Deadfire isn't going to be a "dumbed down" pillars like tyranny is it?

[Gregorovitch]

just checked

 

Tyranny 160,000

Torment Tides 112,000

Pillars Of Eternity nearly 1,000,000 (and that's not including the 2 expansions)

 

that's only on steam

 

Indeed. My take on this is that that devs are looking at what two small vocal minorities are saying and reaching the wrong conclusion and I think these numbers show that. I call these minorities the Grumpy Grizzled Old Grognards (me being a prime example) who go ape at the slightest hint of dumbing down, sorry, making more "accessible" their favourite franchises, and the Whining Entitled Snowflakes who in the case of Pillards whine about per rest abilities, micromanagement and so on.

 

The conclusion reached, one feels, is that the Grumpies will buy your game anyway but you've got to dumb down, sorry, "streamline". to get the Snowflakes on board.

 

I don't think it works like that. The vast majority, the silent majority, play a lot of Witcher 3, Fallout 4 and yer Dishonoureds, Deus Exs and Tomb Raiders etc, in fact they mostly play stuff like that, but they also like to play something with a bit more substance and challenge to it now and again. But they don't have that much time for this kind of game, so they want to play the best examples of cRPG, strategy/4X games, other genres of substance and challenge. With limited time, they want to make sure the time and effort they know they will have to put into a title like that is going pay off, to be worth it, that it's the real deal, the Full Monty.

 

This is why millions played Civ5, well over a million played PoE, and why CK2, five years after release and about as complex a game as you can get for your money, was in the top 10 of the main Steam charts again a week or so ago after selling what, 2m copies now?. It is also why second string games, such as the new Master of Orion 4X, Tyranny and so on, sell a couple of hundred thousand if they are lucky even though they are not that bad. They are just not the real deal, they have been dumbed down (Stop it, Greg!), sorry, made more "accessible" and that's not what people are after. They get that from Deus Ex etc complete with big budget graphics.

 

But how do this huge silent majority know which of these games is the real deal? They know when the Grumpy Grizzled Old Grognards grudgingly grant the game has some merit and the Snowflakes are whining in full chorus. Thhe Grognards grudging approval is a mandatory requirement, but the Snowflakes whining is the clincher. That's when you know you've got a million seller on your hands.  

[Hynkel]

That's obviously a very specific thing, not "consoles = dumb always". But many fans of old-school CRPGs have become extremely suspicious of consolisation, and with good reason. 

 

Console-specific UI are a big issue it's true, but I think the biggest factor that tend to make games more simplistic is the financial risk. You just can't invest $30M in a game who confronts players to a wall of numbers and text in its very first few minutes. There's a reason why in Mass Effect everything is dubbed, and combat looks like Gears of War and it's not just "consoles", but the will to avoid segmented markets.

[Katarack21]

Everything is dubbed because it's superior, but expensive. Full voice acting *FOR THE ****ING WIN*. That's one of the few things PoE could have used, IMHO; more voice acting, always.

[Tigranes]

Most voice acting in games are awful. This would only be a minor problem of personal preference, but it is also well known that voice acting is prohibitely expensive, raising costs for everyone (or having people be disappointed), and this wreaks havoc with the writing process. It is well known that because it would be even more expensive and difficult to redo lines or have actors in the same room bouncing lines off each other, the lines tend to be recorded in complete isolation at some random point, and that writers end up being unable to edit dialogue and writing once the voice acting is locked in. And of course, projects where you get artificial limits on your writing because you have to keep voice costs down.

[Blades of Vanatar]

 

You reckon that there are more 30year olds playing video games then teenagers?

Yes. I'll bet you that 29% of people who play video games are under the age of 18, in fact. Now, a higher percentage of 15 year olds are gamers than 30 year olds, but that's a different statistic entirely.

 

The people who where born in the late 70's through early 90's make up the majority of video game players today. Sheer math makes it so.

Many of us remember playing the text only Infocom games. I couldn't wait for the next Zork game to come out. Planetfall rocked as did Wishbringer. You youngs pup don't know **** about what gaming really is.... now pull up your pants, they call it 'Under'wear for a reason!

 

 

[Katarack21]

 

 

You reckon that there are more 30year olds playing video games then teenagers?

Yes. I'll bet you that 29% of people who play video games are under the age of 18, in fact. Now, a higher percentage of 15 year olds are gamers than 30 year olds, but that's a different statistic entirely.

 

The people who where born in the late 70's through early 90's make up the majority of video game players today. Sheer math makes it so.

Many of us remember playing the text only Infocom games. I couldn't wait for the next Zork game to come out. Planetfall rocked as did Wishbringer. You youngs pup don't know **** about what gaming really is.... now pull up your pants, they call it 'Under'wear for a reason!

 

 

You say that as if I wasn't playing Leather Goddesses of Phobos.

[Silent Winter]

 

Remember, too, that while Skyrim and Tyranny are steam only, Pillars and Torment are sold on GOG too.

Tyranny is also on gog.

Sadly the 50% off coupon for backing PoE2 at a certain tier is Steam-only, otherwise I might be buying it and seeing what all the fuss is about.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Silent Winter

[firkraag888]

 

 

Remember, too, that while Skyrim and Tyranny are steam only, Pillars and Torment are sold on GOG too.

Tyranny is also on gog.

Sadly the 50% off coupon for backing PoE2 at a certain tier is Steam-only, otherwise I might be buying it and seeing what all the fuss is about.

 

your not missing out on much

 

The combat is world of warcfaft style: click ......cooldown.....click.....cooldown......click cooldown

 

when you cast a spell you can choose between a square, circle straight line or a cone and you can make either of those green, red, blue or brown. So its basically ok this time I will cast a brown square, this time a blue circle, this time a red straight line

 

So combat is basically :click..... blue square.......cooldown........click....... red line........cooldown......click.........yellow cone......cooldown..........

 

And then when you level up you get a World of Warcraft style leveling tree (so the little kiddies playing can understand it better) that lets you make your circles, squares, cones and straight lines a little bit better.

 

DUMBED DOWN!!!!!!

Edited March 20, 2017 by firkraag888

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

Remember, too, that while Skyrim and Tyranny are steam only, Pillars and Torment are sold on GOG too.

Tyranny is also on gog.

Sadly the 50% off coupon for backing PoE2 at a certain tier is Steam-only, otherwise I might be buying it and seeing what all the fuss is about.

 

your not missing out on much

 

The combat is world of warcfaft style: click ......cooldown.....click.....cooldown......click cooldown

 

when you cast a spell you can choose between a square, circle straight line or a cone and you can make either of those green, red, blue or brown. So its basically ok this time I will cast a brown square, this time a blue circle, this time a red straight line

 

So combat is basically :click..... blue square.......cooldown........click....... red line........cooldown......click.........yellow cone......cooldown..........

 

And then when you level up you get a World of Warcraft style leveling tree (so the little kiddies playing can understand it better) that lets you make you circles, squares, cones and straight lines a bit better.

 

DUMBED DOWN!!!!!!

 

"

when you cast a spell you can choose between a square, circle straight line or a cone and you can make either of those green, red, blue or brown. So its basically ok this time I will cast a brown square, this time a blue circle, this time a red straight line"

 

You missed a *LOT* of spell sigils, didn't you?

[Aleh1811]

 

Pillars of eternity (like baldurs gate 2) is a complex game. With a target audience probably consisting of ex infinity engine players, ex D&D players and people in the age bracket of 16-40 year olds.

 

Im assuming that the bulk of video games sales goes to a target audience of 8-18 year olds.

 

Of course I'm concerned that obsidian would dumb the game down to target this bigger market. I was simply comparing sales of skyrim and witcher because in my opinion both skyrim and witcher are dumbed down RPGs

Gameplay complexity has nothing to do with the players' age.

 

Complexity has something to do with willingness to invest time and effort into understanding something. A lot of people here got into IE games when they were younger and had much more free time. Now they are older, have a job, kids maybe ; but they play PoE for the nostalgia factor, and since they beat Baldu'rs Gate a million times, playing something like PoE doesn't require the same amount of intellectual investment and "risk taking" (as in, putting money in a game you might not like) as the average player.

 

But the very same BG Veterans demographic probably wouldn't play other complex games they're less familiar with (say, Guilty Gear). Because they don't have anymore the amount of free time they had when they knew every single spell from the DnD rulebooks. 

 

That's the niche game curse. You just don't suddenly become invested in a demanding genre at 40. It takes decades of investment and passion to build such a demographic.

 

I agree. Its very time related. I used to have be able to have an amazing time with large complex games when I was a teenager. Now I always have the feeling that i am negletiing some sort of responsibility when i play them, The only games I play right now are short and action oriented, specially if i can play with friends. Games that require minimal time investment and provide some simple escapism or the opportunity to share time with people i like. I still played this game and will play the sequel simply because baldurs gate 2 (and an obscure pretty bad game called "azure dreams") were basically my childhood. But even the way I play the game has changed. No more long playing sessions.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Aleh1811

[Katarack21]

 

 

Pillars of eternity (like baldurs gate 2) is a complex game. With a target audience probably consisting of ex infinity engine players, ex D&D players and people in the age bracket of 16-40 year olds.

 

Im assuming that the bulk of video games sales goes to a target audience of 8-18 year olds.

 

Of course I'm concerned that obsidian would dumb the game down to target this bigger market. I was simply comparing sales of skyrim and witcher because in my opinion both skyrim and witcher are dumbed down RPGs

Gameplay complexity has nothing to do with the players' age.

 

Complexity has something to do with willingness to invest time and effort into understanding something. A lot of people here got into IE games when they were younger and had much more free time. Now they are older, have a job, kids maybe ; but they play PoE for the nostalgia factor, and since they beat Baldu'rs Gate a million times, playing something like PoE doesn't require the same amount of intellectual investment and "risk taking" (as in, putting money in a game you might not like) as the average player.

 

But the very same BG Veterans demographic probably wouldn't play other complex games they're less familiar with (say, Guilty Gear). Because they don't have anymore the amount of free time they had when they knew every single spell from the DnD rulebooks. 

 

That's the niche game curse. You just don't suddenly become invested in a demanding genre at 40. It takes decades of investment and passion to build such a demographic.

 

I agree. Its very time related. I used to have be able to have an amazing time with large complex games when I was a teenager. Now I always have the feeling that i am negletiing some sort of responsibility when i play them, The only games I play right now are short and action oriented, specially if i can play with friends. Games that require minimal time investment and provide some simple escapism or the opportunity to share time with people i like. I still played this game and will play the sequel simply because baldurs gate 2 (and an obscure pretty bad game called "azure dreams") were basically my childhood. But even the way I play the game has changed. No more long playing sessions.

 

Am I the only one who plays PoE because it's a good game and I enjoy it, and not because it's similar to a game I played 20 years ago?

[Aleh1811]

 

 

 

Pillars of eternity (like baldurs gate 2) is a complex game. With a target audience probably consisting of ex infinity engine players, ex D&D players and people in the age bracket of 16-40 year olds.

 

Im assuming that the bulk of video games sales goes to a target audience of 8-18 year olds.

 

Of course I'm concerned that obsidian would dumb the game down to target this bigger market. I was simply comparing sales of skyrim and witcher because in my opinion both skyrim and witcher are dumbed down RPGs

Gameplay complexity has nothing to do with the players' age.

 

Complexity has something to do with willingness to invest time and effort into understanding something. A lot of people here got into IE games when they were younger and had much more free time. Now they are older, have a job, kids maybe ; but they play PoE for the nostalgia factor, and since they beat Baldu'rs Gate a million times, playing something like PoE doesn't require the same amount of intellectual investment and "risk taking" (as in, putting money in a game you might not like) as the average player.

 

But the very same BG Veterans demographic probably wouldn't play other complex games they're less familiar with (say, Guilty Gear). Because they don't have anymore the amount of free time they had when they knew every single spell from the DnD rulebooks. 

 

That's the niche game curse. You just don't suddenly become invested in a demanding genre at 40. It takes decades of investment and passion to build such a demographic.

 

I agree. Its very time related. I used to have be able to have an amazing time with large complex games when I was a teenager. Now I always have the feeling that i am negletiing some sort of responsibility when i play them, The only games I play right now are short and action oriented, specially if i can play with friends. Games that require minimal time investment and provide some simple escapism or the opportunity to share time with people i like. I still played this game and will play the sequel simply because baldurs gate 2 (and an obscure pretty bad game called "azure dreams") were basically my childhood. But even the way I play the game has changed. No more long playing sessions.

 

Am I the only one who plays PoE because it's a good game and I enjoy it, and not because it's similar to a game I played 20 years ago?

 

 

I also think its good and I enjoyed it. But i would have never bought such a long game if i didnt know it was very similar to the one i enjoyed when i was a kid.

 

I have lots of things to spend my time on. And lately for me gaming is a low priority. Long games for me already seem quite daunting. So the fact that i knew exactly what i was getting in to really made the choice simpler.

[firkraag888]

 

As much as I like boarding hate trains and bashing people for their preferences, can we stop? I hate Call of Duty as much as the next non-military shooter guy, but I don't think that is the point here. Whether Skyrim or Witcher are RPGs (hint: they absolutely are and suggesting they aren't is an extremely stupid idea) shouldn't really matter for Deadfire, should it?

 

Steamspy, from which I assume the Steam sales numbers are from, does count backers. Strictly speaking, it measures owners, not buyers. Valve doesn't release sales numbers and GOG doesn't either to my knowledge. GOG also doesn't have a Steamspy equivalent.

Adding to that, since backers can choose to use GOG rather than Steam (like I did), it's hard to deduct the actual number of buyers vs. backers.

Of *course* they're RPG's. That's plainly obvious. You know what else is plainly obvious? That they're RPG's with a very different targeted demographic then PoE and that such things influence sales.

 

I wasn't saying anything positive or negative about CoD or Skyrim. I love Skyrim, and I don't play FPS games but have nothing against CoD. I was simply noting a distinction in targeted audiences vs CRPG's like Pillars and stating an anecdotal account of my personal observations about demographic overlap between CoD and Skyrim.

 

im not bagging out first person shooters by the way. My 2 favourite games at the moment are Pillars and Doom.

 

Doom is frickin awesome. Highly recommend you try if you havent

[Hertzila]

im not bagging out first person shooters by the way. My 2 favourite games at the moment are Pillars and Doom.

 

Doom is frickin awesome. Highly recommend you try if you havent

 

Doom is great, both the new and old. I'm actually more of an older style FPS guy than RPG guy. Deus Ex: The Original is my "BEST GAEM EVAR" rather than Planescape: Torment or either Fallout.

 

However, I don't think their quality or success matters to Deadfire. Neither does Call of Duty's, or Skyrim's. I highly doubt Witcher's does either. They're all for differerent demographics with various degrees of overlap. I'd expect Obsidian to realize that and stop themselves from overreaching. Or at least I'd hope so.

[Katarack21]

I'm not a fan of FPS games. I've played my fair share of hybrids, though; what I call first-person role-playing shooters, like Bioshock and Borderlands and such. I'm not strictly an isometric CRPG grognard; hell, is anybody?! Obsidian has done hybrids like that before; they are open to the idea of experimenting in their genre, but I think they know the target audience for this franchise.

[eselle28]

 

Am I the only one who plays PoE because it's a good game and I enjoy it, and not because it's similar to a game I played 20 years ago?

 

I play it because it's a good game and I enjoy it, but I paid attention to its Kickstarter because it's in the same gaming genre as a number of games I played 20 years ago and I felt quite sure that it would be a good game and I'd enjoy it.

 

I have some friends who are enough younger that KOTOR was their first RPG, and while we enjoy a lot of the same AAA titles, they found the concept of POE to be pretty far from any of their gaming reference points. It had nothing to do with perceived complexity or time commitment. Given how many games there are available and people's limited budgets and schedules, it's a bit of a leap of faith for people to get invested in a game that's both unfamiliar and a bit niche. I wouldn't be surprised if the average POE and Deadfire backer is a bit older than the average gamer, who as others have pointed out, is already quite a bit older than the outdated assumption of a teenage boy.

 

On the other hand, one of those same people later bought the game after spending some time tablet gaming and getting used to the 2D look. I think that bodes well for the series in the future, especially if Deadfire's reviews end up being as positive as POE's.

Edited March 20, 2017 by eselle28

[firkraag888]

I probably would have never noticed pillars had I not played bg2 15 years ago

[firkraag888]

just checked

 

Tyranny 160,000

Torment Tides 112,000

Pillars Of Eternity nearly 1,000,000 (and that's not including the 2 expansions)

 

that's only on steam

This is very interesting. It's looking like the so called " new generation " of CRPGS eg pillars , tyranny and torment aren't really doing that well apart from pillars and divinity OS. I'm no game finance expert but you would think tyranny and torment would be lucky to break even. If those torment figures include the copies that where given away to the backers then it is looking like torment was a complete disaster.

 

This is good and bad. The good part is hopefully if more crpgs are made the games will be more like pillars. The bad news is developers may give up on them again and try and pursue bigger profits with games that appeal more to the masses.

Edited March 20, 2017 by firkraag888

[Sedrefilos]

Tyranny is nice experiment. Maybe that's why it didn't sell so good? Short game (for an rpg), epxerimental mechanics, not a real world to go and explore, just small areas that are situation focused etc. But it isn't dumbed down -it just uses a different system than PIllars- it has very good writing and choice-and-concequence variety which shouts "hey, Im short but I have many outcomes! Come play me again and find out!".

 

Also "dumbed-down" is *very* derogative term. Are you implying people who enjoyed the game are dumb? I'll start being impolite...

[firkraag888]

Tyranny is nice experiment. Maybe that's why it didn't sell so good? Short game (for an rpg), epxerimental mechanics, not a real world to go and explore, just small areas that are situation focused etc. But it isn't dumbed down -it just uses a different system than PIllars- it has very good writing and choice-and-concequence variety which shouts "hey, Im short but I have many outcomes! Come play me again and find out!".

 

Also "dumbed-down" is *very* derogative term. Are you implying people who enjoyed the game are dumb? I'll start being impolite...

If I or anyone else on this forum thought you where dumb (wich I don't) or called you dumb you should be a secure enough person to not let it effect you.

 

Sticks and stones may break my bones.........

 

Jeesuz that is an "Insecure" post if ive ever seen one toughen up dude (or gal)

Edited March 20, 2017 by firkraag888

[Sedrefilos]

I'm secure enough, thank you, and I've been called worst things directly from people in this forum but I don't care on personal matter. But this whole "dumbing down" talk implies generalization and superiority and I'm starting to dislike the term (not that I ever liked it to begin with). And no matter how sure I feel for myself, it's always irritating to hear derogatory generalizations. If you hear someone talking racist in the bus, won't you call them out even if you're not a target? It's not about me, it's about people thing they're better because they do A and think that others that doing the B they don't like, are dumb (or whatever).

[Gregorovitch]

I'm secure enough, thank you, and I've been called worst things directly from people in this forum but I don't care on personal matter. But this whole "dumbing down" talk implies generalization and superiority and I'm starting to dislike the term (not that I ever liked it to begin with). And no matter how sure I feel for myself, it's always irritating to hear derogatory generalizations. If you hear someone talking racist in the bus, won't you call them out even if you're not a target? It's not about me, it's about people thing they're better because they do A and think that others that doing the B they don't like, are dumb (or whatever).

 

The term "dumbed down" is not meant in a perjorative way, at least as far as I am concenred, as in "game is dumbed down for filthy casuals". Not everyone wants all their games, or any of their games for that matter, to be complex, challenging and hardcore, and there is no reason on earth why they should either and no reason to critisise them for it.

 

The point is that the most successful cRPGs by far from the new RPG Renaisance, Pillars and Divinity Original SIn, are uncompromisingly hardcore  whilst those that have been dumbed down (I told you already Greg, Stop it!!!), er sorry, "streamlined", have been much less successfull. Other majot surprise successes such as Factorio, Stardew Valley and Rimworld that are similarly complex, challenging and harcore, serve to emphasise the point.

 

The brunt of the "dumbed down" slight is therefore aimed at developers who believe they have to do it to reach a wider audience when in fact it does precisely the opposite and seriously ticks off longterm fans to boot, leading to widespread critisism from this often very vocal hardcore fanbase across the interwebs which further depresses sales.

 

It is aimed at the devs, not some sort of notion of "filthy casuals" and , as far as I am concerned anyways, it is certainly not aimed at you for enjoying Tyranny.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Gregorovitch

[algroth]

Yeah, I don't get where the "dumbed-down" accusations come for Tyranny myself, but that aside, Deadfire will not resemble it at all. This has already been addressed by Josh, he says there are elements he likes about Tyranny and will be employing, but mostly regarding some out-of-combat touches like the lore highlights in text and such. Cooldowns, combo abilities, spell creation system and the likes won't be implemented.

[algroth]

 

I'm secure enough, thank you, and I've been called worst things directly from people in this forum but I don't care on personal matter. But this whole "dumbing down" talk implies generalization and superiority and I'm starting to dislike the term (not that I ever liked it to begin with). And no matter how sure I feel for myself, it's always irritating to hear derogatory generalizations. If you hear someone talking racist in the bus, won't you call them out even if you're not a target? It's not about me, it's about people thing they're better because they do A and think that others that doing the B they don't like, are dumb (or whatever).

 

The term "dumbed down" is not meant in a perjorative way, at least as far as I am concenred, as in "game is dumbed down for filthy casuals". Not everyone wants all their games, or any of their games for that matter, to be complex, challenging and hardcore, and there is no reason on earth why they should either and no reason to critisise them for it.

 

The point is that the most successful cRPGs by far from the new RPG Renaisance, Pillars and Divinity Original SIn, are uncompromisingly hardcore  whilst those that have been dumbed down (I told you already Greg, Stop it!!!), er sorry, "streamlined", have been much less successfull.

 

The brunt of the "dumbed down" slight is therefore aimed at developers who believe they have to do it to reach a wider audience when in fact it does precisely the opposite and seriously ticks off longterm fans to boot, leading to widespread critisism from this harcore fanbase across the interwebs which further depresses sales.

 

It is aimed at the devs, not some sort of notion of "filthy casuals" and , as far as I am concerned anyways, it is certainly not aimed at you for enjoying Tyranny.

 

Why do you find it dumbed down or streamlined, though? I will agree that it was not very challenging in terms of combat, but that can be chalked more to poor balancing than bad or "easier" mechanics. Also it's hard to claim a game like Tyranny is aiming for a "wide audience" when it is so overtly working towards disturbing and morally challenging the player, in a Milgram sort of way almost. This game is pretty much inherently working against mass appeal.

[Sedrefilos]

@Gregorovitch and firkraag888

 

I know how it is used by many, though not all, I know for fact that others use it literalily. And I am sure many just parrot the word because it's hip in the gaming "world" without caring what it implies. But if you don't mean it as derogatory, then don't use the word. The word by itself has derogatory meaning.

 

Also, even if you don'e mean it as to belittle people, it's unclear what you mean by using this word. Like I open the thread and I see someone saying "dumbed down" and pointing at Tyranny. Not the best game ever but not the simplest one either. I'm pretty sure most people don't think it is a "dumbed down" game. They might say so about Mass Effect for example. Hardoce rpg players think they're really special don't they? Because they like complex games that are "smart" and not "dumb ones" like in consoles. Because, yeah, one that plays a "simple game" is dumb and incapable of doing complex things because gaming is all that matters. That's what "dumb down" implies.

Well, fakk this term. If you want to discuss Pillars 2 mechanics compared to Tyranny or whatever other game do just that. Say "will Pillars 2 have cooldown mechanics like Tyranny did? Because I don't like them for the a,b,c reasons". That's the way you do it and from then on we can have a normal conversation.

But gamers are gamers I suppose. Whatever "gamer" means...

Edited March 20, 2017 by Sedrefilos