent economic downturn.  suggest otherwise means you yet again didn't bother to read or didn't understand.

 

 

Over dinner, Trump demanded pledge of loyalty. Comey refused.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/us/politics/trump-comey-firing.html

 

This is nuts.

 

yeah, 'course what will have trump particular riled is how folks in the fbi clear leaked such info to the nytimes.  gonna need to investigate... right after he gets done with the mike pence voter fraud probe. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Valsuelm]

Over dinner, Trump demanded pledge of loyalty. Comey refused.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/us/politics/trump-comey-firing.html

 

This is nuts.

 

Fictional or not, its' a non-story. A poopy act in a predictably bad dog and pony show.

 

Firing Comey was a no-brainer decision no matter who was elected that's been as inevitable as a sunrise since last year.

 

 

[Leferd]

Donald Trump fired the man who refused to pledge his loyalty while leading the agency investigating his campaign for impropriety and collusion with a foreign adversary that engaged in attacks on this country's election process.

 

The standard of ethics as demonstrated by this Administration is beyond abnormal, even by the usual Washington dysfunction. This has the stench of Banana Republic-like authoritarianism. Except on the scale of World Superpower.

 

To say that this is a non-story is ridiculous.

[Gromnir]

 

 

To say that this is a non-story is ridiculous.

would be a relative non-story if it happened on january 20 or 21. assume trump cleaned house and puts his guys in at fbi and epa and doj? no surprise.  woulda' expected predictable democrat (and a few republicans) grumbling if comey were fired in late january. relative non-story.

 

'course the situation today ain't what it was on january 20.  the President is contradicting his press people and admitting the russian investigation motivated the firing.  got yet another story o' how trump s'posed demanded loyalty from folks who swear an oath to the Constitution rather than to the president.  the flynn situation were an early misstep for the wh, made worse by recent revelations regarding how the President had considerable warning regarding flynn's... issues. the trump campaign ties to russians won't die. etc.

 

the past matters.  what trump said yesterday or last week or last year matters.  the courts keep reminding the wh o' how the past is not instant irrelevant. 

 

yeah, if comey had been fired back in january, some folks woulda' cried foul as the russian investigation had already begun.  even so, such firing coulda' been explained away as part o' the largely impersonal changes made during trump's transition.  woulda' been a relative non-story.  however, to pretend as if may 11, 2017 is actual late january of 2017 is self-serving, at best.  am not certain why folks wanna view the comey firing as some kinda insular event; it ain't. clinton woulda' fired.  trump coulda' fired.  so what? 

 

comey being fired because of the russian investigation is a story.  trump demanding comey loyalty, three times like some kinda ritual, is a story. the constant adjustments o' the wh narrative regarding the firing o' comey is also a story.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps is kinda amusing, but Gromnir has never been convinced there were a story regarding the russians and the trump campaign.  the trump folks (not flynn) were often learning on the job and we don't doubt a few o' them had ill-advised, but largely innocent conversations with russians who were under surveillance. to us, the notion o' some kinda coordination 'tween the trump campaign and moscow seems a bit farfetched.  'course it is the coverups and lies which gets folks in the mostest trouble.  am doubting there is any real russian story insofar as the trump campaign is concerned.  

[Blarghagh]

I just read in an interview that Trump thinks excercise is bad for you, because a person is born with a finite amount of energy and excercise uses that up. XD

 

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/5/9/15590962/donald-trump-thinks-exercise-will-kill-you

 

A choice quote from the article:

 

 

 

‘‘All my friends who work out all the time, they’re going for knee replacements, hip replacements — they’re a disaster,’’ he said. He exerts himself fully by standing in front of an audience for an hour, as he just did. ‘‘That’s exercise.’”

 

How'd this guy get in office!? Oh right, people VOTED for him.

[Chilloutman]

I just read in an interview that Trump thinks excercise is bad for you, because a person is born with a finite amount of energy and excercise uses that up. XD

 

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/5/9/15590962/donald-trump-thinks-exercise-will-kill-you

 

A choice quote from the article:

 

 

 

‘‘All my friends who work out all the time, they’re going for knee replacements, hip replacements — they’re a disaster,’’ he said. He exerts himself fully by standing in front of an audience for an hour, as he just did. ‘‘That’s exercise.’”

 

How'd this guy get in office!? Oh right, people VOTED for him.

 

well that is actually not too off, most top athletes have big problems with joints and such - much sooner than avarage persons. There is sarcastic saying in Czech - 'With sports toward permanent invalidity'

[Blarghagh]

Top athletes =/= doing basic excercise. If that's your benchmark for not being "too off" then I dunno what to tell ya. It's like saying it's okay the perp of a murder spree got six months in prison because so did the dude who suckerpunched someone.

[Chilloutman]

Top athletes =/= doing basic excercise. If that's your benchmark for not being "too off" then I dunno what to tell ya. It's like saying it's okay the perp of a murder spree got six months in prison because so did the dude who suckerpunched someone.

I am not saying I completely agree with that statement but risk of injury which can have long term impact on your health is much higher even if you are not top athlete

[Blarghagh]

Yes, but in the same way that the risk of falling off the stairs is higher when you stop taking the elevator.

[Guard Dog]

Oddly enough, I interviewed a brewer in Ensenata who grew up in San Diego and had recently moved his whole family to Mexico for the business. There are also a lot of Americans who buy land in Mexico, slowly build houses on it, and then retire there.

 

The whole us vs. them mentality people like to have with Mexico is bizarre. As Trump said, half a trillion in trade every year and 1 million people cross that border every day. 

Especially around Cabo San Lucas. Have you ever been there? It's like someone moved Bolinas down to Mexico only everyone speaks English. But it is turning into a tourist trap which will ruin it i'm sure..

[Amentep]

Great Wall of China actually worked great for a very long time. China fell through betrayal, not because the wall was breached. Much like we're daily betrayed by our own government.

 

Edit:

 

Iyo, the lifetime costs to dealing with Mexico's "societal problems", the very same problems that Mexico itself cant fix, would be less than the one time cost of a wall?

 

To be fair though, there is no 'one time cost of a wall'. Once built, it'll have to be maintained just like any other structure or it'll fall apart eventually due to weather, seismic events, etc..

 

EDIT: took so long to respond I was beaten to it.  For shame.

 

Would be dwarfed by the cost savings in manpower needed to patrol a wall instead of open space. And the cost of the wall and its maintenance are dwarfed by what illegal aliens are costing us now.

 

 

I'm not saying there couldn't be cost savings in other areas.  There could also be unexpected cost increases - particularly if people willingly try to undermine/destroy sections of the wall. 

 

I was just challenging the idea that it was a one time fixed cost; build it and forget it.

[Guard Dog]

This Russia election thing is a steaming pile of BS. Hacking into the DNC is NOT... I repeat NOT NOT NOT "stealing the election". The DNC is PRIVATE ENTITY. They are in no way involved in administering elections nor tallying results. If we found out they were, now THAT would be a story.

 

So yes they did have their servers hacked and a bunch of embarrassing correspondence leaked. Sucks to be them. It is a crime and it's reasonable to refer it to the FBI. But here's the thing, their IT security is THEIR business. Get a better server and security next time. And if your e-mails embarrass you perhaps the solution is to exercise a modicum of professionalism in how you handle yourself and how you treat and speak of your colleagues, opponents, and those dirty peasants (voters) you want to vote for you but think you are better than. Don't be a jerk, don't collude with the media to sabotage one of your own candidates or rig a debate and this wouldn't be an issue.

 

And none of it resulted in the theft of a single vote. To "steal" a US election would be practically impossible. There are 50 states, each with their own system, many unique to that state. There are 3144 counties in the US, each with it's own election staff. Even if some of them could be hacked (itself a near impossibility since most use paper ballots) you couldn't get enough. You couldn't stuff the ballot boxes because if more votes are cast than there are voters it will be noticed. Even if you were using shill voters you would need tens of thousands to turn even close a state.

 

If the Russians did hack the DNC, fine. Do something about that. But don't call is "stealing the election" it's nothing of the sort.

[HoonDing]

Trump is the healthiest man on Earth. Just look at him.

[Leferd]

I don't think I, or the informed persons involved with the investigation have made the claim of Russia "stealing the election" or of hacking voting machines and the like.

 

To quote DNI James Clapper's testimony:

 

[Gromnir]

 

Oddly enough, I interviewed a brewer in Ensenata who grew up in San Diego and had recently moved his whole family to Mexico for the business. There are also a lot of Americans who buy land in Mexico, slowly build houses on it, and then retire there.

 

The whole us vs. them mentality people like to have with Mexico is bizarre. As Trump said, half a trillion in trade every year and 1 million people cross that border every day. 

Especially around Cabo San Lucas. Have you ever been there? It's like someone moved Bolinas down to Mexico only everyone speaks English. But it is turning into a tourist trap which will ruin it i'm sure..

 

back when the housing market collapsed ~2008, a few o' our friends who were retiring sudden found their homes worth less than half what they s'posed, and other savings depleted.  couldn't retire comfortable in the usa.  so they moved to mexico.  is apparent a number o' communities south o' the border which sprang up specific to appeal to folks in similar straights. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Meshugger]

If anything, the KGB is quite happy on what they achieved years back. 

[Guard Dog]

@Leferd: OK, influence then. What exactly did they influence? Do you think revealing the Clinton Campaign was colluding with the media or that the DNC was trying to sabotage Sanders came as a surprise to anyone? Do you think finding out Clinton thinking rules don't apply to hear some some kind of earth shattering revelation. Or finding out that Podesta, Mook, Margolis or Palmerei are all snotty **** changed anything? None of that made Trump any more desirable and none of it made Clinton less repulsive. Some 130M votes were cast for those two. I would bet better than half of those were cast against the other candidate rather than for one of them.

 

Substitute in any other... well almost any other candidate from either side and the whole story changes. The man on the street stuff seems to ferret out the dummies but I think most Americans are pretty well informed. Nothing revealed by Wikileaks came as a surprise to anyone. Regardless of where it came from.

 

Heck even if the Russians bought campaign ads it wouldn't have mattered. We are so inoculated to them it's like people living next to an airport. After a time you don't even hear the planes anymore.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

 

 

wE KNOW mexicans ar egreta at making countries greta - it explains why so many of them flee Mexico. Mexicans know that Mexico sucks hence why they are desperate to become Amerikans. Amerika > Mexico. PERIOD.

sadly, such simple reasoning would lead to the conclusion o' mexico>USA.

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016/01/05/more-mexicans-leave-the-us-than-come-across-the-border

 

obviously the issues ain't as simple as vol believes, but for many mexican immigrants to the USA, illegal or otherwise, mexico has become an increasing attractive option. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Fake news straw man. Trump didn't say anything about "net Mexican migration". The professor is putting words in his mouth, then claiming Trump is wrong. Plus the author is obviously an open borders advocate, and left leaning Pew studies are always suspect. It's also notable that they chose the period of the worst US economy for their study, when many people lost their jobs and had to move back to Mexico where cost of living is much less.

 

Edit: US takes 1 million permanent immigrants each year and 20% of all the world migrants, yet even people who qualify to immigrate in Mexico have to wait 20 years!

For example, married children of U.S. citizens from Mexico must wait more than 20 years for a visa to become available, and Filipino siblings of U.S. citizens currently wait about 25 years.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/why-don’t-they-just-get-line So yeah, no one wants to come here!

 

you clear don't understand strawman if you are raising a trump issue in the present circumstances.  vol didn't mention trump.  Gromnir didn't mention trump.  vol suggested the flow o' mexicans coming into america shows usa>mexico.  we noted how such reasoning would lead to the conclusion o' mexico>usa 'cause mexican immigrants are leaving the usa at a higher rate than they is arriving, and the linked study claims such has been the case for a number o' years.  wanna talk' bout trump instead? make up an irrelevant issue and then attempt to refute it? *chuckle*  clear don't get straw man.

 

I said the linked article is strawman because they assume what Trump meant, then argue against that, instead of what he actually said. As far as definitively refuting Pew, I can't do that because there is no credible data available, so they can get away with claiming anything. It's certainly true that many more people want to come here than can get in, which I proved above.

 

regardless, the the data clear covered more than simple the recent economic downturn. suggest otherwise means you yet again didn't bother to read or didn't understand.

It covered 2009-2014, the period of high unemployment and slow growth. Illegal migration surged in 2015 and 2016, and has now fallen like a rock because of the credible threat of enforcement. Edited May 12, 2017 by Wrath of Dagon

[Malcador]

Wonder if they will ever get Trump off Twitter.

[Leferd]

What are the facts?

 

There were two hacking entities known by US Intelligence to have explicit ties to the Kremlin engaged in cyber-attacks targeting the DNC and RNC. Selected documents with a clear preference for one party over the other are then sent to and released by WikiLeaks and other entities that are opposed to establishment interests.

 

The Russian Government also employs a propaganda army of internet trolls and media influencers to engage in information warfare promoting certain candidates and positions that are seen as being more friendly to Russian government interests, while at the same time attacking candidates and supporters in opposition. Where's Oby, btw? I miss that guy.

 

Via the use of hard and soft power, the Kremlin's goal is to disrupt and destabilize adversarial powers that are against the interest of Putin's Russia, i.e., The USA, NATO, and the EU.

 

Exactly how much influence the Kremlin was able to achieve is difficult to quantify, but their actions certainly helped put Brexit and Trump over the top, and helped the National Front in France gain significant traction.

 

If you haven’t done so, read this.

 

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

 

Excerpt:

 

KEY JUDGMENTS

 

Russian efforts to influence the 2016 US presidential election represent the most recent expression of Moscow’s longstanding desire to undermine the US-led liberal democratic order, but these activities demonstrated a significant escalation in directness, level of activity, and scope of effort compared to previous operations. We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We have high confidence in these judgments.

 

· We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trump’s election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him. All three agencies agree with this judgment. CIA and FBI have high confidence in this judgment; NSA has moderate confidence.

 

· Moscow’s approach evolved over the course of the campaign based on Russia’s understanding of the electoral prospects of the two main candidates. When it appeared to Moscow that Secretary Clinton was likely to win the election, the Russian influence campaign began to focus more on undermining her future presidency.

 

· Further information has come to light since Election Day that, when combined with Russian behavior since early November 2016, increases our confidence in our assessments of Russian motivations and goals. Moscow’s influence campaign followed a Russian messaging strategy that blends covert intelligence operations—such as cyber activity—with overt efforts by Russian Government agencies, state-funded media, third-party intermediaries, and paid social media users or “trolls.” Russia, like its Soviet predecessor, has a history of conducting covert influence campaigns focused on US presidential elections that have used intelligence officers and agents and press placements to disparage candidates perceived as hostile to the Kremlin.

 

· Russia’s intelligence services conducted cyber operations against targets associated with the 2016 US presidential election, including targets associated with both major US political parties.

 

· We assess with high confidence that Russian military intelligence (General Staff Main Intelligence Directorate or GRU) used the Guccifer 2.0 persona and DCLeaks.com to release US victim data obtained in cyber operations publicly and in exclusives to media outlets and relayed material to WikiLeaks.

 

· Russian intelligence obtained and maintained access to elements of multiple US state or local electoral boards. DHS assesses that the types of systems Russian actors targeted or compromised were not involved in vote tallying.

 

· Russia’s state-run propaganda machine contributed to the influence campaign by serving as a platform for Kremlin messaging to Russian and international audiences. We assess Moscow will apply lessons learned from its Putin-ordered campaign aimed at the US presidential election to future influence efforts worldwide, including against US allies and their election processes.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Russia was pulling for Trump while the American media was pulling for Clinton. Seems fair to me.

[Leferd]

Russia was pulling for Trump while the American media was pulling for Clinton. Seems fair to me.

So you support hostile Russian activity in undermining American democracy over the free excercise thereof of the press?

 

Glad to know where you stand as an American.

[Chilloutman]

 

Russia was pulling for Trump while the American media was pulling for Clinton. Seems fair to me.

So you support hostile Russian activity in undermining American democracy over the free excercise thereof of the press?

 

Glad to know where you stand as an American.

 

free press, i chuckle a lot

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

 

wE KNOW mexicans ar egreta at making countries greta - it explains why so many of them flee Mexico. Mexicans know that Mexico sucks hence why they are desperate to become Amerikans. Amerika > Mexico. PERIOD.

sadly, such simple reasoning would lead to the conclusion o' mexico>USA.

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016/01/05/more-mexicans-leave-the-us-than-come-across-the-border

 

obviously the issues ain't as simple as vol believes, but for many mexican immigrants to the USA, illegal or otherwise, mexico has become an increasing attractive option. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Fake news straw man. Trump didn't say anything about "net Mexican migration". The professor is putting words in his mouth, then claiming Trump is wrong. Plus the author is obviously an open borders advocate, and left leaning Pew studies are always suspect. It's also notable that they chose the period of the worst US economy for their study, when many people lost their jobs and had to move back to Mexico where cost of living is much less.

 

Edit: US takes 1 million permanent immigrants each year and 20% of all the world migrants, yet even people who qualify to immigrate in Mexico have to wait 20 years!

For example, married children of U.S. citizens from Mexico must wait more than 20 years for a visa to become available, and Filipino siblings of U.S. citizens currently wait about 25 years.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/why-don’t-they-just-get-line So yeah, no one wants to come here!

 

you clear don't understand strawman if you are raising a trump issue in the present circumstances.  vol didn't mention trump.  Gromnir didn't mention trump.  vol suggested the flow o' mexicans coming into america shows usa>mexico.  we noted how such reasoning would lead to the conclusion o' mexico>usa 'cause mexican immigrants are leaving the usa at a higher rate than they is arriving, and the linked study claims such has been the case for a number o' years.  wanna talk' bout trump instead? make up an irrelevant issue and then attempt to refute it? *chuckle*  clear don't get straw man.

 

I said the linked article is strawman because they assume what Trump meant, then argue against that, instead of what he actually said. As far as definitively refuting Pew, I can't do that because there is no credible data available, so they can get away with claiming anything. It's certainly true that many more people want to come here than can get in, which I proved above.

 

regardless, the the data clear covered more than simple the recent economic downturn. suggest otherwise means you yet again didn't bother to read or didn't understand.

It covered 2009-2014, the period of high unemployment and slow growth. Illegal migration surged in 2015 and 2016, and has now fallen like a rock because of the credible threat of enforcement.

 

so, wod indulged in strawman to point out strawman?  *chuckle* regardless, technical the article linked ain't even strawman as the premise were phrased as "if" trump were referencing mexico. is one o' the inherent flaws o' overdependence 'pon logic.  the premise itself were sound enough. 

 

also, the data covering the immigration issue ain't gonna get much more definitive than numbers released by the US government and Mexican government.  again, show how methodology were wrong.  first you expressed the problem as a leftist bias.  now is a suggestion there simple is no credible data available... which we will recall the next time you claim numbers of or costs related to illegal immigration.  got a long memory.

 

oh, and the linked pew study addressed more than 2009-2014.  please recheck.  they got data going back much further.  gonna give you one more chance to correct your own error.

 

"Russia was pulling for Trump while the American media was pulling for Clinton. Seems fair to me."

 

one can hope this were just another wod hyperbolic brain spasm. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 12, 2017 by Gromnir